Confronting rude behavior in public: a do or a don't?

[Paracelsus]

Ok, I have another OP for members: Is it ever ok to confront someone who is behaving rudely in public? If so, under what circumstances is it ok?

I ask this because of two things: 1) a personal rule of mine, and 2) an experience tonight.

Addressing point 1: When I encounter rude behavior in public, I usually say and do nothing, unless such behavior significantly inconveniences me or hurts me in some way.

This brings me to Point 2: Tonight, Hubby and I went out to eat at a wonderful restaurant (Blue Duck Tavern) and had a very nice meal and overall pleasant experience...until the very end. We had finished our meal and indicated to the waiter that we wanted the check. He gave us the check and then went over to the table behind us, where this couple had just sat down. Hubby took out his credit card and put it in the container with the check. We were just waiting for our waiter to pick it up and run the card so we could go. Meanwhile, the couple behind engaged the waiter in this long convo that must have lasted at least 15 min. while we were sitting there waiting. Then that same couple started going over the several page winelist with the waiter--page by page.

We sat there for about 20 min before our waiter was able to break free of that couple to come over to take our card, run it, and come back with the receipt. That entire process took 30 sec., start to finish. The couple, meanwhile, were blithely unaware of the inconvenience they had just caused.

I was fuming.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I wrote them the folllowing note on a napkin: 'While you were engaging the waiter in an extended conversation, we were waiting for him to pick up our check. Thank you for your inconsideration!'

I tossed the napkin on their table on our way out the door. They laughed, of course, like the j-holes they were.

Hubby was p***ed. I say too effin' bad!

What do y'all think?

[Ilya]

If I were you, I would not use the napkin. I would LOUDLY apologize to the waiter for what anal orifices the other couple are. In fact, once I did exactly that in a similar situation.

[Noclevername]

Don't let the conversation drag on. Don't be afraid to interrupt the waiter whose job is not to have entertaining conversations but to serve customers and say, "I'm sorry to interrupt, but we're in kind of a hurry. Could you take care of our bill, please?"

[Tucson_Tim]

Sounds like the waiter's fault to me. The other couple may not have known you were waiting on the waiter.

In either case, I always go on what my Dad told me: "Son, don't go looking for trouble. Trouble will find you often enough."

In other words: "Don't sweat the little things". And in the scheme of life and death, being delayed a few mins in a restaurant is surely a little thing.

[Noclevername]

Sounds like the waiter's fault to me.
:clap:
Bingo. A waiter who stops for twenty minutes to chew the fat after having just dropped off a bill at another table deserves his walking papers.

[Maksutov]

I would have found the headwaiter, Maitre'De, whoever was in charge, and asked him/her to please take my paperwork from the waiter over there who's supposed to be processing our bill, but instead has been chewing the fat for the last 15 minutes. Once the bill had been run, the subtotal for the meal would wind up being the total paid.

[Lianachan]

There was only one waiter working in the place?

[novaderrik]

i probably would have walked over to the table and inserted myself into the conversation by gently reminding the waiter that he was going to get a tip right up until he blew us off..

[01101001]

I tossed the napkin on their table on our way out the door. They laughed, of course, like the j-holes they were.

Sorry, but I would probably have laughed at you too for failing to assert yourself and then picking the wrong target to vent on.

Am I a j-hole? What is a j-hole?

[Maksutov]

Sorry, but I would probably have laughed at you too for failing to assert yourself and then picking the wrong target to vent on.

Am I a j-hole? What is a j-hole?You used to see one at the end of every The Man Show.

BTW, my actions would have been taken only after having been repeatedly ignored by the waiter who was supposed to be processing the bill.

[soylentgreen]

This all sounds very familiar. Some time back, in one thread or another, some forum members got to carping about service in one bookstore or another.

I get the impression that quite a few people in this forum have never actually worked in any kind of service related business.

In a culture afflicted with an epidemic of severe self-entitlement, I could see two years of mandatory occupation in a retail or food service environment as a healthy way to give the over-accomodated a little perspective. Gives a glimpse of what you look like from the other side of the counter.

First the op believed the other table must be at fault, flag number one. Second the op asked for advice on dealing with rude behavior when they were, in fact, the only party(at least according to the anecdote)to actually act rude, flag number two.

Curiously, when you ordered your food, did you glance around the restaurant to see if anyone else was being "neglected"?

[TriangleMan]

What do y'all think?
Based on your story it wasn't the couples' fault, it was the waiter's fault as the waiter should have stopped the conversation with a "excuse me for a sec I've just got to process this check, I'll be right back". Thus you were rude to the couple for no reason. They were probably laughing at the irony. Also, your husband did not want you to write a note to the couple but you rebuffed him, which angered him.

So I think you should apologize to your husband, and to the couple if you ever see them again.

[Tobin Dax]

In a culture afflicted with an epidemic of severe self-entitlement, I could see two years of mandatory occupation in a retail or food service environment as a healthy way to give the over-accomodated a little perspective. Gives a glimpse of what you look like from the other side of the counter.
:lol:
That's gotta be against the Geneva Convention or some other law preventing harsh punishment.

[sarongsong]

You wann'a get a waitri's attention? Leave without paying---works every time!http://bautforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Palomar]

Sorry for that unpleasant ending to an otherwise enjoyable evening.

It was the waiter's fault. He's paid to see to the comfort and convenience of patrons. He knew you were ready to pay and leave, and once the other couple continued rambling and yapping he should have said, "Could you please excuse me one moment? I'll be right back--" Then they could easily see he was checking you guys out.

In that situation we'd have tried to get another waiter's attention. If that failed we would have picked up the check, gotten up and headed for the front entrance to speak to head waiter and/or manager.

And no 10% tip for the inconsiderate waiter.

[Paracelsus]

So I think you should apologize to your husband, and to the couple if you ever see them again.

I think the consensus here is that this was the waiter's fault, and I must agree. In hindsight, I should have gone to the maitre-d' and complained instead of dropping the note.

TriangleMan, I've already apologized to my husband. As for the other couple, I owe them nothing.

[Argos]

If a waiter leaves you waiting on the check out, just get up and start walking to the exit door. He´ll be after you in no time.

[Jens]

If a waiter leaves you waiting on the check out, just get up and start walking to the exit door. He´ll be after you in no time.

It seems to me there is a deep Brazilian wisdom in this statement. I think this is a wonderful statement of the problem. And yes, I agree with most others that the problem is the waiter, not the other couple.

[Paracelsus]

If a waiter leaves you waiting on the check out, just get up and start walking to the exit door. He´ll be after you in no time.


Done! :lol:

[Paracelsus]

Curiously, when you ordered your food, did you glance around the restaurant to see if anyone else was being "neglected"?

We didn't take 20 minutes to order our food; we took at most 1 minute. We were polite and friendly, but also succinct and to the point. The waiter is not there to be one's best friend, counsellor, or dietician. The waiter is there to take your food order. One should be polite and friendly, but one should also remember that he/she is also serving others and not take up more of his/her time than is absolutely necessary.

I always assume that my waiter has other tables to wait on and that he/she is extremely busy. I HAVE been a waitress before, so that was why I was reluctant to heap blame on our waiter, as he had been very prompt and courteous up to that point.

I have a story related to this: Hubby and I went to my mom's house for Xmas dinner. As her stove was busted, we all went out to the Hilton for Xmas Day brunch. As you can imagine, the restaurant was packed, and the poor waiters/waitresses were having to do triple duty busing tables, seating people, and serving food. We had to wait quite a while before we were seated, in consequence.

After we were seated, our waitress came over to take our drink orders. My mom, who is normally polite to a fault but loves to yak, launches into this long-winded one-sided convo about how hubby and I drove down from DC, what our trip itinerary was, how tiring that must be, what her own plans for Xmas were, how hard it must be to have to work on Xmas Day, etc. Meanwhile, a huge load of people were piling up at the door, waiting patiently but giving every passing waitress/waiter increasingly anxious looks. After 10 minutes of listening to my mom run off at the mouth to our poor waitress and watching the line of people waiting to be served grow geometrically, I and my grumbling stomach could stand no more. I said, 'Excuse me, mom. Sorry to interrupt, but could we order? I'm pretty hungry, and I don't want to keep our waitress.' My mom immediately apologized, we ordered expeditiously, and our waitress moved off to wait on other people.

