Kean ( it's 4.15am ) but stuck novice seeking help please :o)

[jani]

Hi,

I bought my partner a sky watcher telescope for Christmas which came with 3 lenses, a barlow doubler ( ? ) a motor drive, view finder and camera adaptor which I bought seperately.

The stand is an equatorial one and we've had a few problem to say the least get things set up as advised in the manual but figured we'd get it sorted sooner or later.

We are in the UK and the skies have been dreadful lately, but last night (5th) was perfect, stunning, full of stars, crisp cold night. So waiting til most of the lights had disappeared we tiptoed outside at 2.30am and found a star thru the small view finder. Grinned. Looked through the main lens and - nada. Pitch black. Nothing.

An hour later I established that I had only taken off half of the front dust cover. So I woke up my partner and off we toddled again into the garden - and - nada.

I am flumoxed. What are we doing wrong ?

With no lens in I can peek thru and see anything which is standing in front of the telescope. I can look down the tube and see the mirror at the end. I can also view my partner who is standing at the side of the main lens viewer.

At the bottom there is a small black plastic disc covering the mirror from the outside - should that be removed ? I would have to take off one part of the telescope to remove it if it will in fact come apart there.

I have read about alignment and perhaps this is the problem, but I am unsure of how to do this properly.

There are so many areas we are 'stuck' on which we can learn gradually, such as fitting the motor ! But to be unable to view anything at all is such a disappointment, especially as we have been so eagerly waiting for a night such as this.

Any advise, help, kick in the right direction would be gratefully received :)

many thanks,

Jani

[Kaptain K]

Welcome to BAUT!

First of all, is it one of these?
http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtinc/product.php?class1=1&class2=104

Second, most of the alignment can (should) be done in daylight - it makes it a lot easier to see what you're doing! First, make sure that the main scope and the finder point the same direction. Find an object at least a few hundred meters away. Center it in the main scope. Now look through the finder - is it centered in the finder? If not, there are one or two sets of three screws on the finder mount. play with them until the two scopes are aligned.

Third, it probably needs to be collimated (all of the optical components lined up properly). I'll leave this to others, since I don't know the subject well enough to teach it.

Fourth, start with your lowest power eyepiece (largest FL - probably 20 or 25mm) (no barlow).

[Sky-Watcher]

Hi Jani,

I speak as one who regularly and compulsively buys astronomy equipment which I then proceed to spend hours working out how to use and get results from. Don't give up these are early days. You need to persist in order to solve your viewing problems.

I suggest you contact your local or nearest astronomy society and join. It will be a good investment in time and money and you will find these teething problems much easier to sort out on the ground in the real world rather than cyberspace.

EQ mounts are notoriusly difficult to master. As you have a polar star up there in UK your polar allignment in good viewing condtions shouldn't be to hard to master. Here in the Australia its like a huge game of connect the dots and hope for the best!

Have a go at aligning your finderscope during the day using a power pole or some such object in the distance and get it alligned with the centre of you telescopes field of view.

For now don't touch the collimation screws near your primary mirror untill you have at least read an article on collimation or had a chat with someone local who knows what to do.

If you persist you will be rewarded and if you really want a great view your welcome anytime at my place in Tassie for a great view of the Milky Way.

Kind regards

Michael

[jani]

Many thanks to both of you for your prompt replies.

I was actually able to see through the scope today for some reason ! I am absolutely confused about what happened last night. We tried holding the telescope whilst looking through it but still had this total blackness, yet today I was able to look through it clearly and pull the twigs on a tree into very sharp focus using our smallest lens.

There is obviously a lot of tweeking that needs to be done and I will play around with getting an absolute alignment between the finder scope and the main lens.

I've read the manual a few hundred times but will do so again. We have a few books on order and had one magazine which proved to be 'beyond' us, and so we have bought another two today to have a look through.

We'll keep plodding on and will read through all of the threads in here, always a very useful place to pick up hints and tips.

