Southern California on fire, October 2007

[01101001]

NASA Earth Observatory: Fires in Southern California (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=17808)

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/Images/scalifornia_amo_2007295_tn.jpg (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=17808)

In what seemed like the blink of an eye, wildfires ignited in the paper-dry, drought-stricken vegetation of Southern California over the weekend of October 20, 2007, and exploded into massive infernos that forced hundreds of thousands of people to evacuate their communities. Driven by Santa Ana winds, fires grew thousands of acres in just one to two days. The fires sped down from the mountains into the outskirts of coastal cities, including San Diego. Dozens of homes have burned to the ground, and at least one person has died, according to local news reports. Several of the fires were burning completely out of control as of October 22.

This image of the fires in California was captured at 1:55 p.m. U.S. Pacific Daylight Time on October 22, 2007. Places where MODIS detected actively burning fires are outlined in red. Thick streamers of smoke unfurl over the Pacific Ocean. The brownish plumes are clouds of dust. Fires northwest of Los Angeles seemed calmer at the time of this image than they were the previous day.

[danscope]

I have often thought that some refitted C-130's with a scoop and drop
tank could be employed. They are next to the ocean, you see.
Also, so many homes have swimming pools. Duh!!!!!!! 2 inch pump with a volkswagen engine running on city gas or propane. Save your house anyway.
Oh well.....we have insurance. Is that really the attitude? Or are the Santa Anna winds just a once in 20 years thing?
There is this thing called plastic pipe. Pump some of the pacific ocean up for fire supression. This isn't as hard as going to the moon ,folks.
It just looks like they want to play cheap. Once you get burned bad enough,
you start to re-examin a situation.
" But...what shall I do?" asked Mrs. Frisbee.
The old owl said ..." Ask the rats. ......They have ways. "

Best regards, Dan

[sarongsong]

C-130s are standing by, as are choppers, but aerial methods can't be employed effectively until wind speeds decline.

[danscope]

Hi, It would seem that they need 10 times the amount of C 130's currently in the op area. Copters are small and expensive...usefull for spot problems.
Fires like this need a much heavier hand.
What a pity. Quelle tragique.
Best regards, Dan

[01101001]

Check out the new DC-10 airtanker (http://www.fire.ca.gov/newsreleases_content/downloads/2006archive/Tanker910factsheet.pdf) (PDF)

YouTube video from the Zaca fire last summer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW2s3XQ2njc)

[Manchurian Taikonaut]

Envisat captures California ablaze (http://www.esa.int/esaEO/SEM8U23Z28F_index_1.html)

I hope the people can evacuate safe,
The fires looks big from space so are any of the observatories in danger like Palomar, Wilson, Radio arrays etc ?

[DyerWolf]

Anyone have a link to a satellite image?

***Please don't answer this question - it appears to be redundant due to the merging of two threads - question answered.

[Neverfly]

http://www.bautforum.com/1095466-post6.html
This post...



http://www.bautforum.com/off-topic-babbling/66142-southern-california-fire-october-2007-a.html#post1095466

In this thread...

I think there are three threads now on this...

[Spock Jenkins]

Not sure if this is politics - but at what point do we stop subsidizing individuals desire to live in places that are cleary prone to natural disasters?

"You can build here - but you can not get insurance and the government will not pay to replace your house if it burns down."

[01101001]

The fires looks big from space so are any of the observatories in danger like Palomar, Wilson, Radio arrays etc ?

Don't know of any astronomy-related structures currently at risk. There are threats though.

Pasadena Star News (http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/news/ci_7254041) (ironic name):

From their perch high in the middle of a tinderbox of parched vegetation, there is little for the astronomers at the Mount Wilson Observatory to do but watch - and wait.

"It's scary up here, it really is," David Jurasevich, superintendent for the Mount Wilson Institute, said Monday as fire after fire broke out across Southern California.
[...]
Astronomers are taking turns patrolling for fires each night, Jurasevich said. One scientist watches from the catwalk of the 100-inch telescope where it was first discovered that the universe is expanding.

"We really can't do a heck of a lot," he said. "We've cleared all our ground brush to the Forest Service standards. We basically have to keep watching now and report anything we see."

[sarongsong]

...are any of the observatories in danger like Palomar...?So far, so good...October 23, 2007
Posted @ 5:15 AM
...LA JOLLA RESERVATION FIRE:
According to CALFIRE (http://www.fire.ca.gov/), a new fire is burning in the area of the La Jolla Indian Reservation...and people are being evacuated to the Palomar Observatory...
http://sosdfireblog.blogspot.com/

[Larry Jacks]

According to an unoffical fire map, it looks like my son's home is in the burn area. Offical sources are maxed out so I can't confirm anything.

My son got his wife and son to safety yesterday. Nothing else matters.

One annoying aspect of the "news" coverage is how much time they devote to the celebrities inconvienced by this fire. Who the hell cares? Why waste airtime talking about celebrities when they could be reporting on where the fire lines are?