The point of this story is that, while the waiter and maitre d' from last night were principally at fault, responsibility also lies with the other couple. This couple obviously did not even consider the fact that their waiter was responsible for serving other people. The waiter should have said something, certainly, and the maitre d' should have been keeping an eye on all of the tables to make sure that prompt service was being delivered. However, the other couple should not have monopolized the waiter in the first place.

[tofu]

I thought this was going to be a thread about people talking in movie theaters or blowing their nose on the sidewalk (yeah, I saw someone do that). Taking a little extra time in a restaurant... eh, not a big deal in my opinion.

In hindsight, I should have gone to the maitre-d' and complained instead of dropping the note.

It's pretty cool that you took advice from the group and developed another perspective on the situation. I rarely see people willing to do that on the internets. kudos.

[Paracelsus]

Thanks, tofu! :)

I wouldn't have asked if I didn't want other perspectives.

How does one blow one's nose on the sidewalk?? That sounds painful! ;)

[Tucson_Tim]

One should be polite and friendly, but one should also remember that he/she is also serving others and not take up more of his/her time than is absolutely necessary.

NOTE: My bolding in above quote.

Taking this thread OT now (sorry SAMU :)) . . .

Some linguist needs to invent words so we can stop this he/she, his/her stuff. Re-stating the noun (waiter) is the easiest way around it but then sentences start to sound funny.

Maybe we need some Gillian advice here.

[Paracelsus]

Well, one can't say 'it'...

We need another indeterminate gender pronoun.

[Trebuchet]

Well, one can't say 'it'...

We need another indeterminate gender pronoun.

"They" or "them" are commonly used, even though incorrect for a single person.

[Tinaa]

If I remember my English rules from HS, he is proper if you don't know or are referring to either. Of course, HS was 25+ years ago. Oh my, where has the time gone?

[Tucson_Tim]

If I remember my English rules from HS, he is proper if you don't know or are referring to either. Of course, HS was 25+ years ago. Oh my, where has the time gone?

That is guaranteed to make modern women angry!

[Delvo]

Actually, using "one" and "one's" again would have been fine in that sentence, but the author didn't use them, even though (s)he had previously in the same sentence!

Now THERE, in my last sentence, was a case where we need a new word: not for the "someone/anyone in general who could be either gender" situation, but for when the speaker is referring to a specific individual...

[Paracelsus]

Hey, I'm coming up on my 20th HS reunion, so I'm with you on that one!

[Paracelsus]

I like the (s)he pronoun---although it reminds me of a pronoun used in a sci-fi story to describe a transgendered person. ;)

[Argos]

That is guaranteed to make modern women angry!

I´ve seen people using she for inderterminate gender [sometimes it gets me puzzled]. In Portuguese, for example, it is always [the equivalent of] "he".

[Gillianren]

And no 10% tip for the inconsiderate waiter.

10% is, in my opinion, a low enough tip if the rest of the meal service was good. Given that 15% is considered a proper tip and that I tend to tip high if I can afford it, 10% sounds paltry to me.

Okay, another grammar declaration; here I go.

I use "one" or "they," depending on which is appropriate to the given sentence. I know "they" is technically incorrect; however, it's the only solution to the problem--and I consider referring to a person by a pronoun of the wrong gender a problem, more on which anon--that has shown any staying power. Certainly intentionally invented words have failed us, and people do so resent being called an "it." (Though hermaphrodites in the Vorkosigan Saga, by Lois McMaster Bujold, take the pronoun "it.")

As an interesting history of grammar side note--lo these many years ago, in advertising, consumers were referred to as "she." As were members of certain professions, such as teachers and nurses. It was assumed that all shopping was done by women, that all teachers, secretaries, and nurses were women, and that essentially everyone else was a man. Now, it's true that most shopping was done by women, but not all. I don't have statistics on the others, but for teachers, at least, everyone here can, I suspect, name at least one male teacher they had, and probably several, unless they were taught in a Catholic school where all the teachers were nuns.

[Noclevername]

A few centuries ago, the english language used Thou for single and You for multiple people. I suspect that the current common usage of "they/them" for an individual of unknown gender might evolve along a similar path, eventually replacing "assumed" genders in speech. What we'll use for groups I have no idea.

[Palomar]

10% is, in my opinion, a low enough tip if the rest of the meal service was good. Given that 15% is considered a proper tip

It is? Not around here.

and that I tend to tip high if I can afford it,

That's good of you.

10% sounds paltry to me.

::shrugs:: It's standard in this region and some of us can't afford to tip much higher. :)

[Paracelsus]

In the South, we use 'You' to refer to a single person and 'Y'all' to refer to multiple people. In spite of having lived in the North for many years now, I still refer to multiple people as 'y'all'--'you' just doesn't sound right to me.

It ain't English--it's Southern! ;)

[Noclevername]

In the South, we use 'You' to refer to a single person and 'Y'all' to refer to multiple people. In spite of having lived in the North for many years now, I still refer to multiple people as 'y'all'--'you' just doesn't sound right to me.

It ain't English--it's Southern! ;)

I'm a New Englander, I guess "ya'll" is just never going to fit in my mouth! ;)

[Paracelsus]

A New England accent sounds very British to these Southern ears--I DO like British accents!

Yes, I know about all that tea y'all dumped in the harbor..;)

[Noclevername]

I guess the sometimes used NE version of "yall" would be either "youguys" (run together) or, in southern New England, and down into New York and New Jersey, "youse" or "yez".

"Hey, youse gonna pahk the cah?"

[Tinaa]

10% is, in my opinion, a low enough tip if the rest of the meal service was good. Given that 15% is considered a proper tip and that I tend to tip high if I can afford it, 10% sounds paltry to me.


I tend to tip at least 20% for good service. Patrons have no idea how many times a server has been stiffed that day. I am good tipper but I've also had to work for tips and a big one just absolutely made my day.

I think a person should have to work as food service personnel for a year and a dept. store clerk for a year before entering the work force.

[Gillianren]

It is? Not around here.

Actually, yes, around there. In the US as a whole, in fact. Now, you're not very specific about where you are, but my mother lives in LA and my grandparents Nelson used to live in Arizona, and I was taught that 15% is a standard tip and that anything under that is either rude or indicative of poor service.

[Noclevername]

It is? Not around here.


All the Dear Abbey and Ms. Manners type etiquette advisors have usually said 15% standard, 20% for really excellent service.

[Doodler]

Having worked in the service industry, sometimes you get customers like that. And they're not always well liked.

Alternatives:

1) Grab the bus boy. God knows how many conversations like the one you describe I tapped waiters on the shoulder for.

2) Maitre'd or manager, which ever. Feel free to skim the tip (just throw something to the busboy, eh?)

[R.A.F.]

What do y'all think?

I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but since you asked...:)

You posted that the waiter had given you your check so we know he was aware that you were about to leave...therefore the waiter is the one responsible for any perceived rudeness...

However...

As for the other couple, I owe them nothing.

You assumed that the other couple knew you were about to leave and purposefully inconvienced you by talking for so long with the waiter, and you can't possibly know that to be true...yet, you left them a "nasty" note.

Sounds to me like you owed the other couple an apology.

[Noclevername]

I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but since you asked...:)

You posted that the waiter had given you your check so we know he was aware that you were about to leave...therefore the waiter is the one responsible for any perceived rudeness...

However...



You assumed that the other couple knew you were about to leave and purposefully inconvienced you by talking for so long with the waiter, and you can't possibly know that to be true...yet, you left them a "nasty" note.



Sounds to me like you owed the other couple an apology.

Unless you are the only occupied table in the restaurant, monpolizing a waiter's time is rude. Yes, the waiter is primarily at fault, but unless he was giving a monologue the other couple shares the blame.