Again thanks for your speedy replies. Will be very interesting to see if we actually see anything in the dark tonight !

Jani :)

[RickJ]

Sounds like you are having a problem finding the exit pupil from the eyepiece. Depending on eyepiece design this can be a difficult task in the dark. Some eyepieces are very sensitive to the viewer having their eye just the right distance from the eyepiece to see anything at all. By day the exit pupil is very bright and easy to find so no problem, but at night unless you are looking at the moon it is mostly black and can be difficult to find. Low power helps as the exit pupil is the size of the objective (in mm) divided by the focal length of the eyepiece (in mm). Always start with no barlow (you called it an extender) and the eyepiece with the longest focal length. This will give you the easiest exit pupil to find and the widest field of view to make it as bright as possible. It also helps greatly when trying to find what you are looking at. Practice by day with it set up just as you'd use it at night so you learn the right spot for the eye for the low power eyepiece. Going to a shorter focal length eyepiece will mean putting the eye closer to the eyepiece. How much closer again depends on eyepiece design. Some expensive ones hold this distance constant but they don't come with telescopes.

Rick

[jani]

Hi Rick,

I think you may have hit the nail on the head with your answer. I was a bit shocked to see through the scope so easily today as I hadn't altered it at all from last night, but had left it setup as it was in the conservatory.

I have just gone out to have another look now and find that the cloud cover is quite obvious and fairly rapidly moving and so another no go for us. I will do as you say and keep practicing with the shorter focal lenght eye pieces until I am comfortable with 'hitting' the right position more easily.

Until we actually get to swoon when looking through it we will continue to read up more about the stars. We were thrilled tonight to look up and say 'oooooh is that Orion?' and find we were right ! Wow we recognised something !!!!

Thankyou all for your input and advice, please please feel free to keep adding to it, whether in response to this initial question or whether to add a bit of info about something else you think may be of interest / value to us !

Thankyou

Jani :)

[jani]

Well tonight we actually saw something ! I have to say we were a little disappointed as the stars didn't look much larger etc than they do to the naked eye. Having said that, it IS possible we were viewing deeper stars ?

I tried a slightly more powerful lens but got nothing at all then. When we come to view planets such as Saturn, how will we be able to view them at a size suitable to photograph ?

We also found we still had a bit of problem with aligning the finderscope with the main viewing lens - all seemed well but when we tried to look at Orion we had great problems lining it up and in the end only ever saw it thru the finder scope.

We are satisfied that we have at least seen something now though and will continue to read the mound of books we took from the library as well as the magazines and books we have bought.

Can anyone recommend a listing which shows the RA times of the larger stars ?

One other question - regarding polar alignment - if we align up okay but then want to view something that is 'behind' us, do we just pick up the scope and turn it around or do we flip it over as we have seen some examples suggesting ?

I keep reading that the telescope has to be polar aligned before you can use the remote driver ( ? name )

I was going to look at a major star, like Sirius, and then put the ra scale to the 'time' for that, which I believe to be 07hrs 18.7 ~

As you can probably guess I / we are now getting totally muddled as to what is actually necessary to do and what isn't.

Again, any advice or help will be gratefully received.

Thanks,

Jani :)

[jt-3d]

Stars will not look much different since they are so far away. You will be able to see dimmer stars though and clusters. Planets are my favorite target, even Uranus and Neptune which are just small discs. Some nebulas are small and some are large. Same with galaxies. What you see depends on how dark your skies are. Mine are just a darkish shade of gray so I don't see a lot when I look at most galaxies and nebulas or nebuli or whatever.

I'm not sure but it sounds like your scope is a GOTO type. The very first thing you want to do is get the spotter scope aligned. This takes some time so you want to use something fairly far away that doesn't move i.e. a certain leaf on a tree down the street. The best I manage is a leaf two houses over. I'm surrounded by trees. :( Anyway, you need the spotter aligned so you can find alignment stars. Once you get the main scope aligned you will probably have to readjust the spotter. The leaf thing is just so you can find the stars in the first place, for alignment.