[Spock Jenkins]

According to an unoffical fire map, it looks like my son's home is in the burn area. Offical sources are maxed out so I can't confirm anything.

My son got his wife and son to safety yesterday. Nothing else matters.

One annoying aspect of the "news" coverage is how much time they devote to the celebrities inconvienced by this fire. Who the hell cares? Why waste airtime talking about celebrities when they could be reporting on where the fire lines are?

Good that they are safe.

I am curious to know - how much was made of the area when your son first moved in? Was it noted to be a high risk location? What were the mitigating factors in the decision (meaning - if it was high risk - because of this we'll buy anyway)? Do they even have high risk fire zones like they do flood zones?

The reason I'm asking you is because with a family member - you will likely have a bit more insight than the average person who thinks, "Well - they must have known they would likely find themselves in the path of a wild fire when they built there!"

[NEOWatcher]

One annoying aspect of the "news" coverage is how much time they devote to the celebrities inconvienced by this fire. Who the hell cares?
I wouldn't mind if they are side stories within a larger story, but when they make an entire story out of the celebrity, or "duh" dribble, then that's when I have the issue.
Examples:
Fire affects TV shows, celebrities (http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/10/23/fire.entertainment/index.html)
Some actors can't make make it to work.
Smoke poses serious health risk (http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/10/23/env.health/index.html)
And the fire is safe?

Why waste airtime talking about celebrities when they could be reporting on where the fire lines are?
Because it only affects the local people? :wall:
A third of a million people left out of thier homes, and they don't report on the whos, and wheres, and contact information for the friends and relatives.

I am curious to know - how much was made of the area when your son first moved in? Was it noted to be a high risk location?
I don't presume to speak for Larry, but I do have observations from many trips to Orange County. Anything that is not in an urban or densely populated area seems to be in a fire risk area.
All you need is a yard.

[Swift]

According to an unoffical fire map, it looks like my son's home is in the burn area. Offical sources are maxed out so I can't confirm anything.

My son got his wife and son to safety yesterday. Nothing else matters.

One annoying aspect of the "news" coverage is how much time they devote to the celebrities inconvienced by this fire. Who the hell cares? Why waste airtime talking about celebrities when they could be reporting on where the fire lines are?
Larry, maybe the information on this page from the Forest Sevice (http://activefiremaps.fs.fed.us/activefiremaps.php?op=maps&rCode=cgb), with a map of active fires, will give you a little more information. Good luck to your son and his family.

[DyerWolf]

NASA Earth Observatory: Fires in Southern California (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=17808)

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/Images/scalifornia_amo_2007295_tn.jpg (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=17808)


Thanks for the image!

I used to live in LA. In the 80's, I remember Malibu had a terrible fire. Looking at it at night, it seemed as if the hills were covered in lava. It was eerily beautiful.

I feel for the families affected - one report shows 250k evacuated - and agree with Larry that it is annoying to have to listen to how this affects celebs.

OTQ - the earthobservatory image above shows all of Nevada. Anyone know where on that map I might see the craters from nuclear bomb testing in the 40's-50's?

[Tucson_Tim]

" But...what shall I do?" asked Mrs. Frisbee.
The old owl said ..." Ask the rats. ......They have ways. "

Best regards, Dan

OT: From one of my favorite animated flicks.

So, did these different fires start spontaneously from natural causes?

[sarongsong]

San Diego local TV reports an exploding power transmission line transformer started one fire, suspected arson in another.

[RalofTyr]

I have often thought that some refitted C-130's with a scoop and drop
tank could be employed. They are next to the ocean, you see.
Also, so many homes have swimming pools. Duh!!!!!!! 2 inch pump with a volkswagen engine running on city gas or propane. Save your house anyway.
Oh well.....we have insurance. Is that really the attitude? Or are the Santa Anna winds just a once in 20 years thing?
There is this thing called plastic pipe. Pump some of the pacific ocean up for fire supression. This isn't as hard as going to the moon ,folks.
It just looks like they want to play cheap. Once you get burned bad enough,
you start to re-examin a situation.
" But...what shall I do?" asked Mrs. Frisbee.
The old owl said ..." Ask the rats. ......They have ways. "

Best regards, Dan

Best thing to do is not buy houses in dry brush. Eventually, in about 50 years or so, they'll be no dry brush left because everyone's built a house on it, but still....

[Larry Jacks]

I am curious to know - how much was made of the area when your son first moved in? Was it noted to be a high risk location? What were the mitigating factors in the decision (meaning - if it was high risk - because of this we'll buy anyway)? Do they even have high risk fire zones like they do flood zones?

I honestly don't know. They've lived in Rancho Bernardo for 5 years. There was a big wildfire that came fairly close to their home 4 years ago.*

I don't presume to speak for Larry, but I do have observations from many trips to Orange County. Anything that is not in an urban or densely populated area seems to be in a fire risk area.
All you need is a yard.

This does seem to be the case. Not being from southern California, I really don't know.