[Damien Evans]

10% is, in my opinion, a low enough tip if the rest of the meal service was good. Given that 15% is considered a proper tip and that I tend to tip high if I can afford it, 10% sounds paltry to me.


It is?

Around here it's 0%

[R.A.F.]

Unless you are the only occupied table in the restraunt, monpolizing a waiter's time is rude. Yes, the waiter is primarily at fault, but unless he was giving a monologue the other couple shares the blame.

That is assuming that Paracelsus has given us an accurate account of how much time the waiter spent with the other couple.

the couple behind engaged the waiter in this long convo that must have lasted at least 15 min. while we were sitting there waiting.

Here she says that the time the waiter spent with the other couple was "at least" 15 minutes.

We sat there for about 20 min before our waiter was able to break free of that couple to come over to take our card.

Here, she says it was "about" 20 minutes.

I hate to get "picky" but which is it? Was it 20 minutes?...was it 15?, or perhaps 10, or maybe even 5??

[Jens]

Well, one can't say 'it'...

We need another indeterminate gender pronoun.

Of course one can. I don't see anything wrong with it at all. In Chinese, there is only one third person personal pronoun, "ta", which is used for male, female, and inanimate. I think using "it" would sound a little Gollum-ish at the beginning, but I'm sure people would quickly get used to it. "Where does your brother live?" "It lives in California." Sounds doable to me.

[Delvo]

15% is the standard that one is (or "you are") supposed to tip, but my sisters who are former waitresses inform me that even though everyone knows that and claimst o follow it, undertipping to 10 or less is pretty routine, just about as normal as a full tip. They figure that the people who do that just think it's too small of a difference for anyone to notice so they can get away with it.

As a result, one more person doing that wouldn't really send a message or even be noticed. Waiters & waitresses are used to it and would think it's just another low tipper. It would take a lot less to stand out as a clear statement from the customer. The tips that stood out to my sisters and seemed to really mean something were a dollar or two or just some coins, which would have equated to 5% or less.

[Tobin Dax]

15% is the standard that one is (or "you are") supposed to tip, but my sisters who are former waitresses inform me that even though everyone knows that and claimst o follow it, undertipping to 10 or less is pretty routine, just about as normal as a full tip. They figure that the people who do that just think it's too small of a difference for anyone to notice so they can get away with it.


How often do people tip more that 15%? I tip at least 15%, but I definitely tip more for good service. A few of my friends seem to tip closer to 20% about as often as I do. So I have to wonder about the frequencey of that since there are all of these under-tippers around.

[sarongsong]

...Around here it's 0%Hee-hee; there is a link between Australia and Canada...

[Gillianren]

How often do people tip more that 15%? I tip at least 15%, but I definitely tip more for good service. A few of my friends seem to tip closer to 20% about as often as I do. So I have to wonder about the frequencey of that since there are all of these under-tippers around.

While Graham was here, we ended up leaving a roughly 25% tip once, because it was easier to leave whole bills for a very small tip (we didn't eat much) than change. My ren faire boss routinely tips 20% at least. I have almost never tipped less than 15% in my life--actually, the person providing my service has to be really bad or actively rude for that. I'm aware that tipping isn't standard procedure in all countries; I have read about that. However, in the US, the tip you leave on your table after a meal or write onto your credit card slip is expected to be 15%; that is considered appropriate. (Take note for future travel, I suppose.)

[Paracelsus]

That is assuming that Paracelsus has given us an accurate account of how much time the waiter spent with the other couple.



Here she says that the time the waiter spent with the other couple was "at least" 15 minutes.



Here, she says it was "about" 20 minutes.

I hate to get "picky" but which is it? Was it 20 minutes?...was it 15?, or perhaps 10, or maybe even 5??

It was 15-20 min, RAF. I wasn't timing them on a watch, but it was clearly longer than 5-10 but less than 30. How's that? Let's see how well you do timing something without a watch.:mad:

Thank you, Noclevername, for what you said. RAF, these people had a clear view of our table and could have seen that we were waiting for the check, had they even BOTHERED to look. The whole point is that they were so wrapped up in themselves that they just didn't GIVE a damn. Their behavior wasn't intended as a deliberate slight, I'll give you that, but it was tremendously rude nonetheless.

[Paracelsus]

BTW, RAF, please see my story (RE: my mom at Xmas Day) and how I handled a similar situation for how a polite and considerate person acts in a restaurant.

I sense lack of clarity on that issue from your posts.

[Paracelsus]

Oh, RAF, here's another question: Are you accusing me of lying in post#46????
Are you calling me a liar, sir?

[Tucson_Tim]

I tend to tip at least 20% for good service. Patrons have no idea how many times a server has been stiffed that day. I am good tipper but I've also had to work for tips and a big one just absolutely made my day.

I think a person should have to work as food service personnel for a year and a dept. store clerk for a year before entering the work force.

Agreed. I always tip 20% if service is OK. The few extra bucks doesn't hurt me and 20% is real easy to do in my head. Service folks in the USA live on tips - not on their wages.

[Delvo]

"Sir" is a funny word. It was once a sign of respect, but now is only pulled out of the dustbin of history almost exclusively to express anger or deliver insults or try to put someone else in a verbally defensive stance.

I think it's because of a handful of famous quotes from when it was more common and also generally more respectful, but was given, in those particular quotes, along with an insult or challenge or such. Back then, it was probably pretty clever to have such a calm and civilized manner/demeanor while expressing such indignation or verbally giving someone such a slap in the face. But now, it's just copycattish and pretentious.

[Tucson_Tim]

I lived in Zurich Switzerland for a year (my job) and there the 'tip' was only rounding up to the nearest Swiss Franc. But my understanding was that the waiters/waitresses are paid a decent wage and don't depend on tips.

[Tucson_Tim]

"Sir" is a funny word. It was once a sign of respect, but now is only pulled out of the dustbin of history almost exclusively to express anger or deliver insults or try to put someone else in a verbally defensive stance.

I think it's because of a handful of famous quotes from when it was more common and also generally more respectful, but was given, in those particular quotes, along with an insult or challenge or such. Back then, it was probably pretty clever to have such a calm and civilized manner/demeanor while expressing such indignation or verbally giving someone such a slap in the face. But now, it's just copycattish and pretentious.

I fondly remember Michael Moriarity on Law and Order, using "Sir" when he was hounding a witness on the stand. :)

[Tucson_Tim]

This type of thread shows up all the time on other forums, especially the motorcycle forums. :rolleyes:

The main problem with this type of thread (the "Let me tell you what happened to me and what do you think" thread) is that we only hear one side of the 'situation'. It's sort of like when people at work start complaining about their spouse/SO - I'm only hearing one side of the 'argument'. It's hard (maybe impossible) to make a judgment unless we hear from the 'other couple' and the waiter.

[R.A.F.]

Oh, RAF, here's another question: Are you accusing me of lying in post#46????
Are you calling me a liar, sir?

This reminds me so very much of talking to flying saucer believers. They always ask "are you calling (such and such credible witness) a liar"?

My answer..."isn't it possible that they were mistaken", never seems to cross their mind.

But let us say for a minute (pun unintentional) that you were kept waiting for 15 minutes. I'd like to ask just why you would wait that long? 15 minutes is a very long time.

As an aside, I find it interesting that because I am skeptical of something I, myself did not witness...because I inquire and ask questions, I am suddenly accused of calling someone a liar.

[Paracelsus]

My answer..."isn't it possible that they were mistaken", never seems to cross their mind.

I asked my husband how long it was, as he was the one who originally pointed out the situation to me. He said '15-20 minutes'. He is very good with time.

I'd like to ask just why you would wait that long? 15 minutes is a very long time.

Yes, it certainly is, which is why I was so upset. Why did we wait so long? We were waiting to pay the bill and did not want to leave without paying. Next time, I should perhaps take the suggestion of one of the other posters on this thread and just walk out on my bill!!


But now, it's just copycattish and pretentious.

'Sir' saves me from calling a person something else that would amount to an ad homineum attack.

because I inquire and ask questions, I am suddenly accused of calling someone a liar.