It takes some practice but after a few sessions you'll be able to set it up pretty easily.

As for something that is behind you, I've never heard of flipping a scope and you don't want to turn it either, or you'll have to realign it. It should reach a certain point and go the other way.

These words are just general tips. I am not familiar with your type of telescope. Good luck and clear skies.

[schlaugh]

I have to say we were a little disappointed as the stars didn't look much larger etc than they do to the naked eye. Having said that, it IS possible we were viewing deeper stars ?Even the largest telescopes only show stars - any stars - as points of light, never a disk (like a planet); stars are just too far away. And even planets will not have a large disk in most amateur scopes.

....but when we tried to look at Orion we had great problems lining it up and in the end only ever saw it thru the finder scope.Ummm...the constellation of Orion is huge and won't fit in any scope or even binocs. You may want to look for M42 which is the middle "star" in the sword of Orion and hanging from his belt. Use your widest-field eyepiece (one with the largest number in mm) and then you should see a dusty gray patch.

Can anyone recommend a listing which shows the RA times of the larger stars?Any good sky chart will have the RA and DEC coordinates; they do not change over time (well they do but not enough for the purposes of this discussion). Did your scope come with any software such as The Sky? The RA and DC should be in there for several thousand objects. And here's a short chart of major stars and their coordinates (scroll down):

http://www.essex1.com/people/speer/starmodel.html

...but then want to view something that is 'behind' us, do we just pick up the scope and turn it around or do we flip it over as we have seen some examples suggesting ?No. You'll need to "flip" the scope to align the setting circles to the coordinates of the object behind. Equatorial mounts can be notorious for making you go through some alignment gymnastics. And you may need to swivel or rotate the tube within the mounting rings so the eyepiece is at a comfortable viewing angle.

Sky and Telescope has a very good Basics section....worth reading, especially the section on Celestial Coordinates and using the Setting Circles:

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/howto/basics
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/howto/visualobserving/3304206.html

And another:
http://www.astro-tom.com/telescopes/setting_circles.htm

Hang in there!

[Veeger]

I'm not sure but it sounds like your scope is a GOTO type....
These words are just general tips. I am not familiar with your type of telescope. Good luck and clear skies.

I think everyone if offering good advice considering no one here is able to help in person. I think it important to know if Jani has a "Goto" type scope. If so, I think the best advice is forget about polar alignment for the time being, and operate the scope in Alt/Azi mode using one of the simple alignment techniques supplied with scope controllers of this type.

Of course a good finder scope alignment is critical in any case. Thinking about polar alignment and photography is advanced stuff if you can't, for example, locate the Orion nebula in the finder and then examine it in the main scope.

-Veeger

Edit: by the way jani, a "goto" controller has a database of celestial objects and when the scope is properly setup you can select an object (assuming its visible that night) and with the press of a button, the scope will "goto" the object automatically. Many scopes have this feature today. If you have it, I say forget polar alignment for now. (my opinion)

[schlaugh]

I think everyone if offering good advice considering no one here is able to help in person. I think it important to know if Jani has a "Goto" type scope...

Good point. It was the use of the term "motor drive" in the OP that made me think it's a standard eq. mount and not go-to.

jani, can you provide a picture or website link to your model? Or the model number or its specifications?

[Kaptain K]

I'm pretty sure (from looking at the Sky Watcher web page) that it is a single axis motorized equatorial mount (no GoTo).

[jt-3d]

I should have said tracker scope or something, not GOTO. I assumed jani's scope tracks. Being a Kmart special direct to Meade 10" goto rookie, I'm not up on all the types of scopes. My bad.

[jani]

Hi guys,

Thankyou all so much, it is heartening to see so many of you willing to help. I will have a good look at the links you have offered.

No the scope isn't 'goto' I did purchase a motor drive to attach to it, but have no idea where to put the darn thing lol so at the moment it is sitting in the box it came in. I will get a photo of the telescope as soon as possible to put up.