They own a townhome. In a way, that might reduce their risk. The home has a stucco exterior with a tile roof. That alone reduces the fire danger. In addition, it has an indoor sprinkler system so that might reduce the damage from a fire.

Larry, maybe the information on this page from the Forest Sevice, with a map of active fires, will give you a little more information. Good luck to your son and his family.

The server appears to be down right now. I'll check back later. Thanks for the source.

The unoffical source seems to indicate their home is in the fire area or extremely close to it. The last official map from 0530 this morning seems to indicate their home is just outside the fire zone. However, it lacks enough reference landmarks (e.g. named roads) to be certain. Either way, it's very close if it hasn't actually burned. A lot can happen in a few hours, too, especially when you consider the high winds they're having.

*The fire four years ago happened just a few weeks after we found out my daughter-in-law was pregnant with our first grandchild. I asked my son if Heidi was pregnant again. He kind of paused and said, "Ah, I don't know." They're trying so it could be a funny coincidence.

[RalofTyr]

I finally was able to view the fire map.

Why am I a little hopeful the fires will reach my ex-girlfriend's place? It should be there in another day or two...

[SirThoreth]

I live in Rancho Penasquitos, and was under mandatory evacuation since yesterday morning. Woke up at 6:30 AM, had my sister, her 2 kittens, her dog, my cat, and my desktop and my server out the door by 8 AM. She's driving my '04 Sunfire, and I'm in my '73 VW Thing. My condo is just inside the evac area (like, 50 yards inside the evac area) off the I-15 and the 56 freeway.

I'm currently sitting at work, which, if you're looking at the maps, is pretty much where the 805 and 52 freeways meet (the office is on the SE side of the junction). My bosses, who got evacuated last night, are cool with my cat and I staying here, and there's a 24-Hour Fitness nearby for, like, showers, so I'm OK. As long as the fires don't shift (there's a small one burning to the west of Black Mountain, off of Camino Del Sur, which is within a few miles, while the Rancho Bernardo fires to the west of the 15 are also about 5 miles away), my place will be fine.

Right now, the news is reporting that, based on the number of reverse 911 calls in the mandatory evacuation areas, and the 2000 census, we're looking at 513,000 evacuees right now. That's just...dang.

[Tucson_Tim]

Why am I a little hopeful the fires will reach my ex-girlfriend's place?

I don't know. Doesn't seem right though.

[Larry Jacks]

My son is in the Navy and stationed at 29 Palms. Since there's nothing at 29 Palms for his wife and son, they stay in San Diego while he is on duty. He goes home when he's not in his shift rotation cycle. He evacuated his family to the little trailer he rents in 29 Palms so they're all safe. They don't have to worry about fires at 29 Palms. It features a landscape only a little less desolate than that shown in the Apollo moon landings. There's not much there to burn.

Right now, the news is reporting that, based on the number of reverse 911 calls in the mandatory evacuation areas, and the 2000 census, we're looking at 513,000 evacuees right now. That's just...dang.

I can't imagine where all of those evacuees are staying. The 10,000 or so who're staying at Qualcomm stadium are only a small percentage of those who had to evacuate.

[SirThoreth]

My son is in the Navy and stationed at 29 Palms. Since there's nothing at 29 Palms for his wife and son, they stay in San Diego while he is on duty. He goes home when he's not in his shift rotation cycle. He evacuated his family to the little trailer he rents in 29 Palms so they're all safe. They don't have to worry about fires at 29 Palms. It features a landscape only a little less desolate than that shown in the Apollo moon landings. There's not much there to burn.


Yeah, that's the thing: a lot of people thing San Diego's in the desert, and it isn't desert doesn't burn. There's nothing to burn.

San Diego is mostly high chaparral, and chaparral burns like kindling.


Right now, the news is reporting that, based on the number of reverse 911 calls in the mandatory evacuation areas, and the 2000 census, we're looking at 513,000 evacuees right now. That's just...dang.

I can't imagine where all of those evacuees are staying. The 10,000 or so who're staying at Qualcomm stadium are only a small percentage of those who had to evacuate.

Friends, family, the Del Mar Fairgrounds, local high schools, local churches....or, in my case, at work.

[Swift]

SirThoreth,
I wish you the best of luck.

@ Larry Jack
Tell your son and daughter-in-law to stop having babies; they're creating too many fires! ;)

[RalofTyr]

My son is in the Navy and stationed at 29 Palms. Since there's nothing at 29 Palms for his wife and son, they stay in San Diego while he is on duty. He goes home when he's not in his shift rotation cycle. He evacuated his family to the little trailer he rents in 29 Palms so they're all safe. They don't have to worry about fires at 29 Palms. It features a landscape only a little less desolate than that shown in the Apollo moon landings. There's not much there to burn.


29 Palms is near an active volcano though...


And near some nice Cambrian layers I like to dig through on occasions.

[Spock Jenkins]

I really don't get it.

Fires and earthquakes in California. Hurricanes in Florida. Floods in Texas.