You are not just inquiring and asking questions. You are being deliberately provocative. You said yourself: know I'm going to get flamed for this

Why do you ask a question that may invoke a flame war? If you hadn't noticed, the subject of the thread had moved on from the original incident after I had admitted that my actions were inappropriate and acknowledged what I should have done instead.

Yet here you are, making all of these upsetting statements for no understandable reason.

It's hard (maybe impossible) to make a judgment unless we hear from the 'other couple' and the waiter.

Good point, Tuscon Tim. But I can only describe things from my POV. I have no way of knowing what the waiter was thinking or what the other couple was thinking (not that I care). But then, this could be true for any opinion or experience posted on BAUT. Should we then limit what we post to events or experiences where all involved may share their POV on the forum?

This reminds me so very much of talking to flying saucer believers.

That's quite a leap, RAF, equating me talking about what is sadly a very common experience to someone claiming they have been kidnapped by aliens or something. Would you mind explaining how those two are equatable, Sir??

[Gillianren]

I asked my husband how long it was, as he was the one who originally pointed out the situation to me. He said '15-20 minutes'. He is very good with time.

Did he have a watch? I would think that if a waiter were talking to people at a table for "15-20 minutes," the management would take notice and that waiter would promptly be fired; he assuredly had more than two tables.

Good point, Tuscon Tim. But I can only describe things from my POV. I have no way of knowing what the waiter was thinking or what the other couple was thinking (not that I care).

Um, I think that may be your problem, here. It's certainly why I find your story so grating. You're making at least one unfounded assumption, you're completely unaware of and uninterested in any perspective but your own, your own behaviour was indeed rude, and when it's pointed out that you did make an unfounded assumption, you become even more rude. Yeah, I don't understand why R.A.F. asked that question at all; it's not as though it's a totally reasonable question or anything.

[Tucson_Tim]

Good point, Tuscon Tim. But I can only describe things from my POV. I have no way of knowing what the waiter was thinking or what the other couple was thinking (not that I care). But then, this could be true for any opinion or experience posted on BAUT. Should we then limit what we post to events or experiences where all involved may share their POV on the forum?


You've made the waiter and the 'other couple' into villians in your story. I'm just saying that there are two (or more) sides to every story - does Rashomon ring a bell?

[The Supreme Canuck]

Hee-hee; there is a link between Australia and Canada...

Nope. 15% is standard Canada-wide.

[01101001]

"Sir" is a funny word. It was once a sign of respect, but now is only pulled out of the dustbin of history almost exclusively to express anger or deliver insults or try to put someone else in a verbally defensive stance.

You must not hang around with military, paramilitary, or respectful, polite people very much.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Delvo is right, though, that signs of respect - such as using the words "sir" and "ma'am" - are being used less and less by the average person. It's a crying shame, really.

[R.A.F.]

Why do you ask a question that may invoke a flame war?

I made the "flame war" comment because I knew from previous experience with you that you don't like it when someone tells you that you might be wrong.

Yet here you are, making all of these upsetting statements for no understandable reason.

"Upsetting"?? I just found it ironic that the title of this thread mentioned rudeness, when it is quite possible that the other couple thought that you were the one being rude by leaving that note.

I have no way of knowing what the waiter was thinking or what the other couple was thinking (not that I care).

This I have a bit of a problem with...your lack of empathy concerning others. I noticed that in the other thread where we "bumped heads". This "lack" could cloud your judgement. But that's really going off topic.

That's quite a leap, RAF, equating me talking about what is sadly a very common experience to someone claiming they have been kidnapped by aliens or something. Would you mind explaining how those two are equatable, Sir??

Since you have admitted that the "sir" is meant as a personal insult, you need to knock it off.

Equatable? Well, you have presented yourself as a credible person, which I have no reason to doubt, and it is also what UFO witness' say. Then you jump to the conclusion that I "must" be calling you a liar when I question the accuracy of your claims, again as a UFO witness would say, when in reality the only thing I AM saying is that all of us have been mistaken in the past, and that you might indeed have been mistaken.

See...not a "leap" at all.

[Paracelsus]

You've made the waiter and the 'other couple' into villians in your story. I'm just saying that there are two (or more) sides to every story - does Rashomon ring a bell?

Did he have a watch? I would think that if a waiter were talking to people at a table for "15-20 minutes," the management would take notice and that waiter would promptly be fired; he assuredly had more than two tables.

Um, I think that may be your problem, here. It's certainly why I find your story so grating. You're making at least one unfounded assumption, you're completely unaware of and uninterested in any perspective but your own, your own behaviour was indeed rude, and when it's pointed out that you did make an unfounded assumption, you become even more rude. Yeah, I don't understand why R.A.F. asked that question at all; it's not as though it's a totally reasonable question or anything.

My, how things change. May I remind you, Tuscon Tim,of your earlier post?

Tuscon Tim Post#4:Sounds like the waiter's fault to me. The other couple may not have known you were waiting on the waiter.


Here is what I wrote in post #16 in response to the feedback:

think the consensus here is that this was the waiter's fault, and I must agree. In hindsight, I should have gone to the maitre-d' and complained instead of dropping the note.

As for there being two or more sides to every story, this is true, Gillianren and TusconTim. My question remains: Are you both saying that telling stories such as this one is inappropriate, as all sides don't have the opportunity to weight in? If so, then that would be true for any personal experience recounted on this forum, including some of mine and some of yours too Gillianren. Maksutov recounted the story of his divorce on the 'Sextuplets thread. Should I then chide him for making his ex-wife the villian of that story and say that we really don't know what happened because we haven't heard from the judge, the ex, the kid, etc.?

A personal story is not the same thing as an ATM thread; I am not trying to overturn established scientific wisdom or promulgate a conspiracy theory. I am simply relating a personal experience of mine and asking if my actions were appropriate. I think the consensus was 'no, they weren't', and I have agreed. Suggestions for alternate courses of action were made, and I have thought about them and agreed to them too. I have said so on this thread in fact, as noted above. The original question that I asked has been answered.

Where is the controversy?

I feel like I'm being targeted for personal attack and don't understand why.:confused: :(

Did you actually read the entire thread before making your last post on this one, Gillianren?

Oh, BTW, a waiter could be dilatory for a lot longer than 15-20 min and not be fired, Gillianren. The quality of service is very uneven in DC.

[Paracelsus]

I made the "flame war" comment because I knew from previous experience with you that you don't like it when someone tells you that you might be wrong.



"Upsetting"?? I just found it ironic that the title of this thread mentioned rudeness, when it is quite possible that the other couple thought that you were the one being rude by leaving that note.



This I have a bit of a problem with...your lack of empathy concerning others. I noticed that in the other thread where we "bumped heads". This "lack" could cloud your judgement. But that's really going off topic.



Since you have admitted that the "sir" is meant as a personal insult, you need to knock it off.

Equatable? Well, you have presented yourself as a credible person, which I have no reason to doubt, and it is also what UFO witness' say. Then you jump to the conclusion that I "must" be calling you a liar when I question the accuracy of your claims, again as a UFO witness would say, when in reality the only thing I AM saying is that all of us have been mistaken in the past, and that you might indeed have been mistaken.

See...not a "leap" at all.

Please see my post below yours.

[Gillianren]

As for there being two or more sides to every story, this is true, Gillianren and TusconTim. My question remains: Are you both saying that telling stories such as this one is inappropriate, as all sides don't have the opportunity to weight in? If so, then that would be true for any personal experience recounted on this forum, including some of mine and some of yours too Gillianren. Maksutov recounted the story of his divorce on the 'Sextuplets thread. Should I then chide him for making his ex-wife the villian of that story and say that we really don't know what happened because we haven't heard from the judge, the ex, the kid, etc.?

Sigh. No, but you don't really get to be so indignant and so sure of how the story happened. You don't have the right to be so rude when people ask a legitimate question. And if I asked Maksutov a question such as, "Is it possible she tried and failed to sell those dollhouses?" I'm sure Maksutov would answer it without getting snippy at me. (At his ex-wife, probably. But not me.) We don't have to assume that yours is the only correct perspective. Heck, you don't have to assume that mine is the only correct perspective, and you're certainly within your rights to ask clarifying questions, and I am not within my rights to get insulting about it.

