Which to learn: French or Spanish?

[folkhemmet]

For a monolingual English speaker which language, French or Spanish, would be better (more useful to know, easier to acquire, etc) to learn? Is it true that once one learns one of the Romance languages, because they are cognates of each other, it is then easier to learn another one? In other words, lets say one learned to speak Spanish first would that make it any easier to learn French?

[Tog_]

I never learned French at all, but I can figure out bits of it from my Spanish. One of the big concepts is the gender assigned to nouns. Pens are feminine and pencils are masculine, so you get el lapiz, but la pluma. This is done in all of the Romance languages as far as I know so knowing the rules in one will help in the others. I think a lot of the sentence structure is similar as well, though I could be way off on that.

As for which to choose, I'd say it depends a lot on where you live. Most places in the US you'll find Spanish more useful, but it might be a lot different in parts of Canada. I would guess that those in the UK would get more use from French.

[Argos]

In other words, lets say one learned to speak Spanish first would that make it any easier to learn French?

We used to have French classes back in the day, down here. It used to be a pain for the Portuguese speaking fellows.

The romances of the Latium and Iberic peninsula are more closely related among themselves than French. It is easier to go from Spanish to Portuguese, or Catalan, or Italian, than going from Spanish to French.

I´d suggest Spanish as your second language.

[Maksutov]

Spanish.

It's the wave of the future, por favor.

Se habla un poco español, but I'm getting better at it.

[Paul Beardsley]

I live in the South of England - not far from France - but the colleagues and neighbours I have spoken to have favoured Spanish from a business point of view.

I did French in school, but I'd rather make a start on Spanish now than go back to improving my French.

I haven't heard any persuasive reasons for why Spanish is, as Maksutov says, the wave of the future, but people who seem to know what they're talking about tend to be quite adamant about it. I would be interested to hear the reasons.

[Argos]

I haven't heard any persuasive reasons for why Spanish is, as Maksutov says, the wave of the future, but people who seem to know what they're talking about tend to be quite adamant about it. I would be interested to hear the reasons.

1) Spain is the EU economy that grows the most.
2) The Spanish speaking population in the US is growing fast.
3) Latin American markets are on the rise

Plus, it is always a pleasure to read Borges in the original version. :)

[Dragon Star]

Spanish.

It's the wave of the future, por favor.

QFT. Spanish is the way to go if you are anywhere near America.

[Maksutov]

[edit]I haven't heard any persuasive reasons for why Spanish is, as Maksutov says, the wave of the future, but people who seem to know what they're talking about tend to be quite adamant about it. I would be interested to hear the reasons.Here's some information about that, amigo. (http://www.free-news-release.com/Spanish-Language--World--180-s--2nd-Fastest-Growing-Language---Are-you-studyng-it---Detail_5850.html)

French is dying. The colonial period is over. Plus any language that has too many vowels for simple sounds and is best pronounced with a lisp is rightfully doomed. http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/566/iconwink6tn.gif

BTW, in a strange case of being prescient, I took a year of Spanish in 5th grade back in the 1950s. Little did I know...

[Ivan Viehoff]

Which is more useful depends which places you want to go to. In general French will be more useful in Africa and Europe, and Spanish in the Americas.

Spanish is spoken (or used as a lingua franca) in Spain, Latin America (except Brazil and the Guyanas), and several parts of the Caribbean, and a few odd corners elsewhere.

Spanish is very similar to Portuguese and Italian. You can quickly pick these up from Spanish. Portuguese is spoken (or used as a lingua franca) in Portugal, Brazil, a handful of African countries, and a few other odd corners.

French is spoken (or used as a lingua franca) in France, parts of Belgium and Switzerland, parts of Canada, quite a lot of countries in northern and western Africa, some Pacific islands, parts of the Caribbean, bits of SE Asia, and a few other odd corners. It is more widely understood than Spanish by assorted Europeans who learned it at school, though this is largely becoming confined to an older generation.

French is rather less similar to Spanish, Portuguese and Italian than the latter are to each other. For the English speaker, the effort of learning Spanish is only slightly, not hugely, reduced by already knowing French. Spanish probably helps learning French to a somewhat greater degree than the other way around, but it is still learning a rather different language. Of course if your first language is something entirely different, like Chinese, Arabic, Turkish or Yoruba, then French and Spanish will seem a lot more similar to each other.

It has been demonstrated that English schoolchildren pick up some useful Spanish rather more quickly/easily than French. Not that the language learning (in-)capabilities of the English prove very much. I think more rapid progress in Spanish comes from the initial barrier that exists in French from Points a and b below. It isn't all one way though. Once you have got past the a and b issues, then c, d and e take over, and at a higher level Spanish becomes more difficult. Personally, I found French easier than Spanish, but I had more exposure to French from an earlier age, and so I do not find a and b a problem. In fact I pronounce French too well for my own good, because French aren't used to a Englishman pronouncing their language so well and in consequence speak too quickly to me for me to understand them. Although I now speak Spanish more fluently than French (having spent an extended period in Latin America), I still find French rather easier to read (because of d).

The issues are:

a) Spanish spelling is mostly phonetic (fairly strict pronunciation/spelling rules, very few words that sound the same as each other) but French has weird spelling with lots of silent letters and exceptions, and many words that are spelled differently but sound the same as each other.

b) French pronunciation is generally more difficult for English-speakers to master than Spanish. You can pretty much work out how to pronounce Spanish from a description in a book, but French is so weird that you really need someone present to give live examples.

c) Spanish grammar is somewhat more complicated: in practice, you have to learn and actively use a lot more grammatical endings and other word modifications in Spanish than French.

d) French word-order is fairly strict and rather English-like, but Spanish word order is rather less English-like and more flexible. People who fail to make progress in Spanish often do so because they fail to get an intuitive grip of Spanish word order concepts.

e) French vocabulary has more obvious and numerous similarities with English than does Spanish.

[Ivan Viehoff]

French is dying. The colonial period is over. Plus any language that has too many vowels for simple sounds and is best pronounced with a lisp is rightfully doomed.
It's Spanish you need to lisp for, at least European Spanish. Most French seem incapable of producing a th sound.

Colonialism, in the sense of repression of an aboriginal population and destruction of their culture, is alive and well in many parts of the world. The "liberation" of many colonial countries (especially in the Americas) was in fact the consolidation of the control of that country into the hands of the colonists themselves, with reduced interference from their country of origin, rather than any decolonisation.

