Why do we shiver when we eat something sour?

[Kelfazin]

When I eat something hot (spicy), I might react by spitting out the morsel, but it's a voluntary reaction. Eating something overly sweet can also cause a voluntary reaction. But eating an especially sour candy can cause an involuntary reaction. It makes my eyes water, my saliva glands go into overdrive for a second, my face contorts, my whole body shivers for a second...it's not pleasant. Why is that? What part of our evolutionary growth would make us react that way?

[Glutomoto]

Alkaloids are bitter and often very poisonous. your body is saying spit it out or die.

[01101001]

Alkaloids are bitter and often very poisonous. your body is saying spit it out or die.

Alkaloids in sour candy?

[Glutomoto]

Alkaloids in sour candy?

No, but the bitterness of the sour candy mimics the bitterness of the poisonous alkaloids. It takes the force of your will power to eat the bitter/sour candy therefore involuntary reaction.

[Kelfazin]

It takes a force of will to a habenero pepper too, you know it's going to hurt. It still doesn't cause an involuntary reaction.

[01101001]

No, but the bitterness of the sour candy mimics the bitterness of the poisonous alkaloids. It takes the force of your will power to eat the bitter/sour candy therefore involuntary reaction.

Bitterness in sour candy?

What kind? I taste sour: acid. I taste sweet: sugar.
It's sour candy.

What kind has bitter: base, e.g. alkaloid?

If it doesn't have alkaloids, and is just regular sour candy, won't one still react like this?

[Glutomoto]

Most if not all, animals avoid the bitterness of alkaloids.

You were asking if there is evolutionary reason for the reaction. I am claiming that plants fight off being eaten by making poison and that animals try to avoid being poisoned by spitting it out. The only Proof I can offer, at this time, are the many nature shows I have watched over the years.

[01101001]

I agree 100% that we resist consuming alkaloids, at least until we learn to love things like chocolate and coffee.

I just don't taste alkaloids in most sour candy, sorry. I'm not doubting that there are small amounts in some. Probably grapefruit or lemon sour candy has a little alkaloid in it, but it's just a minor constituent. And I'm sure I've had base-free sour candies that made me pucker up.

Why blame a base for the effect of a sweet-sour?

[Kelfazin]

I'm not saying you're wrong that it evolved as a defense mechanism, I just wonder why it's the only flavor that causes the reaction. Spicyness can cause a fair amount of distress, although you aren't likely to die from a chipotle.

[Glutomoto]

I can be wrong with the best of them.

maybe i was to quick to respond and did not think it through.

[Kelfazin]

I agree 100% that we resist consuming alkaloids, at least until we learn to love things like chocolate and coffee.

I just don't taste alkaloids in most sour candy, sorry. I'm not doubting that there are small amounts in some. Probably grapefruit or lemon sour candy has a little alkaloid in it, but it's just a minor constituent. And I'm sure I've had base-free sour candies that made me pucker up.

Why blame a base for the effect of a sweet-sour?

And yea, the whole puckering thing...what's that about? Bitterness is unpleasant, but the reaction is much less violent. You get a nice pure shot of citric acid and your whole body gets into the action. Unsweetened chocolate just tastes bad, you might grimmace, but that's about it.

[Frantic Freddie]

Somebody say food?

[Glutomoto]

when in doubt google.

from livescience.com
As reported in the journal Nature this month, scientists have identified a protein that detects sour taste on the tongue. This is a rather important protein, for it enables us and other mammals to recognize spoiled or unripe food.

maybe i was confusing bitter and sour. i must not be a super taster.

[Kelfazin]

having never really tasted spoiled or unripe food, do they commonly taste sour rather than bitter? Does decomposition increase the amount of acid present?

[01101001]

having never really tasted spoiled or unripe food, do they commonly taste sour rather than bitter? Does decomposition increase the amount of acid present?

Yeah. Like sour milk. Sauerkraut. Many bacteria emit acids as waste. Spoiled meat smells sour to me. Some day I will eat: Surströmming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surstr%C3%B6mming).

It wouldn't surprise me if some bacteria emit bases, though.

Some fungi who are our friends produce the famously bitter alcohol.

And unripe fruits are frequently sour. Green apples. Green tomatoes.

[Maksutov]

It takes a force of will to a habenero pepper too, you know it's going to hurt. It still doesn't cause an involuntary reaction.Habaneros. Mmmmmm!

[Ronald Brak]

The spiciness of a hot pepper isn't associated with poison so that may be why you don't shudder when you taste one. Birds can't taste the substance that causes peppers to be "hot" and it appears to be an adaption by the plant to get their seeds spread by birds. The fact that humans eat hot peppers intentionally just means they're weird.