Where is the controversy?

I feel like I'm being targeted for personal attack and don't understand why.:confused: :(

Your attitude causes the problem. You were asked a simple question. You've admitted that you didn't have a watch. You've not said whether or not your husband did, though since you referred to his time sense and not his timepiece, I can only be left to infer that he did not. Ergo, you cannot provide evidence for your claim that it was 15-20 minutes except your own perceptions, and anyone can tell you that your perceptions of time change based on the situation you're experiencing.

Did you actually read the entire thread before making your last post on this one, Gillianren?

Indeed I did. You were getting steadily ruder and continuing to fail to support your assertions.

Oh, BTW, a waiter could be dilatory for a lot longer than 15-20 min and not be fired, Gillianren. The quality of service is very uneven in DC.

I doubt it. I doubt a waiter could be dilatory for as long as ten minutes. Then again, I've shown just as much evidence for my assumption as you, so you're certainly within your rights to take my statement with a grain of salt.

[R.A.F.]

Please see my post below yours.

So now you can't be bothered to even give a personal reply?

In that post you asked, "What is the controversy?"

IMO, the "controversy" is how you are reacting to all this. How hard would it be for you to say, "I could be wrong, but I don't think I am".

There was certainly no reason for you to accuse me of calling you a liar.

[Paracelsus]

your lack of empathy concerning others

Please give examples.

I can give you just as many examples where I have shown a lot of empathy.

And where I haven't, I have also issued apologies, as appropriate. If necessary, I can search through my posts and bring them up.

Have you done the same, RAF?? Whenever someone has expressed hurt over something I wrote, I've apologized. Yet, here I have PM'ed you, telling you that your comments have REALLY HURT me...and you blow me off, telling me that I lack empathy! Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black to me.

I noticed that in the other thread where we "bumped heads".

Which other threads were those, BTW? I can only recall one thread where we 'bumped heads' as you put it.

I can tell that you can't stand me, RAF. Boo hoo.

This doesn't give you the right to say what you've said on this thread.

[Tucson_Tim]

Paracelsus,

First, please relax.

You have to understand that relating episodes of your life and asking for feedback is opening yourself up for other opinions. I don't really know who was wrong in your story. Maybe all three parties. You, for getting worked up for nothing - a few minutes of your life - time you could have spent discussing Astronomical things :). The waiter, for delaying too long. And (maybe) the other couple, for monopolizing the waiter's time. But the way you handled it, you were upset, your "hubby" was upset, the other couple may have been upset, and the waiter may also have been upset. So, what did you accomplish?

I have another saying that I try to live by: I try to not get upset over something that won't matter at all in a week. Your misadventure in the restaurant definitely qualifies.

[Noclevername]

I have another saying that I try to live by: I try to not get upset over something that won't matter at all in a week. Your misadventure in the restaurant definitely qualifies.

As does a few people questioning you on a bulletin board. It's not an attack, just questions.

Just take a deep breath, and let it slide. :whistle:

Better? :)

[Tucson_Tim]

On a lighter note . . .

If you want a truly memorable evening next time this happens to you - and I do mean memorable - one you'll remember to your grave - you do what my relatives would do: Start a donnybrook and get hauled off to jail! Then the obligatory date in court. :):lol:

[Paracelsus]

Paracelsus,

First, please relax.

You have to understand that relating episodes of your life and asking for feedback is opening yourself up for other opinions. I don't really know who was wrong in your story. Maybe all three parties. You, for getting worked up for nothing - a few minutes of your life - time you could have spent discussing Astronomical things :). The waiter, for delaying too long. And (maybe) the other couple, for monopolizing the waiter's time. But the way you handled it, you were upset, your "hubby" was upset, the other couple may have been upset, and the waiter may also have been upset. So, what did you accomplish?

I have another saying that I try to live by: I try to not get upset over something that won't matter at all in a week. Your misadventure in the restaurant definitely qualifies.

I appreciate that, TusconTim. Thank you! I am under some considerable emotional strain this weekend, as you may know. Under other circumstances, I probably would have just rolled my eyes, called the Maitre d' over, and handed the check to him. No incident, no subsequent thread. I wish to god I'd done just that. Oh well, lesson learned.:doh:

[R.A.F.]

I have PM'ed you, telling you that your comments have REALLY HURT me...and you blow me off, telling me that I lack empathy! Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black to me.

I have received no PM from you. I am NOT saying that you are lying, but perhaps you should try and re-send it.

I can only recall one thread where we 'bumped heads' as you put it.

I only spoke of one thread and that's the one I am talking about. (the most arrogant scientific specialty whatever thread).

I can tell that you can't stand me, RAF. Boo hoo.

...and now I am "painted" as being a "meany". Ironic as I am one of the nicest guys you could meet on this board...oh well.

This doesn't give you the right to say what you've said on this thread.

???? I have every right to say that you might have been mistaken...why are you over-reacting like this????

aside...if I didn't know better, this "almost" reminds me of "talks" I've had with Candy.

[01101001]

Apropos Blondie comic strip, June 17 (http://www.blondie.com/dailies/index.asp?month=6&year=2007&comic=2007-6-17).

Dagwood: "What in the world happened to our waiter? I want to pay the bill."
[...]
Waiter: "Sir! Sir! You haven't paid your bill!"

[Tucson_Tim]

I appreciate that, TusconTim. Thank you! I am under some considerable emotional strain this weekend, as you may know. Under other circumstances, I probably would have just rolled my eyes, called the Maitre d' over, and handed the check to him. No incident, no subsequent thread. I wish to god I'd done just that. Oh well, lesson learned.:doh:

We all have those weeks....

BTW, I noticed that you're a runner. How many miles per week? The best I ever did was when I was training for a half-marathon - I ran 50 miles in a week, which was six 10K runs and a training half-marathon. But that was YEARS ago - I'm lucky if I can walk 10K nowadays. :)

[Paracelsus]

if I didn't know better, this "almost" reminds me of "talks" I've had with Candy

Well, that is a little uncalled for; I know a little of the history behind that, and I am not like her in the slightest. But I will step back, take a deep breath, and begin again in a polite and constructive manner. :)

Addressing your point: I asked my husband. He said, '15-20 min.' He WAS wearing a watch. I was also able to listen in on the couple while they were talking to the waiter, as they were talking rather loudly and we were seated right next to them. Their convo took quite a while--was quite lengthy--and had little to do with ordering food until the very end when the guy started going over the wine list page by page. I witnessed all of this, as did my husband.

If you wish, you may call up Blue Duck Tavern to ask for corroboration. I doubt they would be able to give it to you, as many customers go in and out every day.

That is the whole of my 'evidence' for my point: eyewitness observation and hubby's watch. You and Gillianren may believe it or not, as you each wish.

I would ask a question of the board, however: I am being asked to 'substantiate my statements' as if this were an ATM thread, not a personal experience that I am relating. To the moderators, is this appropriate? If so, I'll remember this for future; this rule should also be applied evenly across the board to all threads relating personal experiences. This substantiation should include submission of documentation, as necessary, for BAUT members inspection and independent verification of members statements from other people involved in the story in question. I often have to do this for my job. I am prepared to live by this rule if everyone else is.

[Paracelsus]

I run 12-18 miles per day. My feet are starting to give out, though. I have Achilles tendonitis, I think.

[Noclevername]

I would ask a question of the board, however: I am being asked to 'substantiate my statements' as if this were an ATM thread, not a personal experience that I am relating.


Just put a video of it on YouTube, then you'll have all the CTers backing your story too. ;)

[Paracelsus]

I only spoke of one thread and that's the one I am talking about. (the most arrogant scientific specialty whatever thread).