Yet Michigan - which has more land bordered by water than any state with the exception of Alaska and virtually no life threatening natural disasters - is faced with the highest unemployment in the nation and people leaving in droves. I mean - sure we have some annoying weather in the winter - but nothing that will kill you. We've got beautiful forests, mountains, huge sand dunes, islands, you name it. We don't have much in the way of traffic just passing through (we're a peninsula - either you're coming here or you're passing to the south of us). All that water with no worries about sharks or anything.

Our governor just can't seem to figure out how to make this state work.

[Swift]

I really don't get it.

Fires and earthquakes in California. Hurricanes in Florida. Floods in Texas.

Yet Michigan - which has more land bordered by water than any state with the exception of Alaska and virtually no life threatening natural disasters - is faced with the highest unemployment in the nation and people leaving in droves. I mean - sure we have some annoying weather in the winter - but nothing that will kill you. We've got beautiful forests, mountains, huge sand dunes, islands, you name it. We don't have much in the way of traffic just passing through (we're a peninsula - either you're coming here or you're passing to the south of us). All that water with no worries about sharks or anything.

Our governor just can't seem to figure out how to make this state work.
Hey, quiet there! :silenced: Ohio has the same "problem". Good, let them all move to California, Floridia and Texas, which, when there isn't some natural disaster, are fighting all the problems from too much growth. We can just keep sitting pretty on our giant fresh water source, deal with a little snow, and be happy as clams. Don't give away the secret.

[aurora]

I really don't get it.

Fires and earthquakes in California. Hurricanes in Florida. Floods in Texas.

Yet Michigan - which has more land bordered by water than any state with the exception of Alaska and virtually no life threatening natural disasters - is faced with the highest unemployment in the nation and people leaving in droves.


Wasn't there a tornado near Lansing last week? I seem to remember a story about an infant that survived it.

[Spock Jenkins]

Wasn't there a tornado near Lansing last week? I seem to remember a story about an infant that survived it.

One tornado once in a great while vs. the great plains and the number of tornadoes they get? Or millions of acres up in flames? Lived in Michigan for nearly 35 years and have never witnessed a tornado. Only had to go to the basement due to a warning once. I'll take my chances.

[Tim Thompson]

NOAA Operational Significant Even Imagery (http://www.osei.noaa.gov/)
This page features satellite images of smoke, hurricanes & typhoons, all manner of natural hazards. There are images of the Southern California fires smoke.

MODIS Rapid Response System (http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/)
Follow the Gallery link to pages of images from the MODIS instrument. These are the best quality satellite images you will see of anything, including smoke from the SoCal fires. Amazing tropical storm images.

National Weather Service: Los Angeles Oxnard (http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/lox/)
This is the NWS page with forecasts, satellite images and current weather for the L.A. & So Cal areas. Follow the satellite link. The 1-km LA area images are updated every 15 minutes or so, and do show the smoke plumes well. Evening & morning images, with low sun angle, show up the smoke best. Full disk images show that the smoke has spread wide over the Pacific Ocean off North America.

[Larry Jacks]

Yet Michigan - which has more land bordered by water than any state with the exception of Alaska and virtually no life threatening natural disasters - is faced with the highest unemployment in the nation and people leaving in droves.

Two words explain a lot of Michigan's problems: taxes & unions

But I digress. I just heard from my daughter-in-law. She had contacted one of their neighbors and heard the fire didn't get their home. It appears to have come within 1/2 mile or so. Too close. They may be allowed to return tomorrow to get some more of their personal belongings. I don't think it's a good idea to move home just yet.

[Swift]

But I digress. I just heard from my daughter-in-law. She had contacted one of their neighbors and heard the fire didn't get their home. It appears to have come within 1/2 mile or so. Too close. They may be allowed to return tomorrow to get some more of their personal belongings. I don't think it's a good idea to move home just yet.
That's very good news.

[R.A.F.]

Not sure if this is politics...

No...I'd call it short sightedness.

Do you hold the same opinion of fires started by arsonists???

[davidlpf]

Not sure if this is politics - but at what point do we stop subsidizing individuals desire to live in places that are cleary prone to natural disasters?

"You can build here - but you can not get insurance and the government will not pay to replace your house if it burns down."
Most of places are subject to some kind of extreme weather. Insurance is not subsidie it is so if somethimg happens you can replace the damaged items.

[Van Rijn]

One tornado once in a great while vs. the great plains and the number of tornadoes they get? Or millions of acres up in flames? Lived in Michigan for nearly 35 years and have never witnessed a tornado. Only had to go to the basement due to a warning once. I'll take my chances.

A google search turned up several F5 tornadoes in Michigan over the decades. I always found it amusing that my relatives would make a big deal out of any California earthquake they heard about (which were usually so small that nobody paid attention to them here) but essentially ignored all but the largest tornadoes in their state. In California, we've had a few F2 tornadoes over the decades, but tornadoes are rare, and usually are F0 when they occur at all.