[Jens]

For a monolingual English speaker which language, French or Spanish, would be better (more useful to know, easier to acquire, etc) to learn?

Mandarin.

Oops, sorry, that wasn't one of the choices. :)

[Argos]

The "liberation" of many colonial countries (especially in the Americas) was in fact the consolidation of the control of that country into the hands of the colonists themselves

Well, historians are that see Portugal being freed from Brazil in 1822. :)

[Argos]

Mandarin.

IMO, mandarin is never going be spoken by the masses out of China. And it is yet to be proven that [economically] China is not on a hen´s flight.

[Maksutov]

It's Spanish you need to lisp for, at least European Spanish.Guess Spanish in the Americas is pronounced a bit "harder" then. Most French seem incapable of producing a th sound.That may be true in a few instances, but to heck with the "th" hang-up. Au contraire, mon cherie. Let's hear you say Beaujolais without sounding lispish. Colonialism, in the sense of repression of an aboriginal population and destruction of their culture, is alive and well in many parts of the world. The "liberation" of many colonial countries (especially in the Americas) was in fact the consolidation of the control of that country into the hands of the colonists themselves, with reduced interference from their country of origin, rather than any decolonisation.Good definition of colonialism. But a lack of understanding of its demise. Not sure what that has to do with its relation to the spread or entropy of a particular language.

More to the point, Dutch is still spoken in a local manner in Indonesia, but is dying off. Ditto with French in Senegal, Guiana, Haiti, etc. As the colonial influence wanes, the imposed language does likewise. Either the native tongue(s) or a more popular, useful language then takes over.

Hence Spanish.

[Tog_]

Guess Spanish in the Americas is pronounced a bit "harder" then.

Actual Spain Spanish uses the th sound in place of the s sound which means that things like grathiath (gracias), and thoy de Barthelona, can be used to pick a Spaniard out of a group of Latin Americans with ease. I used to work with a guy from Mexico who used to have a lot of fun with the Spanish accent.:) I also ended up translating (as best i could) warranty information at Circuit City for a guy from Madrid. The th is very obvious. At first I wasn't even sure it was Spanish.

[Paul Beardsley]

1) Spain is the EU economy that grows the most.
2) The Spanish speaking population in the US is growing fast.
3) Latin American markets are on the rise

Plus, it is always a pleasure to read Borges in the original version. :)

All four of these reasons are convincing. Thanks!

I'll read the rest (including Mak's link) later.

[ToSeek]

1) Spain is the EU economy that grows the most.
2) The Spanish speaking population in the US is growing fast.
3) Latin American markets are on the rise

Plus, it is always a pleasure to read Borges in the original version. :)

Spanish is the easier language as well: fewer irregularities, and the pronunciation rules are more straightforward.

[Delvo]

Spanish, because French just sounds so foul.

[Ivan Viehoff]

When you pronounce Cecilia as thay-thee-lee-a (both th's unvoiced) as it is in thtandard thpanith, to me that thoundth like lithping. The Spanish even call it lisping, and have a legend that it arose from courtiers imitating a lisping king in flattery (though the legend is false). Even in American spanish, syoo-dhadh (ciudad) sounds like a lisp because of the th/dh sounds used for d. I don't hear any lithp in bow-zher-lay: zh is a sound lispers may have difficulty with. In general, European Spanish sounds more like a machine-gun and than American Spanish. So I would say the former is harder, but what kind of sounds sound hard or soft, as I have discovered in arguments with my Czech partner, is very subjective.

I wonder if you are confusing "lisping", a speech defect caused by lack of control over the tongue, tending to cause s/sh to be pronounced as th, with something else entirely, some kind of politically incorrect and entirely fallacious stereotype of the French for example.

I'm seeking to point out that this so-called demise of colonialism hasn't happened, except in a limited sense. The demise of colonialism is a convenient fiction for the new colonists. And before you ask, I'm not some kind of socialist. "Colonialism" in the sense of European powers conquering lands and colonising them with their populations has largely died out. But let us first realise that there was a large difference between what happened in the Americas, where a large number of colonists settled and outbred the natives, and India where a small contingent of "colonists" didn't actually colonise in any meaningful sense, but rather imposed economic control and sent their children home, and eventually mostly went home themselves. If we call the first Type 1 colonialism and the second Type 2, then it is apparent that Type 2 is a lot more reversible than Type 1. Ending Type 1 colonialism is more aobut recognising the abuses suffered by the native populations, stopping them, helping them preserve their society and giving them some restitution. This hasn't happened very much in South America, which is why I treat lectures from South Americans on decolonisation (I'm thinking Argentina/Falklands here) as rather hypocritical.

There is obviously a lot of Type 2 colonialism still going on, sometimes but not always more subtly than before, and the main culprit today is the USA.

But there is also a lot of Type 1 colonialism going on, though not much of it happens by one country conquering another as it used to. Only in that limited sense has there been a demise of colonialism. Instead, it tends to happen within large countries (conquered territory), where one ethnic group expands its influence at the expense of others. We see the Arab influence extending in North Africa (which is land originally conquered by the Arabs and placed in the hands of Arab rulers to the detriment of native Berbers etc), Han Chinese in Chinese-conquered territory, Javan influence spreading in Indonesia (handed to them by the Dutch without the need for them to conquer it), Russian influence in Russian conquered territory, etc.

But I do agree with you that French (and Russian) is becoming less useful a travelling language than it used to be, which is more about the dominance of English as an international language than anything else. Spanish is not declining in Latin America, indeed it is expanding as native communities in Peru, Bolivia, Guatemala, etc, lose their identity - the continuance rather than halting of the colonisation process. But it happened in the past - there isn't a great deal of Spanish spoken in the Philippines or Morocco any more.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Again, depends where you are. I'll probably never learn Spanish because I'll never need it. But I really need to work on my French.

[Argos]

Spanish is the easier language as well: fewer irregularities, and the pronunciation rules are more straightforward.

Yeah. Spanish is a very modern language. It was the last European language to mature .

Actual Spain Spanish uses the [I]th sound in place of the s sound which means that things like grathiath (gracias), and thoy de Barthelona, can be used to pick a Spaniard out of a group of Latin Americans with ease.