I am aware that thread may have been hurtful to some people. That is why I posted this (Post #123):
Quote:
So where's the poll?
There is no poll. I started this thread in a fit of anger after I ran across that one incident of 'arrogance' that I have described earlier in this thread. After cooling off and seeing how this thread upset some BAUT members, I concluded that:
1) It is never a good thing to post while infuriated.
2) I blew the incident a bit out of proportion. I'd say the person in question is guilty more of 'egotism' than 'arrogance'. I must say I still don't think what this person is doing is necessarily a good idea, mainly because of the potential harm to his/her own rep; but it hardly rates condemning the person for it either.
3) It is unfair to target an entire disclipline because of a minor irritation at one practitioner of it.
4) It is equally unfair to call MDs prime examples of 'arrogant scientists'. Some scientists may be MDs, but the majority of MDs could hardly be called scientists!

Then, for some reason, this thread took off and took a very large detour into multiple different threads all mashed into one thread. The detours are keeping the thread going long after I'd hoped it would die a quiet ignominious death.

Such is life.
__________________

I also posted in response to your posts (Post #40):

Quote:
I could just as easily ask, "in what scientific discipline is arrogance the least prevalent?", and arrive at the same answer (particle physicists) based only on personal experiences I've had with particle physicists.


I see your point RAF, which is why I was polling people. I have only had experience with particle physicists, other toxicologists, neuroscientists, immunologists, physical chemists, and statisticians so far. Oh yes, let me add medical doctor to that list in two categories: under 'disciplines I've had experience with' and under 'prone to arrogance'. Of course my evidence is anecdotal!

I was asking for other peoples' opinions and experiences, not making a definitive statement or trying to tar and feather an entire field. My apologies to all of the sweet-natured particle physicists on the board!

Again, I ask how these replies betray lack of empathy? If I lacked empathy, wouldn't I blindly defend my position and continue to rag on particle physicists? Would I ever acknowledge having hurt anyone? Would I ever apologize for anything?

I'm sorry I was rude to you, RAF. I am offerng an olive branch here.

[Paracelsus]

Just put a video of it on YouTube, then you'll have all the CTers backing your story too. ;)


Woo-HOO! ;)

Hubby is watching 'Sin City' right now. There is one ugly dude on the screen at the moment...'Goldie..she says her name is Goldie'

[Tucson_Tim]

Woo-HOO! ;)

Hubby is watching 'Sin City' right now. There is one ugly dude on the screen at the moment...'Goldie..she says her name is Goldie'

That's Micky Rourke - in one of his best roles.

[Paracelsus]

Ooof! He must have a lot of prosthetic makeup on, then. He has gained a TON of weight since '9.5 Weeks'.

[Tucson_Tim]

Ooof! He must have a lot of prosthetic makeup on, then. He has gained a TON of weight since '9.5 Weeks'.

He bulked up a lot over the years - lifting weights.

[Jeff Root]

I've skipped over many posts in this thread, including the most
recent, but I want to express my own view. Twice in the last
two days I typed a reply then decided to back out. Third try:

My immediate reaction was that although the waiter was
certainly at fault for forgetting about you, you (or your husband)
were at fault for getting mad instead of getting the waiter's
attention. Whatever the reason the waiter was distracted, if
you had the payment ready, you or your husband could have
held it up and waved it back and forth so that he, or one of
the people at the table he was at, or another staff person
would know that you needed service. If somehow nobody
saw that, you could say something. If the waiter couldn't
hear you, you could have got up and gone over to him.

Any and all of those should have been attempted before
you or your husband even began to become angry.

There would be no need to go to the next step of following
Argos's suggestion of starting to head for the door, nor to
go to some other staff person, because the waiter was right
there, within your sight. You would get his attention one
way or another, even if his back was turned to you the whole
time, because you had the ability to remind him that you were
still there and hadn't had your bill processed yet.

I've been thinking about this thread for two days, now, and I
cannot recall one single time that I've ever become angry at
a waitperson or cashier. I have sometimes become somewhat
exaspirated by them, but, I'm pretty sure, never once angry.

On a slightly other topic:

I detest the practice of tipping, and am essentially indigent.
So I don't often eat at restaurants where tipping is expected.
Because I have a problem getting myself to the grocery store
to replenish my food supply, I occasionally resort to ordering
a pizza or Chinese (the ONLY thing on their menu that I've
found to be edible is the moo goo gai pan) food delivered.
I generally assume that while the delivery person would like a
tip, he doesn't expect one. So I don't generally give a tip to
delivery guys. I will give a tip if the weather is poor or the
person had any kind of difficulty or did anything extra.

So what this is leading to... I was getting worried for the driver
one time when the pizza failed to show up. It was after closing
time (1 AM, I think) and I was concerned he might have had a
car accident or something. Turned out he had gone to the
wrong part of town. Outside his delivery area, even, I think.
He spent minutes explaining and deciding to deduct several
dollars from my bill for my inconvenience. Miser that I am, I
accepted the reduction, but I was prepared to tip him extra
for his inconvenience. And I wanted to get rid of him and
eat something.

Okay. I haven't eaten any real food in a week. I need to tear
myself away from this stupid machine and get out of here before
I'm too weak to stand up. I just hope I don't succumb to the
temptation of ordering a pizza as a stopgap measure.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Paracelsus]

Whatever the reason the waiter was distracted, if
you had the payment ready, you or your husband could have
held it up and waved it back and forth so that he, or one of
the people at the table he was at, or another staff person
would know that you needed service. If somehow nobody
saw that, you could say something. If the waiter couldn't
hear you, you could have got up and gone over to him.

Well, that certainly would have been a more preferable course of action over what I actually did; but, in hindsight, I think our best option would have been to discreetly flag down another waiter who was passing by and have that person run the check. Oh well.

Okay. I haven't eaten any real food in a week.

That worries me a bit, Jeff Root. I don't know what to say, as we don't know each other well, I don't know your situation, and I don't want to offend. The only thing I CAN say is please DO get yourself something to eat before starvation sets in; don't want to lose a fellow BAUTer! :)

[sarongsong]

Apropos Blondie comic strip, June 17 (http://www.blondie.com/dailies/index.asp?month=6&year=2007&comic=2007-6-17).Waiter's epitaph:By and by, God caught his eye...

[Paracelsus]

Waiter's epitaph:
Quote:
By and by, God caught his eye...

Cute! :)

[Damien Evans]

Hee-hee; there is a link between Australia and Canada...

That, and we're the only two countries to get the 7% strength smirnoff:shifty:

[Paracelsus]

hat, and we're the only two countries to get the 7% strength smirnoff

What's THAT?? Didn't know there WAS such a thing. ;)

[farmerjumperdon]

Don't let the conversation drag on. Don't be afraid to interrupt the waiter whose job is not to have entertaining conversations but to serve customers and say, "I'm sorry to interrupt, but we're in kind of a hurry. Could you take care of our bill, please?"

I like that one. I probably would have given him 5 minutes, then walked over and handed it to him, maybe saying nothing. The right look and posture would speak very loudly.

[farmerjumperdon]

This all sounds very familiar. Some time back, in one thread or another, some forum members got to carping about service in one bookstore or another.

I get the impression that quite a few people in this forum have never actually worked in any kind of service related business.

In a culture afflicted with an epidemic of severe self-entitlement, I could see two years of mandatory occupation in a retail or food service environment as a healthy way to give the over-accomodated a little perspective. Gives a glimpse of what you look like from the other side of the counter.

First the op believed the other table must be at fault, flag number one. Second the op asked for advice on dealing with rude behavior when they were, in fact, the only party(at least according to the anecdote)to actually act rude, flag number two.

Curiously, when you ordered your food, did you glance around the restaurant to see if anyone else was being "neglected"?

Many years in the hospitality biz here; many many more than 2. If the event unfolded as described, then it was bad service. True, the waiter wasn't rude, just incompetent - at least for about 15 minutes. No amount of try-walking-a-mile-in-my-shoes makes up for that. Lastly, I'd agree the angst was taken out on the wrong party.

[farmerjumperdon]

I think the consensus here is that this was the waiter's fault, and I must agree. In hindsight, I should have gone to the maitre-d' and complained instead of dropping the note.

