Favourite tautology

[Paul Beardsley]

In the 1970s there was a Doctor Who story called "The Deadly Assassin". So what do non-deadly assassins do?

In our local free paper, a review of the disappointing movie 28 Weeks Later referred to "gun-toting snipers". I have this image of snipers who had simply forgotten their guns that day, or else were equipped with catapaults and pea shooters.

An otherwise beautiful song in one of the Silent Hill games, "Room of Angel", has the irritating lyric, "sleeping dormant".

Any others?

[mike alexander]

Many, and I can't remember any at the moment.

Wait. 'Absolute best'. As opposed to relative best.

Not really a tautology, but restaurants advertising 'fresh salad'.

Does 'lying low' count? Can you lie high?

[Paul Beardsley]

Does 'lying low' count? Can you lie high?
If you sleep in the top bunk!

BTW I have insomnia. That's why I'm posting at 5am.

[Jens]

I'm not sure, but I think I've heard people speak of making "new changes."

[autumn1971]

Every time the word "unique" is printed, it is accompanied by a modifier which renders a tautology, i.e., "very unique", or "most unique", or else it is paired with an adjective which renders the word meaningless, i.e., "somewhat unique", or "fairly unique". Unique means singular. It does not mean interesting.

[Van Rijn]

Every time the word "unique" is printed, it is accompanied by a modifier which renders a tautology, i.e., "very unique", or "most unique", or else it is paired with an adjective which renders the word meaningless, i.e., "somewhat unique", or "fairly unique". Unique means singular. It does not mean interesting.

Yes, I was thinking of "completely unique," "perfectly unique" or "absolutely unique."

How about, "recent news"?

[sarongsong]

"One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind."

...and then I heard:Thanks to an Australian computer programmer...the missing "a" was found and the famous quote was proved to be "One small step for a man..."
answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/tautology?cat=technology)

[mike alexander]

How about 'uniquely best'?

[Ken G]

"Suspense thriller".
"and/or". (not always redundant, it is often used to mean "one or both", but in its literal form it appends the intersection to the union of two sets. You see it in situations like "you should read this if you are filing and/or paying income taxes", etc.)

[Neverfly]

"One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind."

...and then I heard:

Armstrong admitted later that in the moment- he slipped up and forgot to say 'A man."

To me it is not a big deal- and I kinda wished others would get off his back about it.:neutral:

He differentiated between the too, by using the word "mankind" at the end.- which makes interpretation possible.
It still works even as "small step for man" because Going to the Moon was indeed, our first small step- and also a giant leap for mankind.:)

[Frog march]

maybe he felt that all the people, on that mission, had made the "small step" and so didn't feel that it was fair to just refer to himself?

[Neverfly]

maybe he felt that all the people, on that mission, had made the "small step" and so didn't feel that it was fair to just refer to himself?

Yeah, that's similar to what I meant.

[sarongsong]

Armstrong admitted later that in the moment- he slipped up and forgot to say 'A man."......or: :)October 08, 2006
...Armstrong had "fully intended" to say the "a," but "Neil didn't know what happened to it," said the author of the 2005 biography "First Man: The Life of Neil A. Armstrong." The new proof indicates "he said exactly what he intended to say"...
MoonDaily (http://www.moondaily.com/reports/In_Space_Everyone_Can_Hear_You_Misspeak_999.html)

[Neverfly]

...or: :)

I had read from a different source.. but can't remember it right now and don't feel like searching.
Intending to say it and saying it are a bit different...

But either way works for me. :)

[Paul Beardsley]

I'm not sure, but I think I've heard people speak of making "new changes."
Well you can have old changes - some changes were made recently, others long ago.

But for some reason this reminded me of another one: forward planning.

[Jeff Root]

Redundancy doesn't bother me. It is usually a plus, not a minus.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[HenrikOlsen]

Abridged Encyclopedia
New Tradition

[Doodler]

I'm not sure, but I think I've heard people speak of making "new changes."

Try architecture. When you get "new changes" from a client while you're working on their "current changes", its gets irritating because they haven't given you any feedback after their "old changes" yet from the "original plan"

Not quite a tautology

[Matherly]

In the 1970s there was a Doctor Who story called "The Deadly Assassin". So what do non-deadly assassins do?


What about character assaination?

Not exatly the same, but I used to have a boss who wanted us to "Anticipate out customers need proactivly". Um... as opposed to anticipating them retoactivly?

[Doodler]

In the 1970s there was a Doctor Who story called "The Deadly Assassin". So what do non-deadly assassins do?

Screw up.

[madge]

closed fist

[madge]

honest truth

[Paul Beardsley]

Oh yes, those remind me: "involuntary shudder".

I was surprised to find this in H.P. Lovecraft's At The Mountains of Madness.

[jfribrg]

How about the question: "Are you hurt bad?"

Occasionally when my kids get a bump or bruise, I have to consciously refrain from asking this question, because if I do, they will instantly respond "Have you ever heard of someone who is hurt good?"

[Ilya]

In the 1970s there was a Doctor Who story called "The Deadly Assassin". So what do non-deadly assassins do?

An incompetent assassin is not deadly.
Can you lie high?
Yes you can. On a roof.
How about the question: "Are you hurt bad?"

Occasionally when my kids get a bump or bruise, I have to consciously refrain from asking this question, because if I do, they will instantly respond "Have you ever heard of someone who is hurt good?"
Your children are real wiseguys. Most people (children or not) understand the difference between "hurt bad" and "hurt not so bad/okay/tolerable".

[Disinfo Agent]

"Former Soviet Union" and "ex-Yugoslavia".

Make up your mind: if you are talking about the past, then they were neither "former" nor "ex" then. If you are talking about present time, then that's "Russian Federation" (or simply "Russia") and "Serbia" for you.

P.S. Love your newest avatar, Paul! :cool:

[Ilya]

"Former Soviet Union" and "ex-Yugoslavia".

Make up your mind: if you are talking about the past, then they were neither "former" nor "ex" then. If you are talking about present time, then that's "Russian Federation" (or simply "Russia") and "Serbia" for you.

P.S. Love your newest avatar, Paul! :cool:

Disagree. To my knowledge, "former Soviet Union" is a collective term (like "Western Europe") which means all 15 newly independent states, not just Russia. Same with "ex-Yugoslavia" -- it is a shorthand for "Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia and Macedonia".

[Disinfo Agent]

Well, I have seen or heard them be used differently in the popular media a few times. My impression was that "former Soviet Union" was more often used as a redundant synonym for either the Russian Federation (after the breakup), or the Soviet Union (before the breakup), and "ex-Yugoslavia" usually meant either "Serbia" (post-breakup) or "Yugoslavia" (pre-breakup). Still, I may have the wrong impression about how frequently the two terms are used in this way.

As a curiosity, I found this editorial note about "former Soviet Union" (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/world/exussr/) at the Washington Post online.

[mike alexander]

'good' vs. 'bad' cholesterol?

Cholesterol is neither good nor bad (after all, you absolutely need it for proper nerve conduction, etc.). What they are talking about are the carrier lipoproteins, both of which appear to be essential in proper amounts.

[mike alexander]

exact replica

just exactly

plan ahead

return back

And my favorite:

"Are you asleep?"

[mike alexander]

And the related message:

"Call me when you wake up."

[geonuc]

I think people are straying from the definition of a tautology.

While you may not agree with using the term "former Soviet Union", it is not a tautology. Neither is "good (or bad) cholesterol".

[Fazor]

I know we've talked about it before, but I can't stand the "Organic fruits and vegetables" section at all the grociery stores now.

My g/f probably thinks I'm some uberdork that likes to point out how smart I am (which would be ironic, considering I'm not that smart ;)), because every single time we pass that section, I can't keep myself from complaining about it. Usually it's something like "Oh, there's the organic fruits and veggies! How stupid of us, these ones in our cart must be non-organic!"

I mean, I understand they mean unaltered, or no chemicals used, or whatever they think justifies the 50-to-200% price increase, but use an appropriate adjective!

[Jeff Root]

Fazor,

The term "organic" is entirely reasonable if you know its history.

Similar statements can probably be made about nearly everything
else in the Universe.

P.S. I don't actually know the history of this use of the term
"organic", but my guess is that it originally meant "not from the
Haber process".

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Noclevername]

Organic has several definitions, just like a lot of words. That's why dictionaries are usually so heavy.

[farmerjumperdon]

I think these are redundant pairings, and some appear to be oxymoronic, but not tautologies.

[Noclevername]

An otherwise beautiful song in one of the Silent Hill games, "Room of Angel", has the irritating lyric, "sleeping dormant".

Any others?

As someone who sleeps restlessly, I think it's actually a good distinction to make.


Hmmm, "high alert".

"But yet".

"Where are you at?" (more often said "where you at". :sick:)

"new classic". And some ads for movies/Tv shows call upcoming series the "next classic"... more overconfidence than tautology, really, but annoying all the same.

"Exciting thrill."

[Fazor]

Organic has several definitions, just like a lot of words. That's why dictionaries are usually so heavy.

Well, perhaps it doesn't bug people as much as it does me. The point is not that "organic fruit" can mean not altered, the point is the other fruit is also organic. I think if I was one of the non-special labled fruit vendors, I'd lable all my fruit "Organic" aswell...because, well, it is.