If you want to pick a state without any kinds of natural disasters, it's going to be a short list

[RalofTyr]

Here's two pics of the smoke plume from my area. Those are the fires in OC.


http://aycu11.webshots.com/image/29850/2006059991129112884_rs.jpg

http://aycu07.webshots.com/image/32646/2006078317747943795_rs.jpg

[01101001]

Don't know of any astronomy-related structures currently at risk. There are threats though.

Pasadena Star News (http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/news/ci_7254041) (ironic name):

BA Blog: Palomar Observatory at risk from fires? (http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2007/10/23/palomar-observatory-at-risk-from-fires/)

The BA is seeking info.

News reports from a few hours ago indicate that some of the people evacuated from the fires near San Diego are being housed at the observatory, but a BABloggee just emailed me saying that the observatory itself has been evacuated.
[...]
If you have solid information (I stress the "solid"), please post in the comments [there in the BA Blog, and here in BAUT Forum].

[01101001]

Mt. Wilson tower webcam (http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~obs/towercam.htm)

Currently:
Southwest view showing smoke over Pasadena - Los Angeles - Glendale.

Solar observer comment posted on October 23, 2007 at 16:35 P.D.T.
Observatory weather: overcast sky with smoke and haze; winds calm; 67° F.

Palomar Observatory webcam (http://www.astro.caltech.edu/palomar/webcam.html)

Currently showing a missing image. (30 minutes ago it showed an interior shot of some telescope.)

Palomar All-Sky Surveillance (http://snoop.palomar.caltech.edu/)

Currently showing, as it should, last shot of last night's observing time: closed dome roof.

Lyon's Peak webcam (http://www.dilatush.com/LyonsPeak.jsp)

These cameras are located on Lyons Peak, just east of Jamul.

I think Palomar is on the distant horizon (behind the smoke) circa 50 miles north.

Parent of Lyon's Peak camera: HPWREN: High-Performance Wireless Research and Education Network (http://hpwren.ucsd.edu/cameras/)

Shows lots of San Diego area webcams, including Palomar Hale Telescope interior cited above.

[sarongsong]

At their 7 PM TV news conference, the San Diego County Office of Emergency Services mentioned 2 fires went across Palomar Mountain's base, but said nothing about the Observatory itself. The direct east wind has died down and is now shifting about unpredictably.

[sarongsong]

...They've lived in Rancho Bernardo for 5 years....The last official map from 0530 this morning seems to indicate their home is just outside the fire zone. However, it lacks enough reference landmarks (e.g. named roads) to be certain...KUSI-TV just announced fire-damaged Rancho Bernardo addresses may be listed here:
http://sandiego.gov/

[Larry Jacks]

Thanks. I heard they had an address list online and hoped to find it this morning. Their address isn't listed. Good news.

[JohnD]

This looks ominous:

Mt. Wilson tower webcam (http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~obs/towercam.htm)
Looking in wrong direction although smoke is distinct.

[
Palomar Observatory webcam (http://www.astro.caltech.edu/palomar/webcam.html)

Currently showing a missing image. (30 minutes ago it showed an interior shot of some telescope.). Still missing picture.

[
Lyon's Peak webcam (http://www.dilatush.com/LyonsPeak.jsp)

Shows what I take to be dense smoke, and nothing else.

John

[Spock Jenkins]

Two words explain a lot of Michigan's problems: taxes & unions

You won't hear any disagreement from me. Our esteemed leaders are still trying to run the state like the big three dominate the auto industry and union workers are the only ones who can tighten a lugnut at the factory. Oh - and if we have a revenue shortfall - let's raise taxes because with all our job creation - it's not like anyone is going to leave the state for greener pastures.

[DyerWolf]

Not sure if this is politics - but at what point do we stop subsidizing individuals desire to live in places that are cleary prone to natural disasters?

"You can build here - but you can not get insurance and the government will not pay to replace your house if it burns down."

Aside from Antarctica, please identify some place on the planet that does not have a native population.

People live everywhere - despite the potential for disaster: be it man-made, natural or otherwise.

[Spock Jenkins]

Most of places are subject to some kind of extreme weather. Insurance is not subsidie it is so if somethimg happens you can replace the damaged items.

Actually, the government does subsidize insurance under the National Flood Insurance Program for those who wish to live in flood zones. Private insurance carriers won't cover it on their own. Why don't they just make these areas off limits to development if it's that big of a risk.

[Swift]

Originally Posted by Spock Jenkins
Not sure if this is politics - but at what point do we stop subsidizing individuals desire to live in places that are cleary prone to natural disasters?

"You can build here - but you can not get insurance and the government will not pay to replace your house if it burns down."Aside from Antarctica, please identify some place on the planet that does not have a native population.

People live everywhere - despite the potential for disaster: be it man-made, natural or otherwise.
You are correct DyerWolf. But people may live "inappropriately" for the particular land. For example, building many permanent structures of flammable materials in a ecosystem that is subject to annual brushfires. Or building non-earthquake resistant structures in areas subject to earthquakes. Or non-wind resistant structures in areas subject to tornadoes or hurricanes. And just building more buildings than the carrying-capacity of the land.