[Maksutov]

[edit]The fact that humans eat hot peppers intentionally just means they're weird.Paraphrase of Mel Brooks in History of the World: Part I It's good to be weird.They're chiles by the way.

[Ronald Brak]

They're chiles by the way.

We call them chiles. I thought Americans called them peppers. Or is that what they call what we call capsicans? (Life is so confusing.)

[Maksutov]

We call them chiles. I thought Americans called them peppers. Or is that what they call what we call capsicans? (Life is so confusing.)Many 'muricans are seriously uninformed about the spicier things in life. Some of them think hot food can be got at Chili's, when that restaurant doesn't even have chile on its menu.

But at least a few of us know what is going on, including Frantic Freddie and myself (http://www.bautforum.com/off-topic-babbling/52029-you-say-tomato-i-say-5.html#post914358).

[Jeff Root]

Sour = tart = acid = pH < 7 = Net surplus of hydrogen ions in
aqueous solutions (or an equivalent electron arrangement).

Bitter = alkaline = pH > 7 = Net surplus of hydroxide ions in
aqueous solutions (or an equivalent electron arrangement).

Something bitter may also be described as "acrid", but I don't
know whether that term is analogous to "tart". My dictionary
says it means "sharp, bitter, stinging, or irritating to the taste
or smell."

I wonder if I am somewhat less sensitive to bitter taste than
most people. This subject was discussed rather extensively
just a couple of months ago in another thread here in Babbling.
I tasted the skin of a cucumber which I was told was very
bitter and had to be peeled, but didn't really notice any bitter
taste at all. What are some other things I can taste to learn
more about the flavor of "bitter"?

I dislike the smell and taste of coffee, but like chocolate and
"mocha". But that may be sweet chocolate rather than dark.

* * * *
The spelling and meaning of "chili" was also extensively discussed
in that same thread.

* * * *
The shaking of the body one may experience on tasting
something very sour is a shudder, rather than a shiver.

My personal experience is that unlike a cough, hiccough, sneeze,
or shiver, which are almost completely beyond concious control,
a shudder appears to be triggered by thoughts rather than a
physical condition. In that regard it is much like a yawn. I don't
know why a sour taste would make anyone shudder, but it does.

Fear can cause either shivering or shuddering. A shudder is
always brief and violent, while shivering varies in intensity and
duration, depending on the physical stimulus causing it.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Ronald Brak]

I tasted the skin of a cucumber which I was told was very
bitter and had to be peeled, but didn't really notice any bitter
taste at all. What are some other things I can taste to learn
more about the flavor of "bitter"?

There is a substance in orange peels that tastes bitter to most people, but because of genetics some people don't experience this bitter taste. Perhaps the same substance that's in orange peel was present in the cucumber peel? Try some orange peel and let us know if it tastes bitter.

[01101001]

What are some other things I can taste to learn
more about the flavor of "bitter"?

Wikipedia: Basic taste :: Bitterness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitter_%28taste%29#Bitterness)

Common bitter foods and beverages include coffee, unsweetened chocolate, bitter melon, uncured olives, citrus peel, many plants in the Brassicaceae family, dandelion greens, escarole. Quinine, the anti-malarial prophylactic, is also known for its bitter taste and is found in tonic water.

Bitters, a cocktail flavoring, might be worth sampling, too.

[Sticks]

This reminds me of my 1999 visit to the US, and the children of my hosts were into Warheads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warheads_%28confectionery%29) and I managed to phase them by eating them with no visible signs of flinching. My claim was that compared to British sweets, they were quite tame.

The trick is to salvate before putting the sweet in the mouth as a buffer to the malic acids and to wash it off asap.

[Kelfazin]

Thanks Jeff, I was actually looking for the word shudder when I wrote this but the word just wouldn't come to me. I knew shiver was wrong :)

I have some bitter apple spray that is made to keep cats from chewing on things (like speaker wires) that I once got into my mouth. It didn't cause a shudder at all, but it was certainly not fun.

[Kelfazin]

This reminds me of my 1999 visit to the US, and the children of my hosts were into Warheads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warheads_%28confectionery%29) and I managed to phase them by eating them with no visible signs of flinching. My claim was that compared to British sweets, they were quite tame.

The trick is to salvate before putting the sweet in the mouth as a buffer to the malic acids and to wash it off asap.

Heh my first experience with warheads was not that fun. One of my friends didn't tell me what it was and just asked if I wanted a piece of candy. I took it, popped it in my mouth, and promptly spit it across the room. I got him back some time later with and Atomic FireBall I had told him was a piece of cherry gum.

