Why do Californians

[Graybeard6]

always preference highway numbers by "the"?
In the rest of the civilized world, we would say "take Highway 1 to State Route 25 to I-95." In California ones drives "the 205" or "the 10."Maybe Gillian knows why.

[01101001]

always preference highway numbers by "the"?
In the rest of the civilized world, we would say "take Highway 1 to State Route 25 to I-95." In California ones drives "the 205" or "the 10."Maybe Gillian knows why.

No. No. No. Argh.

That's a southern Californianism. (But it's not unknown in other parts of the country or world. Just don't lump all of California together on that one.)

[Musashi]

We have a tendency to call them local names too. For example, the 22 can be the Garden Grove Freeway and the 405 can be the San Diego Freeway (even though it doesn't go to San Diego) or the Long Beach Freeway. I absolutely hate it. Do they do this elsewhere?

[sarongsong]

Isn't freeway pretty much a California word for highway, thruway, etc. compared to the rest of the country?

[hhEb09'1]

Isn't freeway pretty much a California word for highway, thruway, etc. compared to the rest of the country?I thought freeway contrasted with tollway, sometimes side by side.

[sarongsong]

Ah, maybe that's how the term originated.
Tollways are a relatively new phenomonon, freeway history-wise in Southern California, tho, and privately held.
Is the term "freeway" used in NC?

[Van Rijn]

I'm in Sacramento (that's Northern California for those in other parts of the world). I don't prefix freeway names with "the." And we usually call them freeways around here, though they are paid for by taxes. There are toll bridges and such in the Bay Area but tollways are relatively uncommon in California.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Well, well...

We say "the" up here, as well. The 401, The Queensway, The Trans-Canada Highway, etc. And here's a headscratcher: surface streets are legally defined as highways and freeways are not, but surface streets are never referred to as highways, while freeways always are.

Go figure.

[hhEb09'1]

Just a quick google picked up Brookshire Freeway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NC_16) and John Belk Freeway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_277_(North_Carolina)) in Charlotte. The Durham Freeway goes through uh Durham. Also, List of Dallas-Fort Worth area freeways (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dallas-Fort_Worth_area_freeways) mentions State Highway 161; freeway/tollway passing between Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport and Irving. Which reminds me of the toll way between Washington DC and Dulles that parallels the old free/high way.

[Gillianren]

Well, you know, it is "the" whatever.

I'll also note, as a former Southern Californian (though one who never had certain vocal mannerisms), that we don't always use "the," either. As in "I-5," which we never called "the I-5." "PCH," not "the PCH." (That's "Pacific Coast Highway.") I'll further note that even up here in Washington, you get "Where I-5 meets the 405." It's certainly not exclusive to the Greater Los Angeles Area.

In case you're curious, here's the distinction. "Pacific Coast Highway" is a name. "Interstate 5" is a name. "210" is not. It's just a designation.

[Maksutov]

(Re Musashi's We have a tendency to call them local names too.)
Same thing in NYC. You'll get laughed at if you mention interstate route numbers. Instead it's the Cross Bronx Expressway, Bruckner Boulevard, LIE, etc.

[sarongsong]

Hmmh, I always mentally pictured the term as "free of traffic/stop lights".
Applying "the" to individual named or numbered routes, may have derived from referring to the entire system as "the freeway", as in "Just take the freeway to get there [wherever]".
"The 210" is also known as The Foothill Freeway.

[hhEb09'1]

Hmmh, I always mentally pictured the term as "free of traffic/stop lights". This wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeway) quotes a USAn Federal Manual and says that you are rightIn the United States, a freeway is defined by the federal government’s Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices as a divided highway with full control of access.[6] This means two things. First, adjoining property owners do not have a legal right of access, meaning that they cannot connect their lands to the highway by constructing driveways, although frontage roads provide access to properties adjacent to a freeway in many places.[7] When an existing road is converted into a freeway, all existing driveways must be removed and access to adjacent private lands must be blocked with fences or walls. Second, traffic on the highway is "free-flowing", although many non-engineers misinterpret the "free" in "freeway" to mean that such a highway must be free of charge to use.
Still, since most tollways have had intermittantly spaced toll booths, rather than at each and every access point, that might mean a tollway is not usually considered a freeway. By coincidence. :)

[Jens]

always preference highway numbers by "the"?
In the rest of the civilized world, we would say "take Highway 1 to State Route 25 to I-95." In California ones drives "the 205" or "the 10."Maybe Gillian knows why.