As far as subsidizing individuals to do so, I think it is too political for me to give an opinion.

[Argos]

Not sure if this is politics - but at what point do we stop subsidizing individuals desire to live in places that are cleary prone to natural disasters?

Like the planet Earth?

[Doodler]

Not sure if this is politics - but at what point do we stop subsidizing individuals desire to live in places that are cleary prone to natural disasters?

Why should we alter the time honored tradition of parting fools and their money?

[Swift]

Actually, the government does subsidize insurance under the National Flood Insurance Program for those who wish to live in flood zones. Private insurance carriers won't cover it on their own. Why don't they just make these areas off limits to development if it's that big of a risk.
All I can relate is my own experience with this. My house is on the edge of a state nature preserve, a large marsh (wetland). Several years ago, our insurance company informed us that the area had been designated a flood zone (the middle of three categories of risk), that flood damage would not be covered, and we would have to purchase supplemental flood insurance, which we did.

Our house has been in this spot for 30+ years, and we have lived there about half that time. We have never had anything close to a flood and a little over a year ago our county had one of those once-a-century rainstorms. There was a lot of flooding in the area, but we had none. From what I know about wetlands, we are actually less likely to have a flood, not more. But there is no arguing, that I know of, about the flood zone assessment.

So, I choose to live here before it was designated a flood zone and have done the due diligence that is expected of me (flood insurance). Should I be required to abandon my home? That is not a rhetoric question, I seriously want to know how these kinds of cases fit in with your "ban development" idea.

[Spock Jenkins]

So, I choose to live here before it was designated a flood zone and have done the due diligence that is expected of me (flood insurance). Should I be required to abandon my home? That is not a rhetoric question, I seriously want to know how these kinds of cases fit in with your "ban development" idea.

As with most new laws - there should be a grandfather clause. I am referring to new development. There may not be many fans of John Stossel in this forum, but he had a chapter in his book about a multi-million dollar home he was able to build with only 100 feet of sand separating said home from the ocean. No private insurance carrier would cover it - but the government will. Why should our tax dollars be supporting such things? Should the government be in the insurance business at all?

I don't disagree with FEMA as a concept. But I think we know enough these days about the probabilities of events in certain areas to say to an individual that if you choose to do this - you are on your own. The government does not have the discretionary funds to cover the potential losses.

Perhaps local governments, based on a cost benefit analysis of potential property tax revenue vs. potential losses in a given time frame could choose to support such projects. I just don't think it's the place of the federal government.

Either way - I'm sure I'm way overstepping politics by now - but the question was posed.

[Doodler]

Welcome to the New America.

Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what your country can give you as a handout.

Personally I think anyone in the US who thinks the government should provide everything for them should be exiled to Venezuela...

As for grandfather clauses, those aren't always valid claims. Zoning laws can change, and those changes can throw businesses that have been in operation for decades out of their locations inside of 30 days, if the zoning commission has a judge in their back pocket.

[sarongsong]

Today we should be seeing the Martin Mars Water Bomber (http://www.vectorsite.net/avmars.html#m7) in action against the San Diego fires, sent down from Canada, along with six domestic U.S. military C-130s.

[Jim]

Mt. Wilson tower webcam (http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~obs/towercam.htm)

Currently:
Quote:
Southwest view showing smoke over Pasadena - Los Angeles - Glendale.


Huh. My son's house is down there somewhere.

[Larry Jacks]

Firefighting from planes is fascinating. Some of the best planes are relatively small but because they can refill their water tanks very quickly, they can put more water on a fire in a given time than much larger planes. I've read that 4 C-130s from our local reserve unit are either in California or on their way. A C-130 can carry a lot of fire retardant but it has to return to base, land to a complete stop, refill, and fly back to attack again. Depending on air traffic and the distances involved, they might be doing good to get 1-2 drops per hour.

By contrast, the Bombardier 415 (formerly Canadair CL-415) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CL-415) is a smaller plane that can do a running refill by skimming across the surface of a lake or perhaps the ocean, refilling the tanks in a matter of seconds. It's one of the best firefighting planes ever made. The Mars firefighting plane is much larger than the 415 (about 4 times the water capacity). It also appears to have those scoops so it can refill rapidly. While it may not be able to do as many drops per hour, the larger capacity makes up for a slower cycle time.

Those high winds make it hard to operate those planes. Some of them aren't useful in some areas, either. For example, we had some massive wildfires in Colorado 4 years ago. To the best of my knowledge, those water scooping planes weren't used because the high density altitude reduces their load carrying ability and there aren't so many lakes as a water source.

Giant firefighting planes like that converted DC-10 can carry a lot of retardant but the number of drops per day is probably very limited because the turn-around time has to be pretty long. Still, there are times when being able to dump 12,000 gallons in a single drop can be very useful.

[Larry Jacks]

Not sure if this is politics - but at what point do we stop subsidizing individuals desire to live in places that are cleary prone to natural disasters?