Yeah. That´s true. That sort of dental phoneme is very specific to the Iberic peninsula.

A propos, the way the Argentine pronounce the 'll' as in 'castilla' is unique too.

[Argos]

QFT. Spanish is the way to go if you are anywhere near America.

It is funny, because Spanish is only the third American [continent] idiom, behind English and Portuguese.

[Dragon Star]

It is funny, because Spanish is only the third American [continent] idiom, behind English and Portuguese.

I have never, never had to communicate to anyone who is Portuguese.

I have to fight to communicate with Spanish speaking people every day. So call me biased, but I've never encountered that.

[The Supreme Canuck]

QFT. Spanish is the way to go if you are anywhere near America.

Last I checked, Canada is, y'know, in the Americas and pretty close to the US. And Spanish is useless here.

[SeanF]

Mandarin.

Oops, sorry, that wasn't one of the choices. :)
Learning Mandarin is, shall we say, fun. :)

I took Spanish in high school, pero no recuerdo mucho.

[Argos]

I have never, never had to communicate to anyone who is Portuguese.

There are few of them in the Americas [well, in Europe too]. Still, there are nearly 200,000,000 Portuguese speakers in the Americas.

[SeanF]

I have never, never had to communicate to anyone who is Portuguese.

I have to fight to communicate with Spanish speaking people every day. So call me biased, but I've never encountered that.
You're biased. ;)

I don't doubt that Portuguese is probably the second-most spoken language in the Americas, but I think it's a pretty distant third (if even that) in North America.

ETA, just in case anyone was unaware, Portuguese is the official language of Brazil. I would suspect that the vast majority of Spanish-speaking people with whom Dragon Star is communicating are not Spanish, either. :)

[Lianachan]

I would say Spanish is the most useful out of those two. However, it's Gaelic you should learn!

[Ivan Viehoff]

I don't doubt that Portuguese is probably the second-most spoken language in the Americas,
I do doubt it, because it isn't true. Spanish is.

Populations (millions):

Portuguese speaking:
Brazil 185

Spanish speaking:
Mexico 107
Colombia 44
Argentina 40
Peru 28
Venezuela 28
Chile 17
+ about 10 more Spanish-speaking countries on American mainland
+ Caribbean ones (Cuba, Dominican Rep, etc)
+ Plenty of Spanish-speaking people in USA

So probably nearly twice as many Spanish speakers as Portuguese in the Americas.

[Lianachan]

ETA, just in case anyone was unaware, Portuguese is the official language of Brazil.

I was under the impression that the dialect of Portuguese spoken in Brazil was sufficiently different to be known as "Brazilian", and almost a language in its own right.

However - Brazilian Portuguese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Portuguese)

[The Supreme Canuck]

Same sort of thing as British/American/Canadian English or Parisian/Quebecois/Acadian French, I would think. As for Gaelic, well, I'd love to learn it. I just don't know where to go for that.

[mugaliens]

Spanish is by far more widely spoken than French, and if you're fluent in Spanish, you'll be able to get by speaking with Italians, most of whom understand a little Spanish (the parts that don't nearly directly correspond with Italian), plus, you'll be able to read most French (but not understand spoken French - that takes a totally different ear!).

[Argos]

So probably nearly twice as many Spanish speakers as Portuguese in the Americas.

Wow, Spanish America grew a little bit since I last checked. :)

That would make a total of 380,000,000 Spanish speakers. Isn´t it too much?

[Kaptain K]

My biggest beef with the "monolingual" is with those who move to another country and refuse to even attempt to learn the language. Instead, they huddle in their conclaves and expect natives to learn their language to communicate.

[Halcyon Dayz]

This must be the world's loneliest language.
Pémono. (http://www.ethnologue.org/show_language.asp?code=pev)

There are a lot of languages on the endangered list.

[Lianachan]

My biggest beef with the "monolingual" is with those who move to another country and refuse to even attempt to learn the language. Instead, they huddle in their conclaves and expect natives to learn their language to communicate.

Once, at a hotel on Crete, I witnessed an English tourist complaining vigorously to the staff behind the counter - who were discussing the problem and trying to talk to the right people so that her problems could be resolved. She was furious. Anyway, that evening I happened to be near her and overheard her telling another English tourist about it - one phrase I heard I will never forget: "they were there, gabbering in their ****** lingo". Fancy that, eh, Greek people in Greece speaking Greek to each other. What a disgrace.

[Argos]

My biggest beef with the "monolingual" is with those who move to another country and refuse to even attempt to learn the language. Instead, they huddle in their conclaves and expect natives to learn their language to communicate.

Yeah, they should learn the local language for their own benefit; for the sake of living a richer life.

On the other hand, I don´t mind talking with foreigners in their own language. It helps me to improve my abilities. Brazilians won´t pardon you if you deny them the chance to improvise some English, or French, or Italian... :)

[KaiYeves]

I have been taking Latin American Spanish since Kindergarten and am proficient. A lot of my friends take French, but I never see them practice or say things in it just for fun, as I do sometimes.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Heck, I took two years of university level Latin, just for kicks.

[Dragon Star]

Last I checked, Canada is, y'know, in the Americas and pretty close to the US. And Spanish is useless here.

Canada? Eh?

Besides, just about everything is useless there. *ducks for cover* :p

In any rate, yes, USA. Better?

I would suspect that the vast majority of Spanish-speaking people with whom Dragon Star is communicating are not Spanish, either. :)

Mexican, actually to be specific. I work Construction in FL, (presently trying to fix this cluster in Dallas though) nearly all of our crews speak Spanish (though a very high percentage speak English as well, just not fluently.)

And before anyone says, "oh, well Florida and Construction, duh" I've only been there since the end of January. I've lived in West Virgina, Ohio, and Kentucky the rest of my life. But I find that workers everywhere in the USA speak Spanish due to the level of diversity found here. I just think it's much more appropriate to know.

[mike alexander]

I took Latin and German and neither worked.

Of the two, Latin has proven more useful, especially since I enjoy decoding words. Just yesterday it hit me that a 'conspirator' is someone you breathe together with. I enjoy days like that.

[Jens]

It is funny, because Spanish is only the third American [continent] idiom, behind English and Portuguese.