It is a skywatcher skyhawk with an EQ1 base / tripod D= 114mm F = 1000mm

Lenses. We have a Barlow x2 lens. A Super 10 long eye relief lens. A super 25 wide angle long eye relief lens. A plossl 20mm multi coated lens and I think one other too. And a moon filter :) Lord knows how we use that too lol.

Don't you just lurve newbies ?

Oh we also have a 31.7mm telecamera adapter and the motor drive, which looks like it should slip along the long RA arm and also fasten to something via a screw. It is battery operated and has a few switches on it, one I presume to be for Northern or Southern hemisphere. I've taken a few snaps and will pop them on here in a minute, if I can. Please excuse the mess behind the telescope ( including the dog )

Thanks again,

Jani

[jani]

I think I have managed to add a few photo's here - fingers crossed. :)

[schlaugh]

Thanks jani that helps. Suggest you leave the motor drive off for a while until you get accustomed to setup, polar alignment and how to use the setting circles.

The first task is to align the scope mount so that it points to Polaris, the North Star. Once that's done - and the mount is also level - then you shouldn't have to change the polar alignment again unless you change latitudes. The instruction book should describe how best to do this for your particular scope. ETA: I think it's on page 14.

Once the Equatorial base is aligned then you are ready to use the setting circles, and that link I gave is a good primer. But first, and if you can, dab some paint on the patio/deck/driveway to mark where the tripod legs touch the ground. Then each time you want to observe just align the tripod legs to those points and off you go.

Not sure where you are in the UK, but you might check into one of the local telescope clubs. Here's one for London / Heathrow:

http://www.freewebs.com/londonheathrowtelescopeclub/index.htm

And another fun site:
http://www.starparty.org/

[jani]

Hi there,

We're down in West Sussex, between Gatwick and Brighton. Our latitude is 50.99 degrees so I have set this up on the dec scale ( the one that goes from 0 - 90 degrees right ? ) and will lug it out later to see if I can see Polaris with it.

I am still so very confused though. I cannot work out, mentally or by looking at the telescope, how I would 'flip' / switch / or change the view so that I am looking at something in the sky 'behind me'

For example, last night, Orion was 'behind' me when I was looking at Ursa major and Polaris, if I mark the patio and put the tripod on the same spot each time then how do I view Orion etc ?

I have the two 'long arm' attachments I put on the mount, one shorter than the other which sticks out to the side, the other longer which is at the rear of the scope. If I turn the latter too far to the left it starts to come undone at the tripod, unscrew. The one on the side tilts the scope over. But neither of them seem to go sufficiently far enough that I would turn the scope using them to view so far in a different direction.

I have two small black knobs, the two silver knobs which both seem to be involved with the dec levelling and then the two which I put in place as described above.

If I just swivel the scope around on the tripod then instead of pointing up 51 degrees towards polaris, it is pointing to the earth because of the axis that it is swinging on.

I thought that 'all' you had to do with Astronomy was point in the right direction and look lol - cute eh ?

Because I want to be able to do astrophotography in the future it is vital that I understand and learn things, but I feel I am taking ten steps forward and two back ( at least going in the right direction ) and am afraid of confusing myself too much.

I understand how the RA circle works, moving so that the correct time is shown on the circle so that you are then viewing the star / planet that you want ( or near as darn it ) - I understand how to polar align - I don't understand where to go from there if the view point is out of range.

Where is Patrick Moore when you need him to hold your hand and say look dear, do this this and this and there you go.

We'll be seriously looking for some star parties, groups, night school sessions to join in as I think we are going to need someone to actually physically show us a few things so that we get the most out of this and don't tire of it trying.

We have a wonderful motorhome which we use a lot and can't wait to take the telescope with us to dark, quiet unspoilt areas to sit supping hot drinks while staring into space. Just got to learn how to do it now !