The US East and Gulf coast regions get hit by hurricanes from time to time. The South and Midwest are frequently hit with flooding and tornados. Many places in the western US are hit by wildfires. Some areas get hit by massive blizzards. The West coast regions get hit by earthquakes, wildfires, the occassional mudslides and even volcanoes.

What's left? Some 50% of the US population lives within 25 miles of a coast and/or in an earthquake zone. Where should they relocate to?

I strongly suspect that the government programs that help people rebuild after hurricanes and the like were passed (at least in part) to help line the pockets of developers who wanted to build and sell homes there.

[01101001]

NASA Earth Observatory: Fires in Southern California (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3)

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/Images/scalifornia_tmo_2007296_tn.jpg (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3)

Fueled by the powerful Santa Ana winds that whip from the high-altitude deserts of the Great Basin toward the Pacific Ocean, 12 large wildfires raged in California on October 23, 2007. The fires clouded the air over the Pacific with dense plumes of smoke that stretched across hundreds of kilometers. The immensity of the event is illustrated in the top photo-like image, captured by the Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS) on NASA’s Terra satellite on October 23.

[sarongsong]

Moist on-shore winds are expected to begin tonight/tomorrow as the high-pressure area over Provo, Utah driving the off-shore Santa Ana winds hopefully moves on... (per KUSI-TV weatherman John Coleman)

[Gillianren]

Huh. My son's house is down there somewhere.

So's my mom's. I haven't heard from her, but a lot of houses would have to burn before the fire got to her.

[Jim]

Threads merged.

[Spock Jenkins]

No...I'd call it short sightedness.

Do you hold the same opinion of fires started by arsonists???

I wouldn't build my house on a bomb just because after all it won't go off unless somebody lights the fuse.

I would say my view is quite the opposite of short sightedness.

[sarongsong]

Everybody's got to be somewhere---and you've decided to live...where?

[JohnD]

No reports of massive fires in northern Mexico, Tijauna area, though the KPBS Google map shows them spreading across the border.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=114250687465160386813.00043d08ac31fe3357571
Are the geography and ecology of that area any different from SoCal? Or is it that there are many fewer people living outside the main cities, in the tinderbox countryside?
John

[Doodler]

A guy I know in SWG lost his place in the fire. I'm linking a trio of Youtube vids of his tour of the place yesterday.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CgDpo06qsQ
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF-GEmjikGw
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yxZPS7G7qI

Pretty harsh.

[sarongsong]

Swg?

[Spock Jenkins]

Everybody's got to be somewhere---and you've decided to live...where?

I prefer to maintain a degree of anonimity - but I have indicated that I live in Michigan. West side of the state to be more precise.

We really don't have much in the way of extreme weather or natural disasters around here. Plenty of snow to shovel in the winter - but we're far from the hottest or the coldest. No volcanoes, earthquakes, extreme flooding, or hurricanes.

Pretty tame from a natural threat perspective.

As has been said earlier in the thread - the economy stinks - but you can't have everything.

My questions are sincere - I really don't understand why so many people choose to live in areas that appear to be in the path of this type of event. People staying near where they were born is one thing - but many of these areas are growing exponentially. And the transplants are coming from places similar to where I live that would appear pretty tame by comparison. Clearly my timing is not very sensitive. I apologize for that.

[suntrack2]

Here in today's newspaper, I have seen His majesty Mr.Arnold Swazneger, the governer of California, visited the fire spot there. But how this fire was spread, was it a natural fire in the forest!, or it was just undertake to burn the dry leafs surround with the trees by the forest man !. But sometime due to the fast winds the fire can take a damon's size by spreading all over in the forest.

[Swift]

But how this fire was spread, was it a natural fire in the forest!, or it was just undertake to burn the dry leafs surround with the trees by the forest man !. But sometime due to the fast winds the fire can take a damon's size by spreading all over in the forest.
I believe that much of this area is not forest (trees), but grassland. This climate normal goes through periods of being very dry and very flammable. In that state, it doesn't take much for it to start burning.

[Larry Jacks]

My questions are sincere - I really don't understand why so many people choose to live in areas that appear to be in the path of this type of event. People staying near where they were born is one thing - but many of these areas are growing exponentially. And the transplants are coming from places similar to where I live that would appear pretty tame by comparison. Clearly my timing is not very sensitive. I apologize for that.

By and large, people move to places where they can find work. That's why the population isn't growing (and may be decreasing) in places like North Dakota. Sure, you might be able to live cheaply but unless you're retired, you might not be able to make a living there.

For the most part, the employment prospects in San Diego are pretty good. Also, San Diego is a very beautiful place with a terrific climate and lots to do. It's an expensive place to live but people manage somehow. The downsides are the occassional wildfires and earthquakes.

My youngest son has lived there for 14 years. He went through a series of earthquake aftershocks (epicenter was closer to LA, IIRC) about 10-12 years ago. They had another set of serious wildfires 4 years ago. I don't know of any other earthquakes or wildfires during that 14 year period but I could be wrong.