Actually, apparently it's even wronger than pointed out by a previous poster, because Spanish is actually the first American continent idiom, followed by English and Spanish. According to Wikipedia, there are 320 million Spanish speakers, and just 300 million English speakers in the Americas. The figures may be a bit dated, and I think this refers to L1 speakers. But in any case, it's not clear that English is even the first language.

[Jens]

As a serious response to the OP, I think I would recommend Spanish. I speak both, because I lived in France when I was a kid, and learned Spanish in high school. Spanish has, as mentioned by others, less irregularity and easier pronunciation (fewer vowels). So I think it's easier to learn. Which one sounds better is a completely subjective opinion.

[The Supreme Canuck]

In any rate, yes, USA. Better?

Much. I've always hated it when people call the US "America." It isn't. It's part of America.

[Kaptain K]

Yeah, they should learn the local language for their own benefit; for the sake of living a richer life.
I agree! I have a smattering of German - all that's left of two years of high school lessons. I also know a little Spanish - living in central Texas, its hard not to pick up a little.

On the other hand, I don´t mind talking with foreigners in their own language. It helps me to improve my abilities. Brazilians won´t pardon you if you deny them the chance to improvise some English, or French, or Italian... :)
My brother is in Cancun, Mexico. They have a timeshare there and go every winter. He says that the running joke is;
"What's the difference between Cancun and Miami?"
"Everybody in Cancun speaks English and takes every chance to improve it."

[mfumbesi]

This is exciting stuff.
I have always wondered if I were to learn another European language which one would be nicer to learn. French appealed to me as it is spoken here in Africa (former colonies), but I've been sold on Spanish by your posts. The deal maker for me was the implication that I would be able to move to Portuguese (spoken in Mozambique our neighbour) and Italian (lots of Italian here in RSA) with ease.
At the moment I am sitting on eight languages I am contemplating expanding that list.

[Jens]

At the moment I am sitting on eight languages I am contemplating expanding that list.

Just out of curiosity, what are they? I know what one of them is! And I'm guessing a second is Afrikaans.

[Whirlpool]

For me , I prefer French . I had Spanish lessons back in College , and It's interesting to learn too, but I want to learn more of the "romance" language.


;)

[Argos]

Actually, apparently it's even wronger than pointed out by a previous poster, because Spanish is actually the first American continent idiom, followed by English and Spanish. According to Wikipedia, there are 320 million Spanish speakers, and just 300 million English speakers in the Americas. The figures may be a bit dated, and I think this refers to L1 speakers. But in any case, it's not clear that English is even the first language.

I see that my numbers, based on old conceptions, are grossly outdated. It looks like Spanish is really the #1.

[farmerjumperdon]

Spanish; for reasons already given by others. Consider location and specialty niche needs, but AOTBE - Spanish.

Anectdotally, I manage the relationships with our interpretive services vendors, and 94% of services purchased are for Spanish to English or vice versa. 2nd tier is Hmong, Vietnamese, and Somali at 5% total. All others together are 1%. The 2nd tier languages vary regionally, but in the USA, Spanish represents the highest demand without exception.

From a business perspective, Spanish is the only European language worth bothering to learn; and that is because of Latin America, not because of Spain.

[Argos]

For me , I prefer French . I had Spanish lessons back in College , and It's interesting to learn too, but I want to learn more of the "romance" language.


I´m under the impression that 'romance' here is not what you think it is. :)

[Jens]

I think so too, but I think that's why he used the quotations around "Romance." Because he knows it's not the original meaning.

* I wrote "he". Actually, I don't know if Whirlpool is male or female. Sorry if I was wrong.

[SeanF]

Much. I've always hated it when people call the US "America." It isn't. It's part of America.
Sorry, but it's a little late to make that complaint now. "America" as a shortened version of "The United States of America" is pretty much standard English.

In fact, I think if you check recent dictionaries, you'll find that "The United States of America" is given as the primary definition of "America."

[Jens]

In fact, I think if you check recent dictionaries, you'll find that "The United States of America" is given as the primary definition of "America."

Which dictionaries are you referring to? I suspect that there may be some difference between the American Heritage Dictionary and the OED, for example. It's possible that in Canada they might refer to the British dictionaries rather than the obviously much more authoritative American ones. ;-)

[SeanF]

Which dictionaries are you referring to?
I guess I'm referring to the dictionaries which would tell us what the meaning of the word is as used by the people about whom TSC was complaining. :)

I suspect that there may be some difference between the American Heritage Dictionary and the OED, for example. It's possible that in Canada they might refer to the British dictionaries rather than the obviously much more authoritative American ones. ;-)
Now, now - you're not using "American" to refer solely to the United States, are you? :naughty: ;)

Serious point, though - I don't have a copy of the OED, recent or otherwise. Anybody else?

[Maksutov]

It's all Martin Waldseemuller's (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN0332239320071203) fault.

[Disinfo Agent]

Is it true that once one learns one of the Romance languages, because they are cognates of each other, it is then easier to learn another one?It is true to one extent, but gets false in the nitty-gritty of reality. If you speak one Romance language, it's often possible to make out the general meaning of a text written in another. But of course it depends on the kind of text. And understanding the spoken language, or speaking it, is an entirely different ball game.

French is a bit of an oddball among the Romance languages. It's a bit more different from the others than they are to each other, I would say. (But be warned that this is just a purely subjective statement, in other words an opinion.)

In other words, lets say one learned to speak Spanish first would that make it any easier to learn French?In some ways yes, in others it would make it harder. Many people find that similar foreign languages tend to interfere with each other in their mind. They might grasp for the word mañana and end up saying demain.

My suggestion is that you first decide which language you really want to learn, and then head straight for it. Make no detours.

As a serious response to the OP, I think I would recommend Spanish. I speak both, because I lived in France when I was a kid, and learned Spanish in high school. Spanish has, as mentioned by others, less irregularity and easier pronunciation (fewer vowels). So I think it's easier to learn. Which one sounds better is a completely subjective opinion.Spanish seems easy when you don't go very far in it. It's easy to reach a basic conversational level in Spanish. French is harder because of all the unusual sounds and the quirky spelling (though English speakers should be used to quirky spelling). But if/when you start learning some hardcore grammar, you'll see that with Spanish you bought more than you bargained for. :D

[Disinfo Agent]

From a business perspective, Spanish is the only European language worth bothering to learn; and that is because of Latin America, not because of Spain.I thought that was English -- and not because of England. :p

[Noclevername]

From a business perspective, Spanish is the only European language worth bothering to learn; and that is because of Latin America, not because of Spain.