Actually, I think you could write a rather large book about the use of "the" with geographical names in English. Why do we say "The Mekong River" but not "The Sherwood Forest"? Why do we say "The Sudan" but not "The Iran"? Don't ask me. I think a lot of time it's just usage. So I don't think there's any reason why some people say it that way.

By the way, there are many languages in the world that don't even have a definite article like "the". Most Asian languages lack articles, so the problem doesn't arise.

And actually, in many places in the "civilized world" it would sound even stranger, things like: Prenez le Highway 1, et prenez le I-95 quand vous arrivez au State Route 25. :)

(Sorry for the poor French in advance!)

[sarongsong]

In true California fa$hion, tho, our tollways are freeways, built to accommodate developers who, by law, can't begin building until the road structures are in place and can't wait for the State, whose road-building funds keep getting re-allocated to the general fund, to get around to it.

[Gillianren]

The funny thing is, both of the freeways we have here are also back home. (In fact, the freeway I'm closest to is known as PCH back home but doesn't have a name up here.)

[Moose]

*grumble* Let's try this again. Apparently lost my last attempt to post to network trouble of some sort.

I don't know about Western Canada, but from Ontario eastward, it's very common to hear "the Trans-Canada", "the Twenty", "the Bypass" and such. It's very common among French Canadians as well: "la Trans", "la Quinze", etc. Not using the appropriate definite article is very much the exception.

I suspect part of it is that our highway titles are never prefaced by terms like "Interstate" or "I-". That changes how the words flow a bit.

[JohnD]

That's not exclusively Califirornia-speak !
That's good English!

In the UK we refer to the A1, the M6, the B2345 or whatever.
Strangely, it would seem natural to me to take for instance Highway 47, if we had such things. I suspect is is someting to do with way the abbreviated name - "Get your kicks on Motorway 6" just doesn't work, although "You'll be fine on the M9" would - well sort of.

John

[farmerjumperdon]

Then there is expressway. In Chicago, there are a few, my favorite being the Dan Ryan. Anybody used to driving it knows that The Dan Ryan and expressway are opposite terms. There is nothing express about it.

Never thought about the fact that up here in the Twin Cities, very few of the major highways have formal, or even informal names. In Chicago they have The Dan Ryan, The Stevenson, The Tri-State, etc. And most everybody puts The in front of them in conversation.

[Matherly]

Here in Arizona (which touches So-Cal, I should mention) its a hodge-podge.

We have "The" One-Oh-One
We have "Sixty" (ala Take a right on Sixty")
We have I10 (ala take the "Eye-Ten" exit and go West)

[triplebird]

It's a hodge-podge here in Utah too...perhaps the SoCal influence (which we have plenty of) has made its mark on the highway vernacular. There seems to be a general rule though: If you refer to the highway in question by number, there is no article; if referred to by a name then the article is included.

For example:
The 21st South Freeway (a psuedo-interstate/parkway road that runs easr to west through the central Salt Lake Valley) or

The Bangerter Highway (belt-route style road with at-grade intersections and traffic lights--but a 55-60 mph speed limit!)

but

Interstate 15
State Highway 201
US Route 6

[SeanF]

In case you're curious, here's the distinction. "Pacific Coast Highway" is a name. "Interstate 5" is a name. "210" is not. It's just a designation.
What about "I-210"?

I don't think there are any street/highway designations around here that we use with "the." There's just I-29, I-90, and I-229. :)

[mickal555]

We prefix it the here to, eg. "The bruce highway"

Goes all around the country and is a freeway most the time.

[pghnative]

I thought freeway contrasted with tollway, sometimes side by side.
Actually, the first freeway was a tollway. Look it up... (at least, here in the US)

Edit - I see you corrected yourself. But even by the standards quoted (PS, the link doesn't work), the first freeway was indeed a freeway, even though it was a tollway.:lol:

[The Supreme Canuck]

Strangely, it would seem natural to me to take for instance Highway 47, if we had such things.

That's how it works here.

"I'm driving on highway 417."
"I'm driving on the 417."

Both are common.

[Tucson_Tim]

Here in Arizona (which touches So-Cal, I should mention) its a hodge-podge.

We have "The" One-Oh-One
We have "Sixty" (ala Take a right on Sixty")
We have the I10 (ala take the "Eye-Ten" exit and go West)

That's in Phoenix. Here in Tucson we don't do that . . . yet. :)

[Peter Wilson]

Don't blame it on Kalifornians :naughty:

It started long ago with The Hague...

[Matherly]

That's in Phoenix. Here in Tucson we don't do that . . . yet. :)

Well, that's true. I probibly shouldn't have said "Arizona" since I can't speak for the rest of the state.

[Gillianren]

What about "I-210"?