[Noclevername]

Well, perhaps it doesn't bug people as much as it does me. The point is not that "organic fruit" can mean not altered, the point is the other fruit is also organic. I think if I was one of the non-special labled fruit vendors, I'd lable all my fruit "Organic" aswell...because, well, it is.

It's also illegal, since the FDA follows its own defintion of "organic".

[mike alexander]

uptight perfectionist?

[ToSeek]

In the 1970s there was a Doctor Who story called "The Deadly Assassin". So what do non-deadly assassins do?

"Really Incompetent Assassin"?

[ToSeek]

"Past history." Is there any other kind (outside of science fiction)?

[Noclevername]

"Random chance", even though I've used that one myself.

"Positive compliments".

"Free gift".

[Paul Beardsley]

Ooh, just remembered the one that really annoys me: "Mass exodus."

When did it get coined? I remember a teacher using it in the early 1980s. Did someone think, "The departure of an entire people just isn't enough."

[Gillianren]

"But yet".

Agh! I hate that one! Blessedly, I don't think I've seen anyone around here actually use it; thanks to you all. (And, yes, I know that someone's going to use it now just to bother me. Thanks, guys.)

"new classic". And some ads for movies/Tv shows call upcoming series the "next classic"... more overconfidence than tautology, really, but annoying all the same.

There is no such thing as a new classic. In order to be a classic, people must have looked back on whatever-it-is fondly and with admiration for some time. Now, my standards are different based on what we're discussing--movies become classic faster than books, I think, because the technology is newer--but I get very snippy indeed if something is dubbed a classic before it's at least fifteen, and for preference twenty-five, years old. (And, of course, AMC plays bad movies that are too young to be classics--in short, movies that never will be classics.) It's easy to say that something will become a classic, but it's also easy to be wrong.

I am, however, an apologist for certain modifiers on "unique." Not "most unique," because that's ridiculous, but I can go for "almost unique," because sometimes, things are very, very close to being completely original except for one thing that's been done before. "Almost perfect" is a similar situation. Close, yes. Perfect, no.

[KaiYeves]

"The Mexican Gulf of Mexico" as my Geography teacher said today.

[SeanF]

There is no such thing as a new classic. In order to be a classic, people must have looked back on whatever-it-is fondly and with admiration for some time. Now, my standards are different based on what we're discussing--movies become classic faster than books, I think, because the technology is newer--but I get very snippy indeed if something is dubbed a classic before it's at least fifteen, and for preference twenty-five, years old.
So that means that if you were to compile a list of classics, you'd have to continously update the list with new entries, as works reached the appropriate age, right? So why wouldn't a work that was newly added to the list of classics be a "new classic"?

[KaiYeves]

There is no such thing as a new classic. In order to be a classic, people must have looked back on whatever-it-is fondly and with admiration for some time. Now, my standards are different based on what we're discussing--movies become classic faster than books, I think, because the technology is newer--but I get very snippy indeed if something is dubbed a classic before it's at least fifteen, and for preference twenty-five, years old.
Is "new milestone" apropriate?
As in "SpaceShipOne is a new milestone in the Air and Space Museum's gallery Milestones of Flight?"

[Paul Beardsley]

P.S. Love your newest avatar, Paul! :cool:
Thanks, DA! Unfortunately Kai Yeves doesn't.

I recall a schoolmate in chemistry lesson referring to "a three-legged tripod" but he was doing it deliberately.

There was a TV series on The Simpsons called Police Cops. Och-oh, spaghettios!

[Paul Beardsley]

Is "new milestone" apropriate?
As in "SpaceShipOne is a new milestone in the Air and Space Museum's gallery Milestones of Flight?"

I think so. It means we've reached a new stage, metaphorically a mile on from the last one.

[Spock Jenkins]

My favorite, which some disagree:

"Hot Water Heater".

Water heater is sufficient. Sometimes it's heating cold water when it enters the tank, sometimes it's keeping hot water hot. It's just a water heater.

I'm drawing a blank on another one. Every time I hear it I have to comment on it, but yet* I just can't remember what it is.

* Sorry, couldn't resist ;)

[sarongsong]

"The Mexican Gulf of Mexico" as my Geography teacher said today.Makes sense if the teacher was referring to an area that belongs to Mexico, vs. say, North American Gulf of Mexico (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&hs=HiH&q=%22american+gulf+of+mexico%22&btnG=Search) areas.

[geonuc]

Well, perhaps it doesn't bug people as much as it does me. The point is not that "organic fruit" can mean not altered, the point is the other fruit is also organic.
No, that is not the point. The meaning of organic as used at the grocery store is clear.

[Noclevername]

Is tautology the study of tightropes, trampolines and well-made beds? Or Tauntauns?

[sarongsong]

T'ao! :doh:

[astrotech]

"Formerly known as Prince"

Push button dialing

excesive violence

hilariously funny

depressingly sad

furiously angry

painfull agony

[Disinfo Agent]

T'ao! :doh:Taotology! Brilliant! :lol:

P.S. In mathematical logic, a tautology is actually a Good Thing. But nobody cares to know, right? ;)

[Ilya]

"Formerly known as Prince"

So? He used to be known as Prince, so this is an accurate description.

Push button dialing

This may be an oxymoron -- a dial is a wheel on an axis and you turn it, not push buttons, -- but it is certainly not a tautology.

excesive violence

There are situations where certain amount of violence is necessary -- sometimes quite a lot of it. Exceeding that amount is excessive violence. Nothing tautological about that.

hilariously funny

Some things are only funny in a mildly amusing way.

[Fazor]

So that means that if you were to compile a list of classics, you'd have to continously update the list with new entries, as works reached the appropriate age, right? So why wouldn't a work that was newly added to the list of classics be a "new classic"?

No, it would be newly classic, but not a new classic. :)

[SeanF]

No, it would be newly classic, but not a new classic. :)
:p Of course it would.

[KaiYeves]

Or Tauntauns?
:-D
"Insanely insane"

[toejam]

"Past history." Is there any other kind (outside of science fiction)?

Yes. In medicine. (unless you're like some posters on baut who consider medicine as Science Fiction :))

There is the History (of present condition/complaint) often styled HPC and then there is the Past History (of other conditions/complaints in the past, or present concurrently with the present condition, but of long standing), styled PH.

[toejam]

"The Mexican Gulf of Mexico" as my Geography teacher said today.

I feel picky-picky today.:)

Perhaps he meant that part of the Gulf of Mexico that is in fact in Mexican territorial waters?

[toejam]

Agh! I hate that one! Blessedly, I don't think I've seen anyone around here actually use it; thanks to you all. (And, yes, I know that someone's going to use it now just to bother me. Thanks, guys.)



There is no such thing as a new classic. In order to be a classic, people must have looked back on whatever-it-is fondly and with admiration for some time. Now, my standards are different based on what we're discussing--movies become classic faster than books, I think, because the technology is newer--but I get very snippy indeed if something is dubbed a classic before it's at least fifteen, and for preference twenty-five, years old. (And, of course, AMC plays bad movies that are too young to be classics--in short, movies that never will be classics.) It's easy to say that something will become a classic, but it's also easy to be wrong.

I am, however, an apologist for certain modifiers on "unique." Not "most unique," because that's ridiculous, but I can go for "almost unique," because sometimes, things are very, very close to being completely original except for one thing that's been done before. "Almost perfect" is a similar situation. Close, yes. Perfect, no.

BUT YET (you were SO right :)), I repeat, but yet, those qualifiers on perfect & unique annoy the living daylights out of some of us.

[Noclevername]

Perhaps he meant that part of the Golf of Mexico that is in fact in Mexican territorial waters?

Golf is usually played on land. ;)

[sarongsong]

..."Where are you at?" (more often said "where you at". :sick:)...Took awhile to realize that is what is meant when a Hawaiian asks, "Where you stay?"
(Got'ta love that pidgin English spoken in the islands!) :)

[Onlooker]

My favorite tautology is the one I like best.

[toejam]

Golf is usually played on land. ;)
:)
Now edited.

[sarongsong]

Golf is usually played on land. ;)...I get very snippy indeed if something is dubbed a classic before it's at least fifteen, and for preference twenty-five, years old...Tiger Woods is 32...and just the skippiest golfer!!! :)

[Jens]

My favorite tautology is the one I like best.

I won't even bother replying to such a meaningless piece of nonsense. :)

[Paul Beardsley]

My favorite tautology is the one I like best.

Nice one! (As is Jens' reply.) And a warm welcome to BAUT! (As opposed to a cold welcome.)

[closetgeek]

I used to work for a public Interest Research group (went door to door begging for money to support our causes). I spent a day pulling my hair out, trying to get this one girl to stop saying;

"...class A carcinogens that cause cancer."
Does 'absolutely perfect' count?
PIN number
VIN number

[Gillianren]

ATM machine? (No, not actually a tautology; just a redundancy. But we seem to have rather veered off topic, or perhaps a lot of people just don't know what a tautology is.)

[farmerjumperdon]

ATM machine? (No, not actually a tautology; just a redundancy. But we seem to have rather veered off topic, or perhaps a lot of people just don't know what a tautology is.)

I was going to say the same thing; and actually did a couple pages back. But so many of these do not fit my idea of tautology that I had to go look it up. According to Webster's it can just be a phrase with redundant terms.