So then, the best one to learn depends on where you're doing business. In some places French is the lingua franca. (pun intended)

[KaiYeves]

* I wrote "he". Actually, I don't know if Whirlpool is male or female. Sorry if I was wrong.
She's a she.

[Jens]

Now, now - you're not using "American" to refer solely to the United States, are you? :naughty: ;)


Well, just for the record, I'm a 'Merican myself, so I don't mind the usage at all. To me personally, American refers primarily to US people. But I was just pointing out that this is not a universal view. I've heard that in Africa, it's common to use the word "European" to mean any white person. So people would call us European. Words are slippery things.

[Jens]

Spanish seems easy when you don't go very far in it. It's easy to reach a basic conversational level in Spanish. French is harder because of all the unusual sounds and the quirky spelling (though English speakers should be used to quirky spelling). But if/when you start learning some hardcore grammar, you'll see that with Spanish you bought more than you bargained for. :D

Maybe it's because I grew up speaking French a lot, but the Spanish grammar never bothered me that much. I suppose you're talking about the conjugations and the gender? They both exist in French as well.

What still bothers me about French, even though I used it as a kid, is that in many cases the verbs sound the same (like peu, peut, peux, whatever) but they are spelled differently. And I learned mostly by sound, so I always forget which letter to put at the end of the verb. In Spanish at least they sound different, so it's easier to remember.

But maybe you mean something more with "hardcore grammar," like verb tenses.

[Torsten]

I've always hated it when people call the US "America." It isn't. It's part of America.

But this use and understanding of the term is so widespread and ingrained that there's little point in fighting it. What really drove it home for me was being called American, and responding, "uh, no, Canadian!"

I grew up in a household where German was spoken, and I am still fluent, though my writing sucks. My own kids were in French immersion. A couple of years ago we were in Europe, and visiting with extended family living on the German side of the border from Strasbourg. One evening there were about 15 adults and teens present for dinner. The conversations were lively, and what really impressed me was how the languages spoken shifted almost seamlessly between French, German and English, depending on who happened to be talking with whom. My kids were right in there with their French, and I was very proud of them.

But I guess I'd just like to underscore what others have already said: Knowing more than one language can really enrich your life.

[The Supreme Canuck]

But this use and understanding of the term is so widespread and ingrained that there's little point in fighting it. What really drove it home for me was being called American, and responding, "uh, no, Canadian!"

Not in this part of the country. America means North and South America here.

Edit: On second thought, that might have to do with my peer group. I'm a political studies major.

[Ivan Viehoff]

French is a bit of an oddball among the Romance languages. It's a bit more different from the others than they are to each other, I would say. (But be warned that this is just a purely subjective statement, in other words an opinion.)
Not as much an oddball as Romanian, which has a strong Slavonic influence.

Sard (or Sardinian) and Rhaeto-Romanic (ie, Romansch, Ladin, etc) tend to come a bit of a surprise to someone with a knowledge of some of the mainstream Romance languages, much as Icelandic and Faroese do to those who have some mainstream Scandinavian.

French stands out from most other Romance languages because it has a much stronger Germanic influence on it (whisper it quietly): the Franks came from Franken in Germany, the Burgundians from Bornholm in Denmark (previously called Borgundarholm), and the Normans from other bits of Scandinavia. The French like to point to their Gallic (ie Celtic) substratum, but this actually seems to have had very little influence on the language, much as the Celtic substratum in Britain has had very little influence on English, in contrast to the strong French influence.

[Argos]

French is a bit of an oddball among the Romance languages. It's a bit more different from the others than they are to each other, I would say. (But be warned that this is just a purely subjective statement, in other words an opinion.)

I have the same impression. It has been harder to me to learn French than the other romances.

I also agree that Romanian is the oddball romance. It is barely understandable to me.

[Delvo]

I always call my country "the USA", but there's a lack of a word for things and people of the USA other than "American". Mexicans have the same problem referring to this country; they can call it "los Estados Unidos", but that doesn't give them a word for its things/people other than "Norte-americano"... and the fact that they use that has the interesting implication that they don't consider Mexico to be a part of "North America"... and also that they either aren't separating Canada and the USA at all or consider "North America" to refer to the USA exclusively, which would leave them with no name that I know of for the continent.

I think we should treat the acronym "Usa" as a name, which allows the version "Usan" for things/people from Usa, but that mysteriously hasn't caught on. The "Founding Fathers" were definitely negligent about coming up with a real name for this place.

Anyway, in the USA, Spanish has a chance of occasionally being useful, but French practically doesn't, at least not any more than Romanian and Khmer do. For travel, French would be more useful if you go to Africa or some parts of southern Asia, and Spanish would be more useful if you go to Latin America or some Pacific islands. I started to learn Spanish a couple of times, but quit for the same reason as when I also quit German: learning foreign languages is a lot of work!

But that work could actually get easier if you go for BOTH langauges at once, depending on your mentality. I remember linguistics and relationships between languages, and examples that illlustrate those principles, more easily than I remember a single foreign language's words, so I'm hoping to eventually get the chance to take both Spanish and Latin at the same time just to find out if it helps to be dealing learning and observing the relationship between them rather than either one in isolation. My mother has a degree in Spanish and has worked as a translator, but also took classes along the way in related languages like Latin and French and Medieval Spanish and some of the minor secondary Romance languages/dialects that are spoken in Spain and Spanish-like but not standard Spanish. She says it's all merged in her mind sufficiently to feel like it's just versions of one langauge she called "Splatin". Show her some text written in the Iberian Peninsula in the last couple of millennia or more, and she can tell you what part of the peninsula and what century it was written in.

[SeanF]

I think we should treat the acronym "Usa" as a name, which allows the version "Usan" for things/people from Usa, but that mysteriously hasn't caught on.
Not so mysterious, really. :)

The "Founding Fathers" were definitely negligent about coming up with a real name for this place.
That's probably because, at the time, most people thought of themselves as citizens of their state - the state's membership in the United States of America wasn't really meaningful, identity-wise. So if you were to ask somebody "What do you call people who come from where you do?", they'd answer with "New Yorker" or somesuch.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Just for the record, I don't mind citizens of the USA being called Americans. As has been noted, there's really no other word for it. But USA and America are not synonyms.