I don't think there are any street/highway designations around here that we use with "the." There's just I-29, I-90, and I-229. :)

I-210 would not take an article, but we never call it that. At least, no one I know did. It was just the 210.

And again, it's perfectly grammatically correct. I don't know why everyone's having such a fit over this.

[mike alexander]

Then there's 'turnpike', which goes back, what 500 years or so?

[Eta C]

Well, out here in the Heart of Darkness many of the major surface streets are called "Pike" or Turnpike." Leesburg Pike, Columbia Pike, and Little River Turnpike all come to mind.

[Gillianren]

Sounds like Olympia and parkways. (Before someone asks: it comes from the other meaning of "park," the kind with trees and things. Granted, all streets of Olympia have trees and things; from the highest point in town, practically all you can see above the trees is the Capitol. At any rate, it has nothing to do with "park" in the sense of "stop your car from moving.")

[Maksutov]

[edit]The Bangerter Highway (belt-route style road with at-grade intersections and traffic lights--but a 55-60 mph speed limit!)...Has there been a helicopter rerporter who, while covering a fender bender there, succumbed to the temptation of describing it as "a mashie on Bangerter!"?

[Eta C]

Sounds like Olympia and parkways. (Before someone asks: it comes from the other meaning of "park," the kind with trees and things. Granted, all streets of Olympia have trees and things; from the highest point in town, practically all you can see above the trees is the Capitol. At any rate, it has nothing to do with "park" in the sense of "stop your car from moving.")


Oh, we've got our share of those too. The George Washington Parkway, the Clara Barton Parkway, the aptly named Baltimore-Washington Parkway (a road probably very familiar to To Seek), the Fairfax County Parkway and so on.

Still, this leaves out one of the strangest names for a road I've encountered. One of the main drags through Arlington (it runs right by RR National Airport) is the Jefferson Davis Highway. I can understand naming schools for R.E. Lee here, and even Stonewall Jackson, but naming a highway for Jefferson Davis?

[The Supreme Canuck]

And again, it's perfectly grammatically correct. I don't know why everyone's having such a fit over this.

It is odd, to say the least. I've never even considered that it could be any other way.

[triplebird]

Has there been a helicopter rerporter who, while covering a fender bender there, succumbed to the temptation of describing it as "a mashie on Bangerter!"?

:lol:

I'll suggest that to the local radio stations.

Though, I dunno how many people in Utah even know what "bangers and mash" is (are?)

[Hydro]

Okay, but why do we drive on parkways and park on driveways?

Hmmm?

[Gillianren]

Okay, but why do we drive on parkways and park on driveways?

Hmmm?

I think someone told us the first part of that earlier in the thread. I wonder who it could be . . . .

[Hydro]

I think someone told us the first part of that earlier in the thread. I wonder who it could be . . . .

I just couldn't resist a Steven Wright one-liner.

[Gillianren]

I just couldn't resist a Steven Wright one-liner.

Oh, believe me, hundreds of comedians have thought that's funny. I don't. Then again, I know the answer.

[hhEb09'1]

Actually, the first freeway was a tollway. Look it up... (at least, here in the US)You must be talking about the Pennsylvania Turnpike? Is there a historical sign commemorating it in Pittsburg?
Edit - I see you corrected yourself. But even by the standards quoted (PS, the link doesn't work), the first freeway was indeed a freeway, even though it was a tollway.:lol:Sorry, I went back and added the link (it wasn't broke, it was non-existent! :) ). Here is is: Freeway wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeway).

[pghnative]

You must be talking about the Pennsylvania Turnpike? Exactly. Built in the late 1930s, I think.

Is there a historical sign commemorating it in Pittsburg? Pittsburg, Kansas or Pittsburg, California?? I doubt it.

Oh, did you mean Pittsburgh??:lol: Yes, there probably is.

(In the late 1800s, Congress tried to either pass and/or enforce a uniform spelling act, wherein all towns with those phonics at the end of their name would be spelled "...burg". And there are a lot of historical references to my native city with that spelling. But somewhere along the line we thumbed our noses at Congress and kept the "burgh" spelling. I think Pittsburgh is unique among US cities that way.)

[The Supreme Canuck]

You still pronounce it wrong. Think "Edinburgh."

;)

[Graybeard6]

My natal commonwealth has defied the spelling police in other ways. Any town not chartered as a city is a borough. Around the same time as some entity (I think it was the Postal Department) decreed that the terminal "h" was to no longer be used, it was decided that "ugh" was also verboten. The only town that I can think of offhand that complied was Edinboro. At least its pronunciation is close to the Scottish!