TriangleMan, I've already apologized to my husband. As for the other couple, I owe them nothing.

So you don't think you were rude dropping a criticising comment on them at dinner - especially in such a cowardly manner? (Tossing a napkin with a snotty comment as you walk by, and presemably out the door).

[farmerjumperdon]

I think a person should have to work as food service personnel for a year and a dept. store clerk for a year before entering the work force.

Hmmm. Done both. Actually done one several times and the other twice. You don't think being in food service or being a clerk counts as entering the work force?

[farmerjumperdon]

Actually, yes, around there. In the US as a whole, in fact. Now, you're not very specific about where you are, but my mother lives in LA and my grandparents Nelson used to live in Arizona, and I was taught that 15% is a standard tip and that anything under that is either rude or indicative of poor service.

Varies widely. I tended bar in a very rural small town salloon where tips were small, few, and far between. We're a bit in the sticks, and I've noticed lots of people leave about a dollar per person, regardless of the billed amount. Then there is The City; where incredibly overpriced food and snotty wait staff seem to be relatively common.

[farmerjumperdon]

It was 15-20 min, RAF. I wasn't timing them on a watch, but it was clearly longer than 5-10 but less than 30. How's that? Let's see how well you do timing something without a watch.:mad:

Thank you, Noclevername, for what you said. RAF, these people had a clear view of our table and could have seen that we were waiting for the check, had they even BOTHERED to look. The whole point is that they were so wrapped up in themselves that they just didn't GIVE a damn. Their behavior wasn't intended as a deliberate slight, I'll give you that, but it was tremendously rude nonetheless.

Why would they look, even with a clear view? I never check the progress of other tables. If it wasn't deliberate, could it really have been TREMENDOUSLY rude. Maybe just a bit of hyperbole? To me, when things are tremendous, they are pretty much near an extreme.

[Fazor]

Ugh. Good thing I have self control. Re: the OP topic...

My office is actually an old house, and the house nextdoor is a CPA's office. There's a little (barely even) one lane alley between the two houses to get to the parking area in back. For some reason all his brain-dead clients park in the alley to "run in" for up to 10 minutes, even though if you actually park (there's plenty of room this time of year) it's less than 100 ft walk from the car to the front door. Generally I'd just roll my eyes at this laziness but when they park there, none of our customers can get to us without going all the way around the block and up a couple of side alleys.

Well when I got to work this morning there was this Audi parked there, forcing me to drive around. I was sooo close to just pulling up infront of her car and parking, forcing her to back back out into the busy street. But I didn't. When she came out she was wearing jogging shorts and an athletic hoodie. I wanted to go out there and say "good thing you blocked the alley instead of pulling back and parking, wouldn't want to get those excersize clothes sweaty by walking ten feet." But I didn't. Bah, sometimes I hate people. I just don't understand how you can be so A) oblivious to others or B) so rude that you really don't care about anyone other than you.

[farmerjumperdon]

You must not hang around with military, paramilitary, or respectful, polite people very much.

Here here. When I say it, I mean it. Might be a regional thing; don't think I've ever doen the "Sir . . ." thing as part of a snotty comment.

[farmerjumperdon]

On a lighter note . . .

If you want a truly memorable evening next time this happens to you - and I do mean memorable - one you'll remember to your grave - you do what my relatives would do: Start a donnybrook and get hauled off to jail! Then the obligatory date in court. :):lol:

Reminded me again of the small town salloon. It seemed that a common occurence when 2 old friends got together for the first time in a long while, was to one way or another end the night with a friendly fight. Very strange.

[Paracelsus]

Bah, sometimes I hate people. I just don't understand how you can be so A) oblivious to others or B) so rude that you really don't care about anyone other than you.

THAT was why I got so upset at the other couple: points A and B. It doesn't make my actions correct, but it explains why I got so angry in the first place.

[Fazor]

THAT was why I got so upset at the other couple: points A and B. It doesn't make my actions correct, but it explains why I got so angry in the first place.

It's just baffling, isn't it? I'm not a particularly compassionate person. I've had multiple posts here where people comment on how cold or callous I am towards a particular event/issue. But that doesn't mean I don't think about other people. I don't feel sorry for people when their own stupidity comes back to bite them. But I certainly don't act like I'm the king of the earth and everyone should get out of my way. I just don't get it. Oh well. Ke sera, sera.

[Paracelsus]

Ok **deep breath**, I've thought about this a lot, taking into account what everybody wrote. Some of the feedback was very painful to read, but I weighed it in anyway, as I want to believe that this feedback was not posted with the express intent to cause me pain. I just want to make things clear where I stand on this issue and to sum up what I learned from this thread:

Confronting rude behavior (or what I interpret as rude behavior) in public is a DON'T..at least, the way I did it was a big don't.

I have egg on my face for this one, guys. I acted completely incorrectly in that restaurant. I admit it. :)

Thanks to all who posted on this thread, even the ones I flamed. :) I appreciate your feedback, even though some of it was upsetting to read and I may have not responded to it in a calm and rational manner. I learned a lesson or two. This thread had value, at least to me. It forced me to re-think some of my behavior and see things from other POVs.

Thanks again!

[Noclevername]

I just want to make things clear where I stand on this issue and to sum up what I learned from this thread:

[SNIP] It forced me to re-think some of my behavior and see things from other POVs.

The fact that you did that earns you a round of applause.
:clap::clap::clap:

[Paracelsus]

Thanks Noclevername. I'm probably not one of the most popular BAUTer's around here right now because of this thread (which I don't regret posting, even though it probably lowered a lot of people's opinions of me) and the idiotic 'Arrogance in Scientific Disciplines' thread (which was a terrible idea, terribly worded and executed with complete insensitivity--ugh :(). I'm sure I currently reside on RAF's, Gillianren's, and Celestial Mechanic's ignore lists at this point. I'm not whining about it or faulting anyone but myself for it--just stating what is probably the case, IMHO. Oh well.:doh:

[Noclevername]

I'm sure I currently reside on RAF's, Gillianren's, and Celestial Mechanic's ignore lists at this point.


Don't assume. You can't know what another person is thinking (that's what got you in trouble in the restaurant, I think).

[tofu]

I'm not saying this is rude, but it made me laugh and I didn't want to start a new thread. I few weeks ago a loaned a book to a coworker. Just now, as I was coming out of the bathroom, he walked into the bathroom carrying my book.

I'm not sure I want it back now.

[Paracelsus]

Ugh! I wouldn't want it back either!

ROFL!

Is there an autoclave available in your workplace? ;)

[R.A.F.]

All that I've ever done was question Paracelsus narrative of that evening...

Don't assume.

Why should she stop now? First she assumed I was calling her a liar, her evidence for that was she didn't like that I had disagreed with her...

Now, because I question her reaction (or should I say over-reaction) to my posts, then that MUST mean that I somehow hate her????

It's called "playing the victim" and I refuse to be the enabler for her victimization.

Paracelsus, you will have to find someone else to hate you, as I will not play that "role".

[Fazor]

Okay, I'm just now figuring out that this is a different thread than a similarly titled/topiced on from back in like (November?). Sorry if my above posts were off topic, I was mistaken on the thread. "My bad". :)

Anyway Paracelsus; RAF, Gillian, and CM have been around long enough (or at least longer than myself) and I doubt anything you said was bad enough to get under thier respective skins. I might have missed something; it's hard to read through 4 pages of a thread that you missed along it's evolution and get the same effect as if you were following the conversation from the get-go; but I didn't see anything that bad.

As far as standing up to rudeness: I tend to avoid fires when I can. Doesn't mean that I don't want to. There was some [adjective of choice] guy last night driving his "muscle car" (an old car he obviously "rebuilt", but did a fairly crappy job) up and down our neighborhood peeling out down every block. Kids regularly play in the streets, and we have a lot of people that walk thier pets. I don't know who he thought he was impressing, but I was ready to throw a brick through his windshield.

Then I thought of the more pasifistic approach; going up to him and engaging him with the line "Dude! Sweet car! That thing is awsome. Too bad the driver is a moron that just gave me enough time to get his plate number. Thanks!" then call the cops.