[KaiYeves]

I am, to outward appearances, simply a human. The fact that I live in the geographical region known as the United States at this moment is trivial.

[Noclevername]

I am, to outward appearances, simply a human. The fact that I live in the geographical region known as the United States at this moment is trivial.

I feel the same way, but unfortunately most don't. And if someone dislikes you (or likes you for that matter) just because you're "American", then how you personally feel about it won't hold much weight with them. And those Americans whose self-identity is tied up in their place of residence will see you as "unpatriotic" for not feeling as they do.

[Lianachan]

But USA and America are not synonyms.

You should try being Scottish and constantly seeing the UK referred to as "England", and all British people called "English". It's infuriating, especially from people who should know better.

Must admit, the word "American" makes me think of somebody from the USA. I guess it's probably just too commonly used that way. Oddily enough if it's used to describe climate, wildlife or something non-people related I always think of it as referring to "the Americas", though, including all of the constituent countries thereof.

[korjik]

You should try being Scottish and constantly seeing the UK referred to as "England", and all British people called "English". It's infuriating, especially from people who should know better.

Must admit, the word "American" makes me think of somebody from the USA. I guess it's probably just too commonly used that way. Oddily enough if it's used to describe climate, wildlife or something non-people related I always think of it as referring to "the Americas", though, including all of the constituent countries thereof.

I have never understood that the problem with calling an american an american is. Do citizens of Brazil or Argentina or Colombia or Canada call themseves americans?

the useage I have come across is identical to Lianachans. An american person is someone from the USA. An american creature is generally understood to be from either continent, tho most of the time it is indicated which continent.

[vonmazur]

I learned German,Latin,Spanish, Italian, and some Russian.....courtesy of the US taxpayers.....You will find only one thing peculiar with Espanol, "Bey de Baca==Beh de Burro....." and the long winded arguments over "Ser" y "Estar".

In other words, the BEE vs VEE pronounciation rule....ie: Chevy is Cheby etc... and the two verbs for "To Be" in Spanish. I think they have written long winded books about this, and I still have trouble knowing just what to say......other than..."Una Cerveza por favor, en Vaso frio con la Sal y Limon..." This is the most important phrase.....

Dale in Ala

[Noclevername]

Americans from the U.S.A. call ourselves Americans as a matter of course; 90% of the people who grew up here probably don't give it a second thought. It seems to be part of our national narcissism that we really don't consider how anyone outside the country sees that habit. Even those from the rest of the Americas.

[Disinfo Agent]

Do citizens of Brazil or Argentina or Colombia or Canada call themseves americans?They feel that they are as entitled to do so as any American™, and not without reason. It is the name of the continent, after all.

[The Supreme Canuck]

You should try being Scottish and constantly seeing the UK referred to as "England", and all British people called "English". It's infuriating, especially from people who should know better.

I make darned sure never to do that. When in doubt, go with British.

I have never understood that the problem with calling an american an american is. Do citizens of Brazil or Argentina or Colombia or Canada call themseves americans?

the useage I have come across is identical to Lianachans. An american person is someone from the USA. An american creature is generally understood to be from either continent, tho most of the time it is indicated which continent.

Again, I don't mind people from the US being called American. No one really does. The problem is when "America" is used as a synonym for "USA." Look at it from my perspective. More of North America is in Canada than in the US. And the US is a very small part of the Americas.

[Delvo]

...but saying "America" is not the same thing as saying "the Americas"...

[Noclevername]

Since our name actually has the word "America" in it, it may be considered just a verbal shorthand for a country that doesn't have a convenient nickname.

[Van Rijn]

I make darned sure never to do that. When in doubt, go with British.



Again, I don't mind people from the US being called American. No one really does. The problem is when "America" is used as a synonym for "USA." Look at it from my perspective. More of North America is in Canada than in the US. And the US is a very small part of the Americas.

If I want to refer to all of North America I say "North America." Or, I might say "Central America," "South America," or "The Americas" depending on what region or regions I want to discuss. I'm afraid that "America" is very well established as a name for the country.

[The Supreme Canuck]

...but saying "America" is not the same thing as saying "the Americas"...

No, but it's closer to "The Americas" than to "The United States of America." The US is only part of America.

I'm afraid that "America" is very well established as a name for the country.

Not here. In the US, it certainly is - but not here. That's my point.

[Delvo]

The US is only part of America.No, it's all of "America", because other than the USA, there is nothing else that's ever called "America". There are other things called "North America", "South America", and "the Americas", but there's nothing else competing for the name "America".

[Jens]

I think the problem has more to do with the adjective, however. What does "American" mean. In that case, it doesn't matter whether the noun is plural or not. A person from Europe is "European" and a person from the Himalayas is "Himalayan". So what is an "American"? It can refer ambiguously to a resident of the Americas or a citizen of the US. That's why in Spanish they usually refer to USAnese as "Norteamericanos". Of course, this again has its problems for Canadians and possibly Mexicans.

[Jens]

I have never understood that the problem with calling an american an american is. Do citizens of Brazil or Argentina or Colombia or Canada call themseves americans?

Of course they do.

[The Supreme Canuck]

No, it's all of "America", because other than the USA, there is nothing else that's ever called "America". There are other things called "North America", "South America", and "the Americas", but there's nothing else competing for the name "America".

Sorry, no. I'm in America right now. Also, I think that if you look in any dictionary, you will find that "America" is a synonym for "the Americas" as well as being used frequently to mean "United States" by those who live there.

[Argos]

To settle things: Let the inhabitants of the US be called Americans and the rest of us be called Americasans. :)

[Argos]

You should try being Scottish and constantly seeing the UK referred to as "England", and all British people called "English". It's infuriating, especially from people who should know better.

I´ve also been very careful about it, always. But people here really do not distinguish the nuances of your confederation.

[Moose]

It's pretty easy: watch the most local broadcast of Sesame Street you can find. If you get the US edition where the "second language" is Spanish, learn Spanish. If you get the Canadian edition where the "second language" is French, learn French.

Whichever edition that station broadcasts is the "dominant" second language to the most people in your region.