Maybe we should sell this one and buy one which is fully motorised and we only need to tap in the co-ordinates lol ( I joke, I'd rather learn. )

Looking forward to your next hints and tips :)

Jani

[schlaugh]

A couple of points:

1. RA is not exactly a "time" setting. It refers to a specific arc of the sky which matches the 24 hour clock since the Earth rorates along that arc. IOW, if a star is located at RA 12h 36m DEC -45 23 22 then it is ALWAYS at RA 12h 36m and DEC -45 23 22. (Planets on the other hand...)

Think of RA and DEC like Latitude and Longitude but plastered against the sky.

2. The scope should have a way for you adjust the tilt of the entire mount and that is what you use to align the scope to Polaris, not the DEC circle. Not sure if that was what you were saying.

The astronomy club is your best bet. You'll learn more in 15 minutes hands on with an expert than us folks giving you sincere but (very) remote advice.

It looks like a good scope, hang in there with it. You are quite right in that astrophotography requires a motorized mount to counter the Earth's rotation.

[RickJ]

I'd normally say to a beginner to get a alt azimuth mount not an equatorial one as they just add a level of complexity you don't need. They don't move at all like you expect them too. Below your latitude to the north west is east and east is west for instance. North is up and south is down, same as in the south. It's all very confusing to a beginner. Just getting the scope to point where you want it is very confusing. If your scope is on a tripod the legs can sometimes seem to be in the way of moving the scope where you want to go. They aren't but it can seem that way until you learn how the tilted axes work. Think of it as a standard tripod up down back and forth type mount tilted until the axis that was pointed straight up (the one that moves the scope right and left) is now tilted to the north by an amount equal to 90 degrees minus your latitude. You can still point the scope anyplace as you did when that axis pointed straight up though that tilt can make things awfully confusing at first. Also as an object crosses the meridian at some point you will find the telescope running into a leg so you have to rotate both axes 180 degrees to put the scope on the east side of the pier or tripon so it can continue to follow the object down to the western horizon. An inconvenience at best. Fork mounts avoid this problem but have other potential frustration such as getting you head between the fork arms to reach the eyepiece when viewing in some parts of the sky near the pole. But then even an alt azimuth mount can have problems when viewing directly overhead.

NEVER move the tripod or pier when viewing to find an object. This totally undermines the concept of an equatorial mount. To work visually the polar axis (the one you adjust to your latitude) must always point north. Visually it need not be all that accurate but north east won't work at all. It must be within a few degrees of north. No need to get picky and spend much time on it for visual use.

You mentioned photography. That is a whole different ballgame. The moon isn't a problem nor bright planets. Exposure time is short, a fraction of a second, so tracking isn't much of an issue. But if you want to take the stars then polar alignment must be picky. Far pickier than a beginner can usually achieve. I'd not try that through the scope for at least a year until you know a lot more about it. Though if you can get it within a degree or so of good polar alignment a simple camera piggy back atop the scope can take 5 or 10 minute shots of the stars much as you see them naked eye but will go at least 100 times fainter than the eye if your skies are truly dark.

Most clubs over here that I'm familiar with have an assigned person to help beginners. I don't know if that is common there or not. I find it isn't in some parts of the US unfortunately. Such a person is a great help if they have one. Otherwise you'll have to wait for a club meeting or star party for help which is very frustrating.
To links that should find a club in your area are:
http://www.astronomyclubs.com/
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/community/organizations
Contact them and find out what help is available.
The learning curve of this hobby is very steep, a good club with go a long way in making a foothill out of the mountain you have to climb before you can do the things you want to do. It certainly is a hobby you can't outgrow. I've been trying for nearly 60 years now and it keeps growing faster than I can keep up with. The idea that advanced amateurs can do work that was beyond even the best professional observatories when I first got on the hobby boggles my brain.

Also check out this link as well as others under "How To" in the left margin.
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/howto/basics

It will give you more questions to ask the club when you meet them. And more importantly, the basics needed to understand their answers. When someone does go over your head with an answer stop them and ask for a simple version. I need to be reminded of this all the time unfortunately. I prefer to be stopped before I see their eyes glaze over.

Rick