Instead of the violence or the sarcasm, I opted for choice three and just continued BBQ my rack of Ribs.

[Paracelsus]

All that I've ever done was question Paracelsus narrative of that evening...



Why should she stop now? First she assumed I was calling her a liar, her evidence for that was she didn't like that I had disagreed with her...

Now, because I question her reaction (or should I say over-reaction) to my posts, then that MUST mean that I somehow hate her????

It's called "playing the victim" and I refuse to be the enabler for her victimization.

Paracelsus, you will have to find someone else to hate you, as I will not play that "role".

I wasn't playing the victim. I wasn't blaming anyone but myself.

Am glad to see that you don't 'hate me', RAF. :)

[Noclevername]

It's called "playing the victim" and I refuse to be the enabler for her victimization.

Paracelsus, you will have to find someone else to hate you, as I will not play that "role".

And now you're making assumptions about her motivations. :rolleyes: She might just be oversensitive; I know plenty of people like that, my mom being one.

Both of you, if you want to know what someone thinks, or why they're doing something, ask them. ;)

[Paracelsus]

Well, I think RAF has been pretty clear what he thinks about at least a few issues. ;)

I can be either insensitive or oversensitive, depending upon the circumstances. There are times that I can take criticism, and there are times that I can be absolutely pig-headed. There are also some issues that I tend to be super-sensitive about; whereas, on other issues, you can criticise me all day and won't get a blink out of me.

Usually, I don't respond well to criticism that appears to be an attack on my character (I put that in italics to indicate that my reaction is due to my interpretation of the intent not necessarily the original intent of the criticism, RAF). Yikes, that is a tangled sentence!

Glad to see I'm not on your ignore list, RAF! ;)

[Nicholas_Bostaph]

I get the impression that quite a few people in this forum have never actually worked in any kind of service related business.

In a culture afflicted with an epidemic of severe self-entitlement, I could see two years of mandatory occupation in a retail or food service environment as a healthy way to give the over-accommodated a little perspective. Gives a glimpse of what you look like from the other side of the counter.


I started working in retail at 12 years old, and continued until I finally got a full time job in IT, working in retail management for the latter third of that time, so I hope nobody feels my following responses are without merit because of lack of experience.




The waiter is there to take your food order.

I think this sentiment right here, which has been slowly creeping into the retail/service workforce over the past few decades, is the real problem. This is exactly what most waiters, service employees, and retail workers think of as their job responsibilities, and it couldn't be farther from the truth. I think it's at the core of why consumers are moving to online shopping, and why you often here lament about the loss of 'ma and pa shops'.

The waiter’s job isn't to take your food order, but to be a designated representative of the employing business and its owners. The retail worker is not supposed to be comfortable and happy; that's the job of the customer. The worker is getting paid to work, and that means their sole purpose in life while they are at work should be to make the customer feel like a walking demi-god. Every word, every movement, and every inflection should be specifically chosen and executed for effectiveness. So the waiter's job is just as much to insure fair and prompt service as it is to just take an order and drop off food. This places the blame in this situation, in my opinion, squarely on the shoulders of the waiter.




First the op believed the other table must be at fault, flag number one. Second the op asked for advice on dealing with rude behavior when they were, in fact, the only party(at least according to the anecdote)to actually act rude, flag number two.

Curiously, when you ordered your food, did you glance around the restaurant to see if anyone else was being "neglected"?
Implicit in these statements is that ignorance is an excuse. This could be a fundamental philosophical disagreement between us, in which case I think we would have to simply agree to disagree. However, I don't believe that ignorance of one's surroundings is ever an excuse for inconveniencing others.

If you plan to be anything other than quick and efficient when dealing with a waiter, that's perfectly fine, but before making such a decision should take note of your environment and circumstances, and consider how that choice will affect the waiter and those counting on the waiter. Even if no one else is waiting on him, he may have other job responsibilities that you are keeping him from. Unless he is leading the conversation, which conveys the message of "I have no other responsibilities to attend to so we can talk", there is no way to know for sure what effect your conversation is having. So it is safest to simply not have it.

Assuming the situation occurred as described, the party in question went far beyond even this level of subtle oversight though. To converse for that long a time, especially when in clear view of other tables that require attention, is unquestionably rude. I think we've established that the information was available for them to know the inconvenience they were causing. Thus to be ignorant was a choice. So the only defense of that party's actions is an argument that willful ignorance is acceptable, which is an idea that I would think this board would be squarely against.

So I think that just as much blame lies with the table in question.



Keep in mind, also, that the op reported being quick and efficient in their own ordering. They had no need to look around to see if others needed service as it was their fair turn to engage the waiter in his job responsibilities. As a simple analogy, if there is someone in front of you in line, and a retail clerk tries to ring you up next, would you step ahead and allow the person whose turn it is to be bypassed? Is doing so any different than checking out when no one else is in front of you? The op was equivalent to the latter while the other party was equivalent to the former. Engaging a worker in their job responsibilities is different than forcing them to neglect fair application of those responsibilities to other customers.

[Paracelsus]

Thank you, Nicholas Bostaph! :)
The issues explored in your post do not excuse my behavior, but I think they offer valuable insight on how people in the food service industry would have viewed the situation.

[Gillianren]

There is no one on my ignore list. Still.

I'm glad you've realized that your behaviour was not the best, but let me clarify something, here.

I do believe that it's possible to politely confront rude behaviour in public. I do not believe that everyone is capable of it; I think quite a lot of people end up being rude themselves.

Why?

Because you cannot confront rude behaviour out of anger and be polite about it. You have to take a moment to center yourself, to push the anger to the sides of your brain. "Excuse me," you should say, "we'd really like to pay our bill now." You can say this a bit loudly, but only because you'll probably need to in order to get people's attention. You may--you should!--call the attention of a manager or maitre d' to the subject. There are certain words that should always be part of confronting rude behaviour; these words are "excuse me," "please," and "thank you." If these words are ignored, well, then the situation becomes trickier. However, you should start there, because those words are polite; if you do not use them, you are being rude as well.

[Spock Jenkins]

I solved this problem a long time ago. I simply have a reasonable idea of what my bill will be when I order and make sure I have payment in my front pocket ready. When the waiter drops the bill off, I ask them to wait one second and hand it back with payment. They typically get the picture that I'm ready to leave and take care of it right away.

I have been at restaurants for the first time and had questions about the menu and such that can take a little time. I would expect that if the waiter were in a hurry, they'd let me know that they would be right back.

I'm with Jeff Root on the whole tipping thing though. If you deliver pizza's, it's your job to deliver pizzas. Why should I tip you for doing what you're supposed to do? If you're a waiter, it's your job to provide service. If waiters don't think they make enough, their employer should adjust the prices accordingly and just pay them a commission on food sold (you think they press for desert orders now?). I really take exception to the policy of automatically adding an 18% gratuity to a bill. What's the point? It's no longer a gratuity when it's automatically added, it's just an additional charge.

That being said, I do follow the 15 - 20% guideline on tipping.

[Paracelsus]

There are certain words that should always be part of confronting rude behaviour; these words are "excuse me," "please," and "thank you." If these words are ignored, well, then the situation becomes trickier. However, you should start there, because those words are polite; if you do not use them, you are being rude as well.

I agree. I was too angry at the time to use them, however; the best option for me in that situation would have been for me to speak to the maitre d' or to get my husband to do it for me. He is a lot more easy-going about things than I am.

Thanks for posting that, Gillianren. :)

[Gillianren]

I agree. I was too angry at the time to use them, however; the best option for me in that situation would have been for me to speak to the maitre d' or to get my husband to do it for me. He is a lot more easy-going about things than I am.

Thanks for posting that, Gillianren. :)

You're welcome--and that's my point, really. Because you were angry, you yourself were rude. You didn't mean to be; I'm not saying you did. However, the reason I'm so careful to avoid people when my manic is manifesting in rage is that I cannot treat people properly and I know that. However, also because of my manic rages, I'm a lot more aware than the average person of what I'm like when I'm angry.