[SeanF]

Not here. In the US, it certainly is - but not here. That's my point.
Here I thought that was my point. ;) To wit:

But USA and America are not synonyms.
But - in the US, at least - they are. You can argue that they shouldn't be, but you can't argue that they aren't. Of course, the word "America" has other definitions besides "The United States," but that is one of the definitions.

And if any significant number of people in Canada use "America" as a synonym for "The United States of America," then it is a synonym there, too. There is no authoritative body determining English correctness - ultimately, it is determined by popular usage.

Really, you might as well argue that since "nova" means "new," an exploding star is not a nova.

(BTW, does anybody here have a recent copy of the OED? I'm truly curious as to whether "The United States of America" is given as one of the definitions of "America".)

[Lianachan]

I´ve also been very careful about it, always. But people here really do not distinguish the nuances of your confederation.

Do you mean your own neck of the woods, or BAUT by "here"? I know that it's too common a problem on BAUT. I'm sick fed up of correcting people here about it, but will continue to do so.

[Argos]

Do you mean your own neck of the woods, or BAUT by "here"?

Actually I was referring to my fellow countrymen, though I´ve also seen people here in BAUT confusing it on occasions.

[The Supreme Canuck]

But - in the US, at least - they are. You can argue that they shouldn't be, but you can't argue that they aren't. Of course, the word "America" has other definitions besides "The United States," but that is one of the definitions.

I can settle for that. In Canada "America" generally does not mean "USA." In the US, it generally does. Hey, problem solved. ;)

And if any significant number of people in Canada use "America" as a synonym for "The United States of America," then it is a synonym there, too. There is no authoritative body determining English correctness - ultimately, it is determined by popular usage.

Again, I can settle for that, though I can assure you that I have never come across a Canadian who uses "America" in the sense of "USA." Circumstantial, sure, but there you go.

(BTW, does anybody here have a recent copy of the OED? I'm truly curious as to whether "The United States of America" is given as one of the definitions of "America".)

I know that Queen's has an online version of the unabridged OED available for students. I'll try to crack that open and get back to you.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Here we go.

Brit. /{schwa}{sm}m{ope}r{shtibar}k{schwa}/, U.S. /{schwa}{sm}m{ope}r{schwa}k{schwa}/ [< America, the name of a land mass of the western hemisphere, consisting of the two continents of North and South America, joined by the Isthmus of Panama; freq. used also as the name of the United States of America; app. first used in M. Waldseemüller Cosmographiae Introductio (1507) < Americus, Latinized form of the name of Amerigo Vespucci (1451-1512), Italian explorer who navigated the coast of South America in 1501.]

[Moose]

I can settle for that. In Canada "America" generally does not mean "USA." In the US, it generally does. Hey, problem solved. ;)

I've actually never heard a Canadian use the word "America" at all except in very contrived circumstances. (America's Cup and the like.) "American", sure, to refer exclusively to the population of the US or the States (which are terms we seem to prefer.)

I've never heard a Canadian refer to themselves as American unless they were an ex-pat with dual citizenship. I've never heard one use "American" to mean "North American".

Again, I can settle for that, though I can assure you that I have never come across a Canadian who uses "America" in the sense of "USA."

Nor any other meaning. We simply don't use the term to any degree I'm aware of. I don't think what you're implying is at all accurate or fair, TSC.

Is arguing this really a desirable topic?

[The Supreme Canuck]

Oh, I've done arguing it by this point. I do still object to the use of "America" to exclusively mean "USA." It grates, since we are technically part of America.

Either way, I'm not taking the whole "arguing over the definition of a word differently defined by two dialects of the same language" thing too seriously.

[Rue]

Last I checked, Canada is, y'know, in the Americas and pretty close to the US. And Spanish is useless here.

Nonsense. The part of Canada I live in speaks zero French, but as a result of immigration I can hear Spanish and Portuguese out in public all the time.

[Halcyon Dayz]

It was probably a mistake to give two continents the same name.

I propose Thule and Lyonesse... :whistle:

[Noclevername]

It was probably a mistake to give two continents the same name.

I propose Thule and Lyonesse... :whistle:

Vinland and Amazonia. Or, New Atlantis and Terra Incognita. America and Vespuccia? (N. America would be Vespuccia, as S. America was the first to be called by the mapmaker's name.)

[Kaptain K]

I have a very vague recollection, from the 60s, of hearing Brazil referred to as USSA (United states of South America) to differentiate it from USA. I have no idea if it was true then or if it is true now.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Nonsense. The part of Canada I live in speaks zero French, but as a result of immigration I can hear Spanish and Portuguese out in public all the time.

Really? Toronto? Or Calgary/Edmonton?

[KaiYeves]

I propose Thule and Lyonesse...
That would be too confusing, as Thule is usually associated with the arctic.

[Noclevername]

That would be too confusing, as Thule is usually associated with the arctic.

Only because it hasn't been associated with or superceded by something else. If this continent had been called Thule, the earlier meaning would have become just a footnote in history.

[Halcyon Dayz]

Only because it hasn't been associated with or superceded by something else. If this country had been called Thule, the earlier meaning would have become just a footnote in history.

You mean continent.

You still would have Canada, the USA (which could call itself America without stepping on sensitive toes), and the Estados Unidos Mexicanos.
Together they'd all be Thulians.

[Noclevername]

You mean continent.


:doh: Yes, I did.

[Lianachan]

That would be too confusing, as Thule is usually associated with the arctic.

It is? By who? I've heard Iceland being mentioned, but the consensus seems to be that it's Shetland or Orkney.

[KaiYeves]

It is? By who? I've heard Iceland being mentioned, but the consensus seems to be that it's Shetland or Orkney.
"Ultima Thule" means "The furthest limit", and the most famous explorer who used it is credited as the first arctic explorer whose name we know.

[Noclevername]

"Ultima Thule" means "The furthest limit", and the most famous explorer who used it is credited as the first arctic explorer whose name we know.

But if there was already a continent by that name, he might've said something else, to avoid confucion.

[Lianachan]

"Ultima Thule" means "The furthest limit", and the most famous explorer who used it is credited as the first arctic explorer whose name we know.

Which explorer was that? The Thule I'm talking about is the one of Pytheas, mentioned in passing by Tacitus.

