Survival Instincts

[mugaliens]

The people that know me and how I am in the water simply call me "fish."

During water survival training more than twenty years ago, I decided to simply swim to the opposite side of said object, and it took a couple of minutes. The instructors came looking for me, with scuba gear, but I had not yet reached my objective. But it was important due to the scenario with which they presented us. When we surfaced, they chewed me out, I presented my position, and they agreed that while it was a risky choice, given the circumstances, it was the right choice.

That was 1990.

In 2007, a United States Coast Guard Rescue Swimmer (I put that in all-caps because I respect the heck out of what they do. Still, just 9 months ago, one USCG Resque Swimmer (age 26, and I'm nearly two decades older) challenged me to a breath holding contest.

Fine. You're on.

He last something like 2 min 25 sec. I kept going towards three.

What does this prove?

Nothing, other than the fact that some humans have a better, stronger survival instinct (or quite possibly, abilities) than others, regardless of our professions, or ages.

So please explain how it is possible that with my puny 1/10th brain I can locate a dolphin (with my eyes and my puny brain) and at will in a simple getup consisting of a bathing suit and a "stun gun' (12 guage bang charge) go out into the water, literaly bare naked (except for the bathing suit briefs) and come close enough to employ the stun gun against this massively more intelligent being?

Dudes and dudettes, while skin-diving I've placed my hands on dolphines! Wonderful animals.

And please note: I've never done this! I have swum with dolphins, once in their pools (wonderful experience), the rest of the time in their wilds (mostly while body surfing). I would NEVER harm a dolphin.

I've also encountered hammerhead sharks and stone fish (small, but nasty and very deadly little buggers).

My point is this: I define intelligence as to who's at the top of the food chain. Only microbes and virii have been able to get my goat so far, and I've still beaten them!

So, back to the OP: What is intelligence?

I've seen all sorts of "wild" animals from whales to dolphins to chimps to crocs and iguanas exhibit signs of "intelligencel"

Again, I maintain it depends on the species, their capabilities and limitations.

If it were ONLY about "survival of the fittest," that question is easy to answer - simply duck into a shelter, set off a few thousand nukes, emerge a few years later, and wham! Most of life on Earth is dead.

Except for the cockroaches, and I REALLY don't want to be looking towards them as a source of food...

[Kaptain K]

One mark of intelligence is the ability to learn. I'd bet that you couldn't harm the same dolphin twice!

[Neverfly]

Inherent traits and behavior:
Demonstratively, most animals exhibit genetically encoded behaviors.
Spiders spinning intricate webs is an example.

Widening eyes, screaming or jumping when startled is one example in animals.
These behaviors also take on more subtle forms. In humans it includes how they walk, move or tilt their head when speaking.

Learned behavior:
This includes the ability to access and change your behavior. Conscientious thought, controlled reactions, etc.

Mugaliens, your example of breath holding is a trained or learned ability. You resist the genetic urge to breathe.

Exhibiting signs of some intellect does not necessarily mean that individual creature is intelligent, rather, that behavior has proven to be beneficial for survival.

[mugaliens]

One mark of intelligence is the ability to learn. I'd bet that you couldn't harm the same dolphin twice!

Then learn this - I've never "harmed" any dolphin. They're wonderful creatures.

I do mind your insinuation that my touching a sea mammal when I'm in their environment and they can outswim me six ways to Sunday is some sort of "harm." In that environment, if I were intent on doing harm, I might have scratched him/her, while him/her could easily have killed me if him/her had wanted to.

Beyond the breakers, I was no longer the dominant species. The dolphins, whales, and sharks were.

[Neverfly]

Beyond the breakers, I was no longer the dominant species. The dolphins, whales, and sharks were.

We hunt in packs.

[geonuc]

I really don't think KK was insinuating that. I read his post to mean that if 'a person' were to harm a dolphin, the animal is intelligent enough to learn from that and protect itself in the future.

[Moose]

We hunt in packs.

On land, we are tool-using pack hunters. In the water, tool-less and solo, we are prey.

As dolphin and shark would be on land, only much more so.

The characteristic you're trying to describe, Mugs, isn't intelligence, unless you redefine intelligence to mean "does not consider me prey at the moment".

The word I think you're looking for is: "adapted". "Specialized" is another good description. A better phrase might be "not extinct". Dolphins are very well adapted to their environment. As are sharks. As are the ants in my yard (*shakes fist*). As are most species who not currently on the very brink of extinction.

[mugaliens]

Inherent traits and behavior:
Demonstratively, most animals exhibit genetically encoded behaviors.
Spiders spinning intricate webs is an example.]/quote]

One of my friends in high school had a tarantula. Her name was Susan (the spider, not my friend - his name was Hal). Normally, Susan was a very sedate spider, as are nearly all tarantula. Walking slowly, will never bite humans, etc.

One day he took her out, put her on the bed and said, "watch this." He slapped his hands on the bed on either side of Susan and BAM! Susan jumped more than a foot.

Intelligence or survival instinct?

I say the latter, along with intricately spun webs.

One day, Hal called me over, saying he'd taught Susan a trick. What he'd taught her to do was to walk in a right triangle before he gave her her favorite food (live crickets). (Early on, Hall used to just drop a cricket in her cage. After a while, he got her to take them out of his hands.)

Sure enough, he held out her food, and instead of marching up and taking her food, she did a 90 degree approach.

Learned behavior in a spider. Wow.

Scientists have demonstrated learned behavior in all sorts of "lower" life forms, including flies, earthworms, even bacteria. Whoopie.

Survival of the fittest, baby. Instinct and learning go hand in hand. About the only organism on the planet that I say doesn't actually learn are virii. They simply breed by numbers. If billions die and the one mutation lives on to continue to repopulate the species, game's on, baby!

Growing up in the South I've seen many spun webs! My favorite web is spun by the golden orb spider. Big! Both the spider and the web.

[quote]Mugaliens, your example of breath holding is a trained or learned ability. You resist the genetic urge to breathe.

I think that's about half right. But nearly all humans/tribes around the world have developed the ability to swim and hold breath as a way of harvesting food (mainly mussels, lobster, and other shelfish). There exist some swimming monkies (http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=NWxAyvBIdbU)in the world, too.

In case some of you might be offended, here's another video (http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=cx2jyBMY5bY)showing that some monkies do indeed swim naturally.

So - innate (instinctual), or learned?

Good grief, people. I never taught my cat how to swim, yet when he fell into our pool he swam to the ladder and climbed out. Same with our dog.

Humans have a swimming instinct, and the way we do it instinctually is called "dog paddling." Once we learn how to swim it's called the "crawl" or "overarm technique."

By the way, here's a clip (http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=6UPPS6F4NU8&feature=related)of the most amazing open monkey cage I've ever seen. So why do the