I always thought it had to be a much more developed idea, like a story that supports itself with no outside corroboration. Most religious ideas would be a good example.

Apparently, I am wrong. Put that one on the calendar.

[ToSeek]

ATM machine? (No, not actually a tautology; just a redundancy. But we seem to have rather veered off topic, or perhaps a lot of people just don't know what a tautology is.)

New Scientist has a "Department of Redundancy Department" just for phrases like that.

[closetgeek]

ATM machine? (No, not actually a tautology; just a redundancy. But we seem to have rather veered off topic, or perhaps a lot of people just don't know what a tautology is.)

This is why I wondered if they would fit:

tautology


Date: 1574
1 a: needless repetition of an idea, statement, or word b: an instance of tautology

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/tautology

[peteshimmon]

Here we are, Astronomers discussing abstruse
grammar confusions! Get outside at night when
the Sun is below the horizon and it is dark.
See meteors falling to the ground. See Earth
satellites moving in their orbits around our
Planet. See stars shining down. Examine lunar
craters on the surface of the Moon. See our
whole Universe with your mince pies.


:)

[Paul Beardsley]

You are totally right, Pete. And as soon as I have my teaching course out of the way, I shall take your advice.

[HenrikOlsen]

But it's cold and cloudy and I don't have a radio telescope, so what else would you have me do?

Re. the ATM machine is there a word for using an abbreviation/acronym together with a word in the abbreviation?
ATM machine
IP protocol
TCP protocol

[Moose]

So what do non-deadly assassins do?

Hard time.

[KaiYeves]

So what do non-deadly assassins do?
Hard time.
Hahahahahahahahaha!
Reminds me of
"What would you do if there was a T-Rex behind you?"
"Sixty."

[Paul Beardsley]

But it's cold and cloudy and I don't have a radio telescope, so what else would you have me do?
Spend your time building yourself an RT telescope. (RT=Radio Telescope.) I recommend you begin by buying a radio telescope radio first.

Re. the ATM machine is there a word for using an abbreviation/acronym together with a word in the abbreviation?
Yay! You avoided referring to "ATM" as an acronym.

ATM machine
IP protocol
TCP protocol
Joking aside, this is quite an interesting point.

As most people probably know, AC and DC stand for Alternating Current and Direct Current.

When working with electronic circuits, it is quite a normal instruction to say, "Measure the DC voltage across resistor R1, and measure the AC current across resistor R2."

Saying, "Measure the direct voltage..." sounds unnatural; ditto "Measure the alternating current..." even though it is correct.

What do other people think?

[Jeff Root]

My favorite tautology is the one I like best.
OOoooooooo! Am I ever glad I came back to this thread!

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[fotobits]

Heavy downpour

RBIs as plural for Runs Batted In (I used to be a sportswriter and this one still bothers me)

Rio Grande River

Sierra Nevada Mountains

Yes, these are all redundancies, but I looked up tautology and it is a synonym for redundancy.

[Gillianren]

What do other people think?

That I don't know enough about electronics to answer? (I studied it in high school physics, but even if that weren't over a decade ago now, my physics class wasn't very useful at learning physics for several excellent reasons.)

[Noclevername]

The Wizard of Oz is my favorite Totology.

[Van Rijn]

Re. the ATM machine is there a word for using an abbreviation/acronym together with a word in the abbreviation?
ATM machine
IP protocol
TCP protocol

I don't think so, but the question was interesting enough that I did a little research, and I did find this term to describe the issue: RAS syndrome, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAS_syndrome) which stands for "Redundant Acronym Syndrome syndrome." :)

[KaiYeves]

"The NASA Administration".

[Matherly]

The Wizard of Oz is my favorite Totology.

:wall:

[Moose]

The Wizard of Oz is my favorite Totology.

Oh, groan. :lol:

[mike alexander]

Pizza pie, of course.

And totology is the German study of death, not Oz. Zo?

Is the opposite of tautology slackology?

[peteshimmon]

Fascinating, many of the posted posts here!

er..

Fascinating, many of the posts, posted here!

also

Are doughnuts tasty topology?

[mike alexander]

Ah. Are a doughnut and a coffe cup a topological tautology?

[mike alexander]

And I wonder what a coffe cup is.

[peteshimmon]

Well a topical treat after searching for the
missing Eeee... (and lay off the edit or I
look foolish!)

[speedfreek]

She gave birth to a beautiful baby girl.

[Paul Beardsley]

She gave birth to a beautiful baby girl.

That's not a tautology. Only the other day my cousin gave birth to an adult...

Er...

Move along - the original poster is being silly!

[mike alexander]

Silly Englishman

[peteshimmon]

Ah! Oxymorons! A very silly sounding word
for contradiction in terms:)

[Paul Beardsley]

Silly Englishman

Touche!

(Why don't we silly Englishmen just say "touched"? Or "it has a certain 'I don't know what'"? Or "good apetite"? Or "good voyage"? Or "I would like to sleep with you this evening"?)

[mike alexander]

Many Americans would pronounce that 'Toosh'. Not to be confused with 'tush', which can be a bummer. So to speak.

[Neverfly]

Many Americans would pronounce that 'Toosh'. Not to be confused with 'tush', which can be a bummer. So to speak.

As an American, I'm not happy about being the butt of your joke.

[peteshimmon]

tsk tsk! Getting crude! Sounds like Paul may
have decoded the 50 year old shopping list
from Hayling beach at last. But it was a
secret summons to a ringer for the beers and
skittles tournament at the time:)

[mike alexander]

But, but...

Malmsey were the Borogoves?

[mike alexander]

But it was a secret summons to a ringer for the beers and
skittles tournament at the time

That sounds right. Nothing better than a bag of skittles to go with a pint.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6385/skittlesky2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[sarongsong]

...not Oz. Zo?...? Why isn't [i]palindrome spelled the same backward and forward?

[mike alexander]

Have gun, will travel either way.

Wire Palindrome, San Francisco.




A Man,
A Plan,
A Canal:
Suez.

[TrAI]

My favorite, which some disagree:

"Hot Water Heater".

Water heater is sufficient. Sometimes it's heating cold water when it enters the tank, sometimes it's keeping hot water hot. It's just a water heater.

I'm drawing a blank on another one. Every time I hear it I have to comment on it, but yet* I just can't remember what it is.

* Sorry, couldn't resist ;)

Well, "water heater" can be quite a few different appliances, you know... anyway, I have a feeling that it is not "hot (water heater)" but "(hot water) heater", that is, a heater for the hot water system in a building.
:)

hmmm...

By the way, is there a special name for redundancies caused by using borrowed words, like "tsunami wave", "tepanyaki griddle", "bremsstrahlung radiation", "Knackwurst sausage" and so on...

[sarongsong]

Have gun, will travel either way.
Wire Palindrome, San Francisco...Hee-hee; I think of that old chestnut sometimes as I read the morning paper at the counter of my local breakfast spot (even tho it's not The Chronicle (http://www.sfgate.com/)). :)

[mike alexander]

I was a great Richard Boone fan.

The Eye of an Eagle.
The Heart of a Lion.
The Hand of a Woman.

[Gillianren]

Oh, groan. :lol:

You're just mad that you didn't think of it first!

[mike alexander]

I am a lifelong fan of 'Have Gun, Will Travel'. Like 'The Twilight Zone', one of those TV programs that popped up like a rose out of the morass of Father Knowing Best or Bonanza. Imagine a mercenary gunman (with a moustache!) on American TV in 1957.

'Have Gun, Will Travel' reads the card of a man.
A knight without armor in a savage land.
His fast gun for hire heads the calling wind.
A soldier of fortune is the man called...
Paladin.

[Paul Beardsley]

tsk tsk! Getting crude! Sounds like Paul may
have decoded the 50 year old shopping list
from Hayling beach at last. But it was a
secret summons to a ringer for the beers and
skittles tournament at the time:)

It was a surprise twist to get an enlightening revelation!

I had an idea just now of an English teacher getting sacked for some stupidly unfair reason. So as she serves out her notice, she takes revenge on the school by teaching the students bogus stuff.

Teacher: "Pete just said 'shopping list'. Now why shouldn't he have said that?"

Chorus of hands goes up. Teacher selects one.

Student: "Because it's a tautology, Miss."

Teacher: "That's right. It's a tautology. Have a lollipop."

Student: "Cor, thanks, Miss!"

Teacher: "Now, one of the things you need to know for your exam..."

Skeptical student: "Miss!"

Teacher: "What is it, Timothy?"

Skeptical student: "It's Samuel, actually."

Teacher: "Whatever."

Skeptical student: "But surely 'shopping list' isn't a tautology. I mean, you can have a shopping trolley, or a guest list. They're independent words!"

Teacher: "Timothy, leave my classroom now."

Skeptical student: "Oh, what?"

Teacher: "Go straight to the Principal. We do not look kindly at racism in this college."

Skeptical student: "Racism?"

Teacher: "Yes, racism. Ahmed was very upset by your remarks."

Ahmed: "Huh?"

Teacher: "Lollipop?"

Ahmed: "Oh right! Yeah, you offended me deeply just now, Timothy!"

Skeptical student: "It's not Timothy, it's Samual!"

Ahmed: "Whatever."

(Since the making of this documentary, the results for the English examinations for this college were the third lowest in the country.

The teacher was offered her old job back at greater pay.