[Maksutov]

I've actually never heard a Canadian use the word "America" at all except in very contrived circumstances. (America's Cup and the like.) "American", sure, to refer exclusively to the population of the US or the States (which are terms we seem to prefer.)...The "America" in "America's Cup" actually refers to the schooner America that won it by beating all English comers off the Isle of Wight back in 1851. Since the Cup was successfully defended for 113 years, after a while the actual derivation of its name got a little muddled.

Had the winner been named "Canada" it would have been called "Canada's Cup". Or if the winner had been named "Protective", well...

[Moose]

The "America" in "America's Cup" actually refers to the schooner America that won it by beating all English comers off the Isle of Wight back in 1851. Since the Cup was successfully defended for 113 years, after a while the actual derivation of its name got a little muddled.

Neat. Nice to know.

[KaiYeves]

Which explorer was that? The Thule I'm talking about is the one of Pytheas, mentioned in passing by Tacitus.
Yes, Pytheas is usually named as the first Arctic Explorer. I couldn't spell his name, so I didn't say it.

[Lianachan]

Yes, Pytheas is usually named as the first Arctic Explorer. I couldn't spell his name, so I didn't say it.

I don't think he ever visired the arctic,just talked to people who knew of it. He's definately a well known classical explorer of the British Isles and north west Europe, though.

[KaiYeves]

I don't think he ever visired the arctic,just talked to people who knew of it. He's definately a well known classical explorer of the British Isles and north west Europe, though.
Exactly, he didn't visit the arctic, but for traveling farther north than any other classical Greek, books about Arctic Exploration often begin with him.

[parallaxicality]

I learned German,Latin,Spanish, Italian, and some Russian.....courtesy of the US taxpayers.....You will find only one thing peculiar with Espanol, "Bey de Baca==Beh de Burro....." and the long winded arguments over "Ser" y "Estar".

From my Portuguese, Ser e estar are pretty simple. Ser is what you are, estar is where you are or what you are doing. The biggest arguments I got into over translations involved "para", and the difference between "for" and "to". I still haven't worked that one out yet.

It's pretty easy: watch the most local broadcast of Sesame Street you can find. If you get the US edition where the "second language" is Spanish, learn Spanish. If you get the Canadian edition where the "second language" is French, learn French.

Whichever edition that station broadcasts is the "dominant" second language to the most people in your region.

Well, I live in London, so by that criterion I should be learning Hindi or Urdu.


(BTW, does anybody here have a recent copy of the OED? I'm truly curious as to whether "The United States of America" is given as one of the definitions of "America".)

It most certainly would do, as that is a definition with innumerable citations in common usage. Whether it is listed as the primary definition I don't know.

Do you mean your own neck of the woods, or BAUT by "here"? I know that it's too common a problem on BAUT. I'm sick fed up of correcting people here about it, but will continue to do so.

It's tedious isn't it? I'm currently engaged in a massive shouting match over on Wikipedia as to whether JK Rowling should be described as "British" or "English". People really care about these things. I don't see why ethnicity matters. If the English and Scots wish to be referred to as such, then they should break up and be done with it. Since they obviously can't stand each other, I don't know why they haven't all ready.

[Lianachan]

It's tedious isn't it? I'm currently engaged in a massive shouting match over on Wikipedia as to whether JK Rowling should be described as "British" or "English". People really care about these things. I don't see why ethnicity matters. If the English and Scots wish to be referred to as such, then they should break up and be done with it. Since they obviously can't stand each other, I don't know why they haven't all ready.
There definately are times where it's appropriate to say "English" over "British", just as long as people know the difference between the two terms. Please don't think that my desire to be known as Scottish, and indeed to live in an independent Scotland, has anything to do with a hatred of England. That's another common, and annoying, misconception.

[Lianachan]

Exactly, he didn't visit the arctic, but for traveling farther north than any other classical Greek, books about Arctic Exploration often begin with him.

I read far more books about the north atlantic area in those times than I do about arctic exploration, so will take your word for it.

[Disinfo Agent]

From my Portuguese, Ser e estar are pretty simple. Ser is what you are, estar is where you are or what you are doing. The biggest arguments I got into over translations involved "para", and the difference between "for" and "to". I still haven't worked that one out yet.That's curious, because people learning Portuguese and Spanish usually have a lot of difficulty with those verbs. Yeah, there's a rule of thumb, but it's often not obvious how it should be interpreted in each case without a great deal of practice. (A problem you don't get in French, I might add.)

[Moose]

(A problem you don't get in French, I might add.)

Which is good, because French has so many of its own complications. Complications that there's no cure for but practice.

:)

[Disinfo Agent]

How true! :D
French can be downright capricious sometimes. (Which just figures, I guess.;))

[Argos]

I have a very vague recollection, from the 60s, of hearing Brazil referred to as USSA (United states of South America) to differentiate it from USA. I have no idea if it was true then or if it is true now.


After the proclamation of the republic, in 1889, Brazil was christened "Estados Unidos do Brasil" [United States of Brazil]. Thats how it´s written on my birth cerificate. In 1964 the name was changed to "Federative Republic of Brazil]. I´ve never heard of USSA.

[Argos]

Vinland and Amazonia. Or, New Atlantis and Terra Incognita. America and Vespuccia? (N. America would be Vespuccia, as S. America was the first to be called by the mapmaker's name.)

I´d say it should be the other way round. Vespuccia should be South America´s name, since Vespucci covered all the SA eastern seaboard in 1503 [giving names to many geographical features that are still used]. In fact it should be called Cabralia, since it was discovered by Pedro Alvares Cabral in 1500. You could also called it Pinzonia, since Pinzón was also here in 1500.

Amazonia is not what defines the South American spirit.

[Neverfly]

I´d say it should be the other way round. Vespuccia should be South America´s name, since Vespucci covered all the SA eastern seaboard in 1503 [giving names to many geographical features that are still used]. In fact it should be called Cabralia, since it was discovered by Pedro Alvares Cabral in 1500. You could also called it Pinzonia, since Pinzón was also here in 1500.

Will you make up your mind? Sheesh...

[Kaptain K]

After the proclamation of the republic, in 1889, Brazil was christened "Estados Unidos do Brasil" [United States of Brazil]. Thats how it´s written on my birth cerificate. In 1964 the name was changed to "Federative Republic of Brazil]. I´ve never heard of USSA.
I said it was a very vague recollection. Thanks for clearing that up! :)