Why do people live along the eastern or Gulf coasts when those areas get hit by hurricanes? Why do people live in much of the midwest or south when those areas get hit by tornadoes and floods?

[Larry Jacks]

I believe that much of this area is not forest (trees), but grassland. This climate normal goes through periods of being very dry and very flammable. In that state, it doesn't take much for it to start burning.

That's true, at least by what I've seen on my visits there. I saw some of the damaged areas from the 2003 wildfires. There weren't many trees there. Mostly, I saw grassy fields with some brush. Grass and brush wildfires can spread extremely fast especially with those high winds spreading embers all over the place.

[sarongsong]

Map (http://www.nctimes.com/news/top_stories/alerts/600-Fire1100.img) showing Palomar Observatory, just east of the conjunction of the Poomacha and Witch (Creek) fires. The westbound Santa Ana winds are over and resumption of the "normal" onshore eastbound winds have begun, allowing aggressive aerial water/retardant bombardment with five C-130s and numerous helicopters.

[Gillianren]

It isn't grassland; it's chapparal. Chapparal is its own kind of ecosystem that has evolved around fire. Many of the plants, for example, have seeds covered in a waxy coating that means they can only germinate after a fire. Interestingly, creosote releases its waxes into the soil when it burns, which actually makes the soil fireproof. This means that a major danger following a season of wildfires is landslides, as the hills once covered in creosote are more in danger of flooding. After the fire we had when I was in high school, the county seeded the slopes with grass in hopes of keeping them where they were.

Why did I live there? Why have I since moved to a region that is not merely also prone to earthquakes but, in fact, has a great big unexploded volcano in view on a clear day? Because the climate suits me, for one. If you like warm, dry weather, for example, you're going to live in a region with fire danger. (Actually, I don't like warm, dry weather; I was born in LA County.) In addition, human civilizations have pretty much always been in flood danger, because humans build alongside rivers. This is for both agriculture and commerce; these are still things that influence where people live today.

[sarongsong]

Palomar update:October 25, 2007
The top of Palomar Mountain hasn't burned in recorded history...that still holds true...when winds pushed the fire toward the top of the mountain yesterday morning...members of the Palomar Mountain Volunteer Fire Department forced back the flames. Air tankers repeatedly dropped fire retardant on the mountain's north and east faces...Ground crews raced to douse the flames that tankers missed...The danger is not over yet, however. Winds and embers are unpredictable...A lifelong resident of Palomar and head electrician for the observatory, Steve Einer said the volunteers were doing a tremendous job...
signonsandiego (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20071025-9999-1n25palomar.html)

[rigel]

my sister-in-law lives in that area. it is a combination of shrub trees in valleys,dried grass on hills. The further from the coast, higher altitude and more trees. Planted trees where people live. Looking at photos of burned houses, the trees are burned, but the grass is green.

[RalofTyr]

They said they shot and killed a suspected arsonist the 25th near the University of San Bernardino, however, there's no proof he was there to start a fire, as he ran from the university police and was shot when he tried to run one of them over. He could have been there to perv the co-eds.

Oh, and I was going to go hiking Sunday, when the fires started. I like to hike in the winds and nobody else is there and I have the park to myself. However, I thought if a fire started, I'd have people coming after me with pitchforks.

[sarongsong]

An emerging industry, perhaps---privatized emergency response:November 7, 2007
Naomi Klein: ...And what we saw during the California wildfires was something really extraordinary. People have gone back to their neighborhoods now...and are asking questions about why some of those houses were saved...in some cases, you can’t explain it, you know, it’s mysterious. But in some cases, it’s not mysterious. The reason why some houses were saved and others were not is because the people who lived in those saved houses pay insurance to the company...[that] offers privatized fire response...around $19,000 a year in insurance premiums. And as part of this special service, they get men in fire trucks, with the red hats and the bright red fire trucks---they look, for all intents and purposes, like real firefighters---spraying down their homes with fire retardant...simultaneous to the wildfires...a company called Sovereign Deed...run by people straight out of the military and intelligence who now have gone into the private sector...announced plans to set up a kind of a privatized FEMA in Pellston, Michigan...turning Pellston into their national disaster response center---once again, only for their members...Pay your $50,000 membership and $15,000 annual fees, and this company is stockpiling drugs, fuel, water, and for an extra premium payment, you can get a VIP rescue in the midst of some sort of unnamed disaster...
DN (http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/07/156211)November 9, 2007
...Until 1865, when the Metropolitan Fire Bridge Act was passed in the U.K., insurance companies had their own firefighters and were responsible for protecting their customers' homes and other buildings. That was the case in other countries as well, including the U.S. Customers were given medallions to place on their homes, and firefighters would look for their insurance company's "firemark'' before extinguishing a blaze.
Some victims of the California fires may wish they had their own firemarks...
Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=af3wCbWHvK4w&refer=home)

[sarongsong]

Oops! :)12/05/2007
Los Angeles residents who called 911 thinking they were seeing a fire were actually witnessing a meteor shower...
FireRescue1 (http://www.firerescue1.com/news/320543/)