Ahmed was injured by running with a lollipop in his mouth. He has since made a full recovery.)

[Moose]

You're just mad that you didn't think of it first!

I wasn't mad at all, but yeah, absolutely!

I've never been big on rapid-firing puns, although I have several friends who do this well. My preference has always been for the single, almost lethal pun.

The really potent ones in college would make yet another friend of mine get up and walk away some distance before recovering/returning. When punning in the college cafeteria, the standard was how many tables one could make "Paul" walk. My personal best was when I handed Paul a salt shaker and a spent AAA-cell I happened to have in my pocket. I shook my head sadly as I dropped what should have been obvious (but somehow wasn't to him): "Salt and a battery (assault and battery.)" That one was good for 6 full tables and change.

[Noclevername]

Is the opposite of tautology slackology?

Yes, that was my major in college. I still practice it regularly.

[sarongsong]

...Imagine a mercenary gunman (with a moustache!) on American TV in 1957......and with that sweet little innocent baby-face (http://us.imdb.com/gallery/mptv/1307/Mptv/1307/9268_0009.jpg.html?hint=tt0050025) to boot!!! :)
ooh---and how about that Peter Gunn (different show) theme music?

[Noclevername]

I wasn't mad at all, but yeah, absolutely!

I've never been big on rapid-firing puns, although I have several friends who do this well. My preference has always been for the single, almost lethal pun.

The really potent ones in college would make yet another friend of mine get up and walk away some distance before recovering/returning. When punning in the college cafeteria, the standard was how many tables one could make "Paul" walk. My personal best was when I handed Paul a salt shaker and a spent AAA-cell I happened to have in my pocket. I shook my head sadly as I dropped what should have been obvious (but somehow wasn't to him): "Salt and a battery (assault and battery.)" That one was good for 6 full tables and change.

I guess he learned a valuable lesson from your taughtology.

[worzel]

Little Bo Peep has lost her sheep,
And doesn't know where to find them.

[mike alexander]

Peter Gunn. That great Mancini theme.

[Lo'ihi]

-forever and a day
-child prodigy
-world wide
-chancy bet
-vast expanse
-minute details
-super star

[geonuc]

Sorry, Lo'ihi, most of those are not tautologies. Maybe only one of them is (child prodigy), although that too is debatable, depending on how you define prodigy.

[Moose]

Sorry, Lo'ihi, most of those are not tautologies. Maybe only one of them is (child prodigy), although that too is debatable, depending on how you define prodigy.

I disagree. Most of those are. The only one I'd dispute is, oddly enough, child prodigy.

[KLIK]

retreated backwards (although pedants could argue about walking backwards).
advanced forwards

[Paul Beardsley]

I disagree. Most of those are. The only one I'd dispute is, oddly enough, child prodigy.

Well "world wide" is clearly not a tautology. Something can be country wide but not world wide. It can be world class without being available world wide.

Not all children are prodigies, and not all prodigies are children, so "child prodigy" is not a tautology.

"Minute details" - I don't think so. "Minute" is a qualifier here. If you had a supercomputer consisting of many circuit boards, then information about individual circuit boards could count as details; information about individual components on each circuit board could count as minute details.

"Super star" - again, the first word is a qualifier. A quite well known celebrity is a star; a household name who draws crowds is a superstar, usually written as one word.

I don't think I've ever heard the term "chancy bet" but again it's a qualifier. You can bet on certainties - the trick being to find someone who doesn't think something is a certainty. So if you say, "I bet the next three dice throws will come up six, four, two," then that is a chancy bet, whereas, "I bet the next three dice throws will add up to less than nineteen" is a sure thing! (Unless you're using D20s from a Dungeons and Dragons game...)

[SeanF]

"Forever and a day" isn't a tautology, either. You could call it an oxymoron, I suppose, but it's really an intentional incongruity for the purpose of emphasis.

[Paul Beardsley]

"Forever and a day" isn't a tautology, either. You could call it an oxymoron, I suppose, but it's really an intentional incongruity for the purpose of emphasis.

Yes, it's like saying, "I've given 110% to this team..." Which is supposed to have connotations of going the extra mile, but to my mind just sounds as if the speaker doesn't understand what a percentage is. Plus, if you can give more than 100%, why stop at 110?

[Moose]

Well "world wide" is clearly not a tautology. Something can be country wide but not world wide. It can be world class without being available world wide.

Agreed.

Not all children are prodigies, and not all prodigies are children, so "child prodigy" is not a tautology.

Agreed.

"Minute details" - I don't think so. "Minute" is a qualifier here. If you had a supercomputer consisting of many circuit boards, then information about individual circuit boards could count as details; information about individual components on each circuit board could count as minute details.

I'd agree it's not a tautology on all possible definitions you could attach to the term.

But the opposite of "minute detail", "gross details", is somewhat contradictory. If it's gross enough to comment on, it's not a detail, it's a summary or overview.

By that token, details are necessarily going to be fine. The qualifier remains a tautology, but one with some redeeming value.

"Super star" - again, the first word is a qualifier. A quite well known celebrity is a star; a household name who draws crowds is a superstar, usually written as one word.

Agreed.

I don't think I've ever heard the term "chancy bet" but again it's a qualifier. You can bet on certainties - the trick being to find someone who doesn't think something is a certainty. So if you say, "I bet the next three dice throws will come up six, four, two," then that is a chancy bet, whereas, "I bet the next three dice throws will add up to less than nineteen" is a sure thing! (Unless you're using D20s from a Dungeons and Dragons game...)

A certain wager is not a bet, it's a con.

Otherwise, I'd argue it is still a tautology, but like minute detail, the qualifier isn't completely worthless.

If it is valid to qualify things like details and chance, we can qualify certain classic tautologies with the term "blatant". :)

[Moose]

Yes, it's like saying, "I've given 110% to this team..." Which is supposed to have connotations of going the extra mile, but to my mind just sounds as if the speaker doesn't understand what a percentage is. Plus, if you can give more than 100%, why stop at 110?

Was it a Simpsons episode where some team was brainwashed and the reply to the command to "give 110%" was "That's... impossible... By definition... 100%... is the most... one can... give..."

[NEOWatcher]

Yes, it's like saying, "I've given 110% to this team..." Which is supposed to have connotations of going the extra mile, but to my mind just sounds as if the speaker doesn't understand what a percentage is. Plus, if you can give more than 100%, why stop at 110?
I have mixed feelings on that one, because there is the implied "usual effort" as 100% that I apply to the statement to make sense of it.

It does remind me of the Monk episode where he coached Julie's basketball team. Somebody was told to give over 100% so he started assigning other percentages to the rest of the team (somebody was assigned to give 75%), so the effort of the team adds up to 100%.

[Paul Beardsley]

But the opposite of "minute detail", "gross details", is somewhat contradictory. If it's gross enough to comment on, it's not a detail, it's a summary or overview.

By that token, details are necessarily going to be fine.
The opposite to fine is coarse. You can have coarse details. But the point is, if you can use different qualifiers to change the meaning, then it's not a tautology. The qualifiers don't have to be opposites.

The qualifier remains a tautology, but one with some redeeming value.
If the qualifier has a value, then it's not redundant, therefore there is no tautology.

A certain wager is not a bet, it's a con.
Even if it was a con, that wouldn't stop it being a bet. If a champion weightlifter bets a nine stone weakling £20 that he can lift a heavier object, the nine stone weakling has the option of not taking the bet.

Otherwise, I'd argue it is still a tautology, but like minute detail, the qualifier isn't completely worthless.
Which again prevents it from being a tautology.

If it is valid to qualify things like details and chance, we can qualify certain classic tautologies with the term "blatant". :)
How can it not be valid to qualify things like details and chance?

Was it a Simpsons episode where some team was brainwashed and the reply to the command to "give 110%" was "That's... impossible... By definition... 100%... is the most... one can... give..."

Yes it was, and it please me no end.

[Moose]

Even if it was a con, that wouldn't stop it being a bet. If a champion weightlifter bets a nine stone weakling £20 that he can lift a heavier object, the nine stone weakling has the option of not taking the bet.

Nitpick: If you're a nine-stone weakling, and a walking bicep walks over and tells you you're betting him £20 he can out lift you... you planning on refusing? :doh:

[Paul Beardsley]

Nitpick: If you're a nine-stone weakling, and a walking bicep walks over and tells you you're betting him £20 he can out lift you... you planning on refusing? :doh:
Yes, I would refuse, if:

He was clearly a civilised gent who was not threatening me.
or
I had a gun and he didn't.

If he was using his strength in a "take the bet or else..." sort of way, then that would clearly not count as a "con".

[geonuc]

I disagree. Most of those are. The only one I'd dispute is, oddly enough, child prodigy.
Based on your later posts, seems you've come around on some of these.

Paul Beardsley has elucidated the reasons why I objected to these as tautologies, so I need not elaborate.

People sometimes confuse 'tautology' with 'annoying cliche'.

[Fazor]

Was it a Simpsons episode where some team was brainwashed and the reply to the command to "give 110%" was "That's... impossible... By definition... 100%... is the most... one can... give..."

Yes, that was the softball episode (Homer at the Bat)...one of the greats.

"Mattingly! I said cutt those sideburns! I've had enough of your insolence, you're off the team!!!" [Mattingly's hair is shaved so high on both sides it's like he has a mohawk. Mattingly shrugs as he walks away]
"I still like him better than Steinbrenner"

[Moose]

Based on your later posts, seems you've come around on some of these.

Not so much. It was a combination of the list being on the previous page (based on the number of posts per page I'm using), considerable distraction (busy week at work) and hunger.

My from-memory count was simply off when I didn't alter "most".

[Moose]

He was clearly a civilised gent who was not threatening me.

Civilized folks don't feel the need to make bets with people who aren't in any way suited to compete.

[sarongsong]

...If you're a nine-stone weakling, and a walking bicep walks over and tells you you're betting him £20 he can out lift you...A TV show similar to "Ripley's Believe It or Not" once featured a petite lass who demonstrated that a walkng bicep could not lift her off the ground. As he grasped her waist with both hands to do so, she 'rested' her hands on his wrists while pressing her thumbs in a certain manner that prevented him from raising his arms further.

[Moose]

There's not enough info present in that description to locate other mentions online, and my own resources don't mention this feat (except once in a work of fiction), but offhand I'd relegate that into the same class of claims that includes Pat Robertson's 2,000lb leg press and Uri Gellar's spoonbending:

It'll turn out to have been some sort of deliberate illusion. One that million-year-old James Randi is capable of safely performing if he felt like it. And one that conveniently cannot be repeated under proper testing conditions for the usual variety of excuses.

[peteshimmon]

Vast expense
High cost
Excessive price

All tautologies! Well to some groups of
people anyway.

[mike alexander]

Any superlative with ranking modifier?

Absolute worst

(Not to be mistaken for the famous German/Swedish fusion dish, Absolut wurst)

Very best

[Noclevername]

Very best

Not really, it just means the same as "best of the best"-- the best subset of the set "best".

[geonuc]

Vast expense
High cost
Excessive price

All tautologies! Well to some groups of
people anyway.

No. Yes (obviously).

[NEOWatcher]

Off-topic babbling.

[mike alexander]

OK, then, how about absolutely perfect?

Remember, DON'T remove that birthmark!

[Gillianren]

Off-topic babbling.

Hey, I for one can babble a lot on topic.

[sarongsong]

...I for one...Perfect! :)

[peteshimmon]

Oh dear!

Man, that is born of Woman,
has but a short time...

[mike alexander]

Once you get into poetic alliteration, all bets are off. I see one (not all) of the basic functions of poetry being to get your mind off its butt and look at the ordinary in a new way.

[sarongsong]

Hmmh...what grammatical form of speech might this sentence represent?February 8, 2008
..."Just because the shuttle program is not paying for somebody to work doesn't mean that NASA is not paying somebody to work."...
Florida Space rePort (http://spacereport.blogspot.com/)

[KaiYeves]

It may not be a tautology, but "Made in Europe by the ESA" is what I would consider overkill.

[Noclevername]

Oh dear!

Man, that is born of Woman,
has but a short time...

How about Man that was C-sectioned of Woman? :doh:

[KaiYeves]

How about Man that was C-sectioned of Woman?
He 'tis the only one that can kill Macbeth!

[mike alexander]

"From his mother's womb untimely plucked..."

Much as I love Shakespeare, I always thought that was among the worst and weakest plot devices ever sprung.

[Gillianren]

"From his mother's womb untimely plucked..."

Much as I love Shakespeare, I always thought that was among the worst and weakest plot devices ever sprung.

You can always tell a true lover of Shakespeare; they're willing to admit that, sometimes, he wasn't very good. The language is seldom not very good, but some of the stories . . . .

[geonuc]

It may not be a tautology, ...

No problem! Few submissions so far have been legitimate tautologies. :)

[Zachary]

There's been this cosmetics advert running for a while which says, "We asked real women about <blahblahblah."

real women? As opposed to fake women? 0.o, whenever that ad comes on I get this mental image of a reporter sticking a mic infront of a cardboard cutout and asking questions...

[TrAI]

There's been this cosmetics advert running for a while which says, "We asked real women about <blahblahblah."

real women? As opposed to fake women? 0.o, whenever that ad comes on I get this mental image of a reporter sticking a mic infront of a cardboard cutout and asking questions...

Well, they may have ment they went out and asked women instead of just asking the local crossdresser or MtF?

Of course, that could be called discrimination...

[peteshimmon]

The person under the table had clearly
imbibed too much liquor.

[Noclevername]

The person under the table had clearly
imbibed too much liquor.

Not really a tautology, unless you assume that's the only possible reason to be under a table.

[mike alexander]

Not really a tautology, unless you assume that's the only possible reason to be under a table.

I remember that cartoon. The caption was :It's all right; we're married."

[Paul Beardsley]

There's been this cosmetics advert running for a while which says, "We asked real women about <blahblahblah."

real women? As opposed to fake women? 0.o, whenever that ad comes on I get this mental image of a reporter sticking a mic infront of a cardboard cutout and asking questions...

Actually I like the anti-fascist anti-misogynist aspect of the statement - "We asked some women who don't conform to a very narrow view of what women should be like."

[Noclevername]

Actually I like the anti-fascist anti-misogynist aspect of the statement - "We asked some women who don't conform to a very narrow view of what women should be like."

So hot women aren't "real women"? Reverse discrimination! Reverse discrimination! :D

[davidlpf]

To bring the organic thing up again there is organic chemistry which in general is the chemistry of molecules that contain carbon, and sometimes it has nothing to do anyhting living.(just read the thread now.)

[Paul Beardsley]

So hot women aren't "real women"? Reverse discrimination! Reverse discrimination! :D

Is there an icon for thumbing one's nose?

But yes, fair point.

Seeing as how your reprimand was clearly jocular, I shall end this post with a sequence from The Simpsons, as Principal Skinner begins “the first of many, many, many, many diversity forums. Why is it that women ‘appear’ to be worse at math than men? What is the source of this ‘illusion’ or as I call it, the biggest lie ever told?”

Ms Krabappel in forum audience: “Are you saying that men and women are identical?”

Skinner: “D’oh! No of course not! Women are unique in every way!”

Lindsey Naegle in audience: “Now he’s saying women and men aren’t equal!”

Skinner: “No no no! It’s the differences (of which there are none) that make the sameness exceptional. [Desperate.] Just tell me what to say!”

[peteshimmon]

Here are some redundancies from an old
English textbook I used at school. (from
a charity shop to remind me of the horror!)

The pupils were assembled together in the hall.

He went out through the exit.

There is a crown of trees on the hill.

He eyed him with a look of contempt.

I have modified one to see if it is still a
redundancy. Someone should explain exactly
what a tautology is as I think some very
simple mathematical equations are described
as such.

[Gillianren]

He went out through the exit.

Why is this a redundancy? It is assuredly possible to both go out through an entrance and in through an exit. You're not supposed to, but you can.

There is a crown of trees on the hill.

I don't get why this one is a redundancy, either.

[Neverfly]

There is a crown of trees on the hill.
I don't get why this one is a redundancy, either.

Can't have a crown in a valley.:think:

[Noclevername]

Can't have a crown in a valley.:think:

No, but you can have it on things other than hills. Mountains, cliff edges, islands, buttes, ridges, escarpments, all kinds of land formations.

[Fadingstar]

Not true tautology but-

Exquisite pain - don't think these words should be together in any sentence!

And two from the washing powder adverts - whiter than white, or, New and Improved

Possible tautology -

Our technology advanced in leaps and bounds

He stumbled and tripped over the rock

It was a dark night

The evidence was conclusive proof

They used a secret code

[Noclevername]

Our technology advanced in leaps and bounds

That one is just repetetive. The rest are not tautologies because:
He stumbled and tripped over the rock
You can stumble without tripping, although you can't trip wthout stumbling-- unless you just fall down.
It was a dark night
There are moonlit nights.
The evidence was conclusive proof

Evidence is the data. Proof is what it does.
They used a secret code
Morse code is not secret.

[Gillianren]

Not to mention that a thing can be new and the same--or new and worsened!

[Jens]

Evidence is the data. Proof is what it does.


"The evidence was conclusive proof" is redundant not because of evidence/proof, but because there is no such thing as "inconclusive proof". Proof by definition is conclusive.

[Noclevername]

"The evidence was conclusive proof" is redundant not because of evidence/proof, but because there is no such thing as "inconclusive proof". Proof by definition is conclusive.

Depends on who's accepting something as proof, and what standards they judge it by. Sometimes conclusions of proof can be overturned by a better proof.

[Neverfly]

I agree with Jens.

But almost every entry folks are making here gets a "That's not really a tautology" response.
I have looked up tautology three times at this point:doh:

Yall folks must be a usin' a strict definition.

[Paul Beardsley]

Why is this a redundancy? It is assuredly possible to both go out through an entrance and in through an exit. You're not supposed to, but you can.
Led Zeppelin even based an album title on the idea.

I did read a book that referred to "a small copse of trees."

[geonuc]

I agree with Jens.

But almost every entry folks are making here gets a "That's not really a tautology" response.
I have looked up tautology three times at this point:doh:

Yall folks must be a usin' a strict definition.
And I agree with both things you say here. Jens is right: conclusive proof is a tautology. Proofs 'conclude' an argument.

Maybe others should do as you have done - look up the definition of tautology. Also look up oxymoron and cliche, as those describe what some are proposed as tautologies.

[Jens]

Maybe others should do as you have done - look up the definition of tautology. Also look up oxymoron and cliche, as those describe what some are proposed as tautologies.

For me, one slight confusion is that there are two definitions of tautology that might apply. One is "needless repetition", like the example of "conclusive proof". The example given in my Random House dictionary is "widow woman".

The other one, which I tend to think of first, is a statement which must be true by definition. The example from the dictionary is "the candidate will either win or not win the election." (assuming there can be no tie, of course). I think something like "the man whose funeral was held was dead" is normally tautological, because we don't hold funerals for living people (unless the person was actually alive but believed to be dead). But certainly sentences like "my elder brother is older than I am" or "my sister is a girl" are tautological.

[Paul Beardsley]

Your sister could be a woman rather than a girl.

In The Prince, Macchiavelli uses statements that would fall under the second definition of tautology, but which clearly are not. He says things like, "A state is either a principality or a republic. A principality is acquired by right of birth, or it is not..."

Far from being tautological statements, these clearly categorise what he is talking about.

[Jens]

Your sister could be a woman rather than a girl.

Yes. I should have said "My sister is female."

In The Prince, Macchiavelli uses statements that would fall under the second definition of tautology, but which clearly are not. He says things like, "A state is either a principality or a republic. A principality is acquired by right of birth, or it is not..."

Far from being tautological statements, these clearly categorise what he is talking about.

I think they are still tautological. What you are saying (and I agree) is, tautological statements are not always useless. There are legitimate uses for them. Saying "you win some and you lose some" may be tautological, but it is used to make a point. It really means "don't get discouraged, you may win next time."

[Paul Beardsley]

I think they are still tautological. What you are saying (and I agree) is, tautological statements are not always useless. There are legitimate uses for them. Saying "you win some and you lose some" may be tautological, but it is used to make a point. It really means "don't get discouraged, you may win next time."
They are not tautological because there is no redundancy.

Take the statement, "Football is a game of two halves." Tautological? No, because if you don't know anything about football, you don't know if there's a halftime break, or two shorter breaks at thirty and sixty minutes.

"A state is either a principality or a republic." Not a tautology at all. Macchiavelli is saying, "As far as my thesis is concerned, there are these two types of state and no other."

"A principality is acquired by right of birth, or it is not..." Maybe that looks like a tautology, but it isn't. It is a self-evident truth, like, "All balloons are red or some other colour," but it's more than that - we understand it to mean, "There is an important distinction between principalities that are acquired by birth and those that are not." So again, no redundancy.

[geonuc]

The Oxford American Dictionary gives the following as an example of a tautology:

"they arrived one after another in succession"

[Neverfly]

The Oxford American Dictionary gives the following as an example of a tautology:

"they arrived one after another in succession"

Ok, then many of the examples given by members that were said to not be tautologies are tautologies then.

That's just a redundancy.

[peteshimmon]

The line I modified stated "a crown of trees on
top of the hill" Still seems redundant, I
might say the hill had a crown of trees.
Incidentally the preamble to these exercises
had a sentence "Americans are especially fond
of slipping in redundant prepositions". Written
in 1948. So we young Britishers were being fed
stereotypes back then:)

One I should have included;

He repeated it again.

Is that three or four times?

I should come clean about an earlier post. I
thought someone might catch it having shown up
our wonderful gold standard awhile back. So I
had fun with the Man born of Woman thing. But
Mike seemed to get snippy about going for
poetic lines. And I am not sure of the gender
without going to previous posts anyway. So I
kept quiet. Got that off my mind. And always
wanted to use that snippy term!

[Gillianren]

The line I modified stated "a crown of trees on top of the hill" Still seems redundant, I might say the hill had a crown of trees.

What, you've never heard of a crown slipping to one side? (Or falling down the head entirely, as in the Disney animated Robin Hood!)

He repeated it again.

Is that three or four times?

It can be dozens. I can point you to relevant threads from this very board, if you like.

[sarongsong]

...I had fun with the Man born of Woman thing...going for poetic lines...Reminded me of Whitman's:...Unfolded out of the folds of the woman man comes unfolded...

[Jens]

"A state is either a principality or a republic." Not a tautology at all. Macchiavelli is saying, "As far as my thesis is concerned, there are these two types of state and no other."

Yes, you're absolutely right there. I should have been more careful in responding, because I was really discussing the following example:


"A principality is acquired by right of birth, or it is not..." Maybe that looks like a tautology, but it isn't. It is a self-evident truth, like, "All balloons are red or some other colour," but it's more than that - we understand it to mean, "There is an important distinction between principalities that are acquired by birth and those that are not." So again, no redundancy.

I'm not sure, but I think grammatically it is a tautology. But I see what you mean. I think he is really saying, as you point out, "when looking at a state, it is important to consider whether they are acquired by right of birth or not." I would still be inclined to say that technically it is tautologial (a computer would see it that way) but that we should interpret its real meaning, which is not tautological.

How about the joke, "There are two kinds of people in the world, those who divide people into two kinds and those who don't"?

[Jens]

Ok, then many of the examples given by members that were said to not be tautologies are tautologies then.

That's just a redundancy.

Well sure, but as I wrote earlier, in the dictionary that I consulted, one of the definitions of tautology is "a statement that is redundant" or something to that effect. Obviously you have a right to your own opinion about it, but it becomes a quibble over definitions. I think the point of the OP was to discuss funny redundant statements, whether you want to define them as "tautologies" or not.

[Neverfly]

Obviously you have a right to your own opinion about it, but it becomes a quibble over definitions. I think the point of the OP was to discuss funny redundant statements, whether you want to define them as "tautologies" or not.

Uhhh... Yeah. That's what I was trying to say:neutral:

[HenrikOlsen]

How about the joke, "There are two kinds of people in the world, those who divide people into two kinds and those who don't"?
That one's just ripe to spawn twisted offspring such as "There are 3 kinds of people in this world, whose who can count and those who can't." and "There are 10 kinds of people in this world, whose who understand binary and those who don't." and "There is only one kind of people in this world, those who divide people into two kinds.".

[Jens]

BTW, here's a real one I just came across in a paper I was translating.

"I was unexpectedly surprised..." :-)

[Paul Beardsley]

I'm not sure, but I think grammatically it is a tautology. But I see what you mean. I think he is really saying, as you point out, "when looking at a state, it is important to consider whether they are acquired by right of birth or not." I would still be inclined to say that technically it is tautologial (a computer would see it that way) but that we should interpret its real meaning, which is not tautological.
I think it is meaning, not grammar, that makes a statement a tautology. I'm not sure, though. I shall look into it.

How about the joke, "There are two kinds of people in the world, those who divide people into two kinds and those who don't"?
That's an example of recursion.

"I was unexpectedly surprised..." :-)
I'm not sure if even this counts.

If you read certain detective novels (probably not Agatha Christie!*), then, if you are like me, you will probably try to work out whodunnit as you are reading. If the author is any good, you will not guess, and in fact you will be surprised.

So, once you've decided you like this author's series of detective stories, you will settle down in your lounge and start reading another. Then, just as the detective unmasks the villain, the lounge ceiling collapses.

You are expectedly surprised by the discovery that the butler's twin brother committed the murder, and unexpectedly surprised by the appearance of the cache of gold sovereigns that had been hidden under the floorboards in the room above the lounge.

[Did anybody see what I did in that last sentence?]


*If it is firmly established that a particular character was definitely in Australia or intensive care or performing Hamlet on stage in front of a large audience at the time of the murder, then you can be sure that he was the one who did it!

[geonuc]

Ok, then many of the examples given by members that were said to not be tautologies are tautologies then.

That's just a redundancy.

But redundancy is a component of a tautology (a big component). My understanding is that when the redundancy is unintentional (as the example I quoted from the OAD), then it becomes more of a tautology. Redundancy for effect is not.

[Gillianren]

If you read certain detective novels (probably not Agatha Christie!*), then, if you are like me, you will probably try to work out whodunnit as you are reading. If the author is any good, you will not guess, and in fact you will be surprised.

There's a line in Strong Poison, by Dorothy L. Sayers, to the effect that Harriet Vane must be quite clever, because the Duchess hadn't figured out who committed the murder in one of Harriet's books until fairly near the end, and she normally does it right away. (Actually, when I figured out the solution in Have His Carcase before it was given away, I was pretty excited; I'm normally not very good at that sort of thing.) It's funny, too, because the Duchess doesn't strike me as being very clever herself.

[KaiYeves]

"Sahara desert" is a tautology, as "Sahara" means "desert", so you're saying "desert desert".

[Paul Beardsley]

"Sahara desert" is a tautology, as "Sahara" means "desert", so you're saying "desert desert".

A bit like "Galapagos tortoise" then?

[KaiYeves]

Yes, and "nene geese". "nene" is Hawai'ian for "geese".

[HenrikOlsen]

I just have to bring out the admittedly apocryphal Torpenhow hill. Hillhillhill hill.

[Noclevername]

"Sahara desert" is a tautology, as "Sahara" means "desert", so you're saying "desert desert".

A bit like "Galapagos tortoise" then?

Yes, and "nene geese". "nene" is Hawai'ian for "geese".

None of them are tautologies, as the desert is named Desert, the tortoises do come from islands called Galapagos, and the type of goose are actually named Nene. Two synonyms each, but no tautology.

[Noclevername]

How about "near-infinite" as a real tautology?

Is it or isn't it? Or maybe I have the wrong type of misstatement in mind.

[Paul Beardsley]

How about "near-infinite" as a real tautology?

That reminds me, many years ago a friend of mine (and briefly a BAUTer) was showing off a DX7 synthesizer to me and my girlfriend at the time. He declared, "This instrument can generate ten to the thirty seven sounds - that's halfway to infinity!" Despite having a grounding in the arts, my then girlfriend was not fooled.

[peteshimmon]

Take your time while procrastinating.

Dawdle and do not hurry.

Consider decisions carefully while dithering.

Thats a whole lifestyle as lived:)

[Noclevername]

Consider decisions carefully while dithering.

I'd say not this one. Dithering just means being indecisive, not that you're considering carefully, or even considering at all.

[geonuc]

How about "near-infinite" as a real tautology?

Is it or isn't it? Or maybe I have the wrong type of misstatement in mind.

Nah. It's analogous to "almost everything". Although the concept of approaching infinity is tricky, it isn't a tautology.

[Noclevername]

It's analogous to "almost everything".

Not really. "Everything" can be a fixed amount which it's possible to be near, depending on usage. Infinity can't.

[TrAI]

I'd say not this one. Dithering just means being indecisive, not that you're considering carefully, or even considering at all.

I would think that the redundancy in that sentence is supposed to be "consider" and "carefully", as to consider means to think seriously and carefully through something...

How about "near-infinite" as a real tautology?

Is it or isn't it? Or maybe I have the wrong type of misstatement in mind.

Thats not even a pleonasm, the "near" does not mean the same as "infinite"... A redundant statement would be, for example "It's infinite, unending and goes on for ever".

[geonuc]

Not really. "Everything" can be a fixed amount which it's possible to be near, depending on usage. Infinity can't.

I said it was analogous, not the same. And did you read the rest of my post, where I mention the concept of approaching infinity?

[Noclevername]

I said it was analogous, not the same. And did you read the rest of my post, where I mention the concept of approaching infinity?

Yes, and ignored it as it it's not true. Infinity, by definition, is unapproachable.

And for something to be analagous, it has to have some similarity, infinity has no similarity with an amount. One has no limit, it goes on forever, the other is limited and stops at some point.

[Paul Beardsley]

Approaching infinity is used in mathematics - in calculus, for instance.

[Noclevername]

Approaching infinity is used in mathematics - in calculus, for instance.

Yes, and negative numbers are also used, doesn't make them real. Have you ever seen negative-one of something? Or counted an infinity of somethign?

Mathematics is a form of logic-- it produces consistent garbage just as easily as it does true statements.

[Paul Beardsley]

Yes, and negative numbers are also used, doesn't make them real.
I'm not sure of your point. Something can be a tautology (or non-tautology) whether it's real or not

Have you ever seen negative-one of something?
An overdrawn bank account. The temperature on a cold day.

I'm not trying to be funny or awkward here - people do say things like, "Minus one degree below freezing."

Or counted an infinity of somethign?
Not exactly, but I've seen opticians and photographers place things at infinity. They adjust their camera lenses to be close to infinity.

[Noclevername]

I'm not sure of your point. Something can be a tautology (or non-tautology) whether it's real or not[
No, I was talking about what you said about infinity.

An overdrawn bank account. The temperature on a cold day.Yes, and those aren't real negative objects, they're artifacts of an arbitrary numerical system.

EDIT: Sorry, correction, the negative temperature is, the debt is an attempt at using numbers to describe a contractual obligation.

I'm not trying to be funny or awkward here - people do say things like, "Minus one degree below freezing."
Yes, because that's the measurement system set up using arbitrary points of reference. But using absolute temperature, there's no "negative heat"-- you can have no heat or some heat.

Not exactly, but I've seen opticians and photographers place things at infinity. They adjust their camera lenses to be close to infinity.

Again, not a real thing, just a meaurement with an arbitrary label "infinity". If it were really possible to set a camera for actual infinity, we wouldn't need the Hubble Telescope, everyone would just point their cameras up. ;)

[Paul Beardsley]

Yes, and those aren't real negative objects, they're artifacts of an arbitrary numerical system.

EDIT: Sorry, correction, the negative temperature is, the debt is an attempt at using numbers to describe a contractual obligation.
People can say they have minus twenty pounds in their bank account.

Yes, because that's the measurement system set up using arbitrary points of reference. But using absolute temperature, there's no "negative heat"-- you can have no heat or some heat.
Non-scientists generally don't use the Kelvin scale when they are saying what the temperature is.

Again, not a real thing, just a meaurement with an arbitrary label "infinity". If it were really possible to set a camera for actual infinity, we wouldn't need the Hubble Telescope, everyone would just point their cameras up. ;)
It is a real thing - it's the point at which light travels in parallel lines (or close enough).

Even if these things were not real, as you argue, they are taken to be so when we use the words in our language.

[Noclevername]

People can say they have minus twenty pounds in their bank account. Yes, they can say anything they like. But the point is, if you open up the bank vault there's not a negative-twenty pound note inside. It's not really negative, it uses negative to represent a debt.


Non-scientists generally don't use the Kelvin scale when they are saying what the temperature is.
Not relevant.
The amount of heat present is still nonzero, making what "non-scientists generally use" innacurate.

It is a real thing - it's the point at which light travels in parallel lines (or close enough). "Close enough" is a nonscientist's term. ;) It's still not an accurate use of the word infinity.

Even if these things were not real, as you argue, they are taken to be so when we use the words in our language.
As a metaphor, infinity can be used. But it still doesn't represent a real, measureable thing.

[Paul Beardsley]

I think you are trying to shift the goalposts here, Noclevername.

Tautologies are concerned with the use of the language - English in this case.

It is correct English for a photographer to say, "That gatepost is at infinity." He would adjust his camera lens so that it was on the little figure-8-on-its-side setting.

The fact that the photographer would not adjust the camera again to photograph an object twice the distance of the gatepost suggests that this context-based use of the word "infinity" is pretty meaningful.

The Centigrade scale is a measure of the number of degrees above freezing point, not a measure of the absolute amount of heat present. So again, it is correct English to talk of negative Centigrade temperature.

And if you're going to quibble about the lack of negative-twenty pound notes... What do you think an ordinary twenty pound note is? It's a piece of paper that represents a value of twenty pounds! As someone once said, money was the original virtual reality.

[Noclevername]

I think you are trying to shift the goalposts here, Noclevername.

Tautologies are concerned with the use of the language - English in this case.

It is correct English for a photographer to say, "That gatepost is at infinity." He would adjust his camera lens so that it was on the little figure-8-on-its-side setting.

The fact that the photographer would not adjust the camera again to photograph an object twice the distance of the gatepost suggests that this context-based use of the word "infinity" is pretty meaningful.

The Centigrade scale is a measure of the number of degrees above freezing point, not a measure of the absolute amount of heat present. So again, it is correct English to talk of negative Centigrade temperature.

And if you're going to quibble about the lack of negative-twenty pound notes... What do you think an ordinary twenty pound note is? It's a piece of paper that represents a value of twenty pounds! As someone once said, money was the original virtual reality.


I'm not moving the goalposts, I'm just saying the ball is nowhere near them. Given that they are at infinity.


You seem to have inverted my point. You can call it any word you want. But the word infinity is still technically. It's a misuse of the word. Just as "zero degrees C/F" is still not the literal truth, as there is a nonzero amount of heat present. Common usage defines only usage, not accuracy.

[Maksutov]

Yes, and negative numbers are also used, doesn't make them real.There are plenty of negative numbers in the domain of the reals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_numbers).Have you ever seen negative-one of something?Sure. Take for example an exercise where one is counting glasses filled with water. The population consists of ten that are filled and ten that aren't. The latter ten are negative ones. Or counted an infinity of somethign?Well, that might take some time, but it's possible to compare infinities and decide which one is bigger, such the infinity of all the real numbers versus the infinity of all the prime numbers. Mathematics is a form of logic-- it produces consistent garbage just as easily as it does true statements.Math is a lot like a computer (how strange!). The system works like a charm, but the GIGO function is dependent on the user.

[Maksutov]

My favorite taught -ology was paleontology, although I learned quite a bit about the subject on my own.

[TrAI]

This discussion about infinity really isn't relevant, as the statement wasn't a tautology at all. Also, the discussion is likely to be infinite, unending, of boundless proportions and to go on for ever, and no definitive conclusion is likely to emerge...

[Paul Beardsley]

You seem to have inverted my point.
I really don't know what your point is. That's why I said so earlier. If you want to continue this part of the discussion, it would be worth spelling it out.

Just as "zero degrees C/F" is still not the literal truth, as there is a nonzero amount of heat present. Common usage defines only usage, not accuracy.
How can zero degrees C not be the literal truth? It is a clear and unambiguous statement about temperature compared to the freezing point of water at atmospheric pressure. It is not trying to be anything more than this; it is not trying to say anything about the amount of heat present.

A certain beach hut on Hayling Island is located at 0m above sea level. This is literally true. Other features are located above and below (plus or minus). They are all about 6,000,000m above the centre of the Earth, but the statement is not trying to say anything about that.

[SeanF]

Take for example an exercise where one is counting glasses filled with water. The population consists of ten that are filled and ten that aren't. The latter ten are negative ones.
Are you saying that if you were shown twenty glasses, ten full and ten empty, and asked how many glasses of water there are, you'd say, "Zero"?

[Noclevername]

There are plenty of negative numbers in the domain of the reals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_numbers).
Again, "real" in name only.


Sure. Take for example an exercise where one is counting glasses filled with water. The population consists of ten that are filled and ten that aren't. The latter ten are negative ones. No, those are zeroes. No water, not less than no water. "Negative?" In. Name. Only.


Well, that might take some time, but it's possible to compare infinities and decide which one is bigger, such the infinity of all the real numbers versus the infinity of all the prime numbers.[Can you see which is bigger by direct observation? Can you measure the length? Can it be counted? Where is it located? How did you get there and what did it look like? What observational tools did you use to see all the way to the end of infinity? How long did it take to measure?

Math is a lot like a computer (how strange!). The system works like a charm, but the GIGO function is dependent on the user.
Exactly. It's only useful if it's based on some useful data. By itself, mathematics proves nothing.

[peteshimmon]

What I can say is I will evade the question!

[mike alexander]

Can you see which is bigger by direct observation? Can you measure the length? Can it be counted? Where is it located? How did you get there and what did it look like? What observational tools did you use to see all the way to the end of infinity? How long did it take to measure?

Noclevername, have you thought of changing your monicker to Kronecker?

[Noclevername]

Noclevername, have you thought of changing your monicker to Kronecker?

Explain, please.

[Noclevername]

I really don't know what your point is. That's why I said so earlier. If you want to continue this part of the discussion, it would be worth spelling it out.

Obviously, it's not worth continuing, as I've explained as best I can and you still don't understand. What we got here is a failure to communicate.

...So how about that local sports team?

[Paul Beardsley]

Obviously, it's not worth continuing, as I've explained as best I can and you still don't understand.
I wasn't aware you'd made any attempt to explain.

However, AFAIAC this is an anomaly. I enjoy most of your posts, so I'm not going to worry about a single conversation that hasn't quite worked out.

So how about that local sports team?
I can't remember what that was about, but what the hey, let's go with it anyway! How about a local sports team who live nearby and work together on a competitive game with a dominant physical element?

[mike alexander]

God made integers, all else is the work of man.
-Leopold Kronecker

Just thinking of Leopold Kronecker, 19th century mathematician who believed if it couldn't be described with integers, it didn't exist.

[Noclevername]

I wasn't aware you'd made any attempt to explain. Then obviously it wasn't a good explanation. Sorry.

I can't remember what that was about, but what the hey, let's go with it anyway!

It's from The Simpsons. Mr. Burns, trying to be "hip".

As long as we're defining terms, what do we consider a real sport? Anything that involved moving a ball on a field, obviously, but what about "technical sports" like competitive cheerleading or synchronized swimming?

[Paul Beardsley]

As long as we're defining terms, what do we consider a real sport? Anything that involved moving a ball on a field, obviously, but what about "technical sports" like competitive cheerleading or synchronized swimming?
It's Friday night, and I've had some wine, so I'm worried I might be repeating myself here...

...But I've done a search and it seems I haven't mentioned this before.

Back in 2001, I had a colleague who was a student who had had a somewhat privileged life. He'd been taught flute by James Galway, for instance. He was a nice enough guy, though.

Then one day he asked me if I was into rugby.

Nobody could be less interested in rugby than me. But I said, "Yes." Then, a few moments later, I said, "Ah, I take it you're talking about conventional rugby?"

He looked a bit bemused and said, "What other kind is there?"

On impulse, I picked up my ruler and said, "This!" I held one end on the edge of my desk and twanged the other end so that it went bdbdbdbrrrrdbdr.

He looked sceptical. "That's rugby?"

"Where I come from we play it all the time."

So from then on, whenever we disagreed about something, I'd challenge him to rugby. I'd look at how he'd positioned his fingers and say thing like, "You've gone for an unusual gambit there, but I have no choice to concede victory to you. Well done!"

Other times I'd say, "Oh good grief! What were you thinking of? Have you learnt anything?"

As long as I'd let him win a few, express surprise a few times, he seemed to be totally convinced that twanging one's ruler on a desk was, somehow, rugby. And I don't think he was turning the tables on me - he really was taken in. Many times he'd express exasperation and say, "When are you going to explain the rules?" But I don't think he ever doubted my honesty.

Perhaps I should feel ashamed...

[Noclevername]

As long as I'd let him win a few, express surprise a few times, he seemed to be totally convinced that twanging one's ruler on a desk was, somehow, rugby. And I don't think he was turning the tables on me - he really was taken in. Many times he'd express exasperation and say, "When are you going to explain the rules?" But I don't think he ever doubted my honesty.

Perhaps I should feel ashamed...

I don't know whether to applaud or scold, but either way, that's a great story.

Twannnggg! :lol:

[Paul Beardsley]

Twannnggg!
Brrdrrbrrrdir!

I win that round!

Wanna play again?

[Noclevername]

Brrdrrbrrrdir!

I win that round!

Wanna play again?

Oh, no you don't! Can't fool me that easily!

First, I'm going to practice! Then we'll see who's better!

[Paul Beardsley]

Bring. It. On.

:)

[mike alexander]

When I was a kid my friends and I would play badminton with a whiffle golf ball. To make it more interesting one would stand in the front yard and one in the back yard with the house as a net. Gentleman's rules, game over when the last ball went in the house gutter.

[Maksutov]

Take for example an exercise where one is counting glasses filled with water. The population consists of ten that are filled and ten that aren't. The latter ten are negative ones.Are you saying that if you were shown twenty glasses, ten full and ten empty, and asked how many glasses of water there are, you'd say, "Zero"?

Nope. The total count of glasses is 20. The unfilled glasses are negative ones. The conditions for the experiment, BTW, are that the glasses are either filled or contain no water, and that a glass is unity. Thought that was obvious in the first example, but here I'm spelling it out.

Therefore the equation is

20 (glasses) - 10 (unfilled glasses) = 10 (filled glasses)

The inverse is true if the question is how many unfilled glasses there are, in which case the negative one applies to the other half of the population.

What's negative just depends on how the number line is drawn.

[Maksutov]

Again, "real" in name only.Funny that we can use those "unreal" numbers to design electronic circuits and calculate the trajectories of interplanetary spacecraft. No, those are zeroes. No water, not less than no water. "Negative?" In. Name. Only.See my example as related to SeanF above.Can you see which is bigger by direct observation? Can you measure the length? Can it be counted? Where is it located? How did you get there and what did it look like? What observational tools did you use to see all the way to the end of infinity? How long did it take to measure?Didn't need direct observation. The way the two series are constructed indicates which one will always have the greater population.

It's like Eratosthenes calculating the circumference of the Earth. All he needed was the change in shadow angle and the distance between two locations in Egypt to figure it out. He didn't need to take a ruler and make contiguous measurements as he walked around the entire Earth.Can you see which is bigger by direct observation? We can't see air by direct observation, therefore, per your standards, it doesn't exist.Exactly. It's only useful if it's based on some useful data. By itself, mathematics proves nothing.Pure mathematical proofs fill more textbooks than I could possibly reference. They have been subject to rigorous attempts at disproofs and have stood up quite fine.

Math doesn't have to be tied to useful data to be true. Quite often the math is done first as a purely abstract exercise, then the results of that exercise are found to produce useful data when meaningful data are plugged into the equations.

BTW, here's a picture of a number line:

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1197/numberlinepv3.th.gif (http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=numberlinepv3.gif)

See the whole number just to the left of the zero? That's -1. Also the black dots and arrow demonstrate how 1 + -1 = 0.

[Maksutov]

Sure. Take for example an exercise where one is counting glasses filled with water. The population consists of ten that are filled and ten that aren't. The latter ten are negative ones.
No, those are zeroes. No water, not less than no water. "Negative?" In. Name. Only.Let's look at this another way. Let's use your "zeroes".

The total count of glasses is 20. The unfilled glasses are zeroes. The conditions for the experiment, BTW, are that the glasses are either filled or contain no water, and that a glass is unity.

Therefore the equation is

20 (glasses) - 0 (unfilled glasses) = 20 (filled glasses)

:think:

[KLIK]

sorry if I'm ressurecting an old thread but I came across this one;

"a long sleeved T shirt"

And i can't see any other way of describing said item without being excessively verbose.

[Neverfly]

sorry if I'm ressurecting an old thread but I came across this one;

"a long sleeved T shirt"

And i can't see any other way of describing said item without being excessively verbose.

As opposed to "he was wearing a short sleeved T-shirt"?

[HenrikOlsen]

Just call it a long sleeved tunic.

[Noclevername]

Let's look at this another way. Let's use your "zeroes".

The total count of glasses is 20. The unfilled glasses are zeroes. The conditions for the experiment, BTW, are that the glasses are either filled or contain no water, and that a glass is unity.

Therefore the equation is

20 (glasses) - 0 (unfilled glasses) = 20 (filled glasses)

:think:

Nonsense with an equals sign is still nonsense. The amount of water per glass bears no relation at all to the number of glasses. You might as well say 2+2=fish.

[Darkwing]

Too simplistic.

And this one has been partially mentioned:
Department of Redundant Tautologies and Superfluous Pleonasms Department