[SeanF]

I have some bitter apple spray that is made to keep cats from chewing on things (like speaker wires) that I once got into my mouth. It didn't cause a shudder at all, but it was certainly not fun.
Does that work? On the cats, I mean. :)

One of our cats was, I think, weaned too quickly or something. He's got an oral fixation and chews/nibbles on everything.

[Kelfazin]

Does that work? On the cats, I mean. :)

One of our cats was, I think, weaned too quickly or something. He's got an oral fixation and chews/nibbles on everything.

Both of mine were really young when I got em and they had weaned early too, so I know what you are going through. Yea it actually worked pretty well with my cats. The bitterness lingers for quite a while on your tongue (I'm sorry I know that) so it's something that really makes them avoid the things it's sprayed on.

[Tucson_Tim]

It takes a force of will to a habenero pepper too, you know it's going to hurt. It still doesn't cause an involuntary reaction.

My eyes water - that's involuntary. But it sure tastes good! :)

[Maksutov]

My eyes water - that's involuntary. But it sure tastes good! :)Quite right! Plus nothing like taking a good sniff of the wonderful fruity bouquet of a habanero before downing one of those beauties. That really enhances the flavor!

That reminds me, I have some habanero-stuffed olives in the fridge. Snack time!

[Gillianren]

Both of mine were really young when I got em and they had weaned early too, so I know what you are going through. Yea it actually worked pretty well with my cats. The bitterness lingers for quite a while on your tongue (I'm sorry I know that) so it's something that really makes them avoid the things it's sprayed on.

Unfortunately, what my cat has been chewing on lately is library books. (Wicked kitty!) No spraying those.

[mugaliens]

It takes a force of will to a habenero pepper too, you know it's going to hurt. It still doesn't cause an involuntary reaction.

Generally speaking, things that taste hot in nature aren't poisenous to us humans.

Things that taste sour are.

[Moose]

I have some bitter apple spray that is made to keep cats from chewing on things (like speaker wires) that I once got into my mouth. It didn't cause a shudder at all, but it was certainly not fun.

Really. Is this safe for soft plastics then, like wiring? They're not doing it as much but I've been at wits end trying to keep them from eating cables. Zoe has already destroyed my XBox360 headset. (Thankfully, not the most expensive headset I have, but I later caught her dragging that out of a shelf too.)

[Kelfazin]

Really. Is this safe for soft plastics then, like wiring? They're not doing it as much but I've been at wits end trying to keep them from eating cables. Zoe has already destroyed my XBox360 headset. (Thankfully, not the most expensive headset I have, but I later caught her dragging that out of a shelf too.)

Yea I sprayed it all over my speaker wires and phone wires and computer wires and even the softer rubber of my microphone cables. No harm.

Books though? Yea that's gonna be tough lol.

[Gillianren]

Books though? Yea that's gonna be tough lol.

And only library books, the wicked thing.

[Kelfazin]

And only library books, the wicked thing.

Maybe it likes the crinkle-noise of the protective cover..

[Gillianren]

He probably does. But I don't see a way to prevent that sensation.

Back to the OP, I think the sensation does have something to do with poisons. Capsaicin stimulates pain sensors, but it doesn't actually hurt us. A lot of sour and bitter things (and yes, I am aware of the distinction!) are poisons for humans; it's the most sensible explanation I can think of.

[Jens]

Generally speaking, things that taste hot in nature aren't poisenous to us humans.

Things that taste sour are.

I can think of a lot of things that are sour that aren't poisonous, though. Most fruits and certainly all citrus fruits. And they are things that human beings and other primates really love. What sour things are poisonous? I guess rotten things, as mentioned above.

But certainly, things that taste bitter are sometimes poisonous. But certainly not always. I think that part of the niche of humans is to be able to eat bitter plants that other animals will not eat. There are lots of plants that are toxic to other animals, but that we (at least me) actually enjoy eating. Stuff like parsley, oregano, chocolate. They all include toxic substances (alkaloids and tannins and things like that) that keep herbivores away from them, but we often like them.

[Kelfazin]

We gained the ability to eat them through evolution, I guess our violent response to those chemicals didn't disappear as it can still be useful.

[01101001]

We gained the ability to eat them through evolution, I guess our violent response to those chemicals didn't disappear as it can still be useful.

Some of us humans don't have a neural net advanced enough to protect us with knowledge.

Bitrex-brand denatonium benzoate warning flavor (http://www.bitrex.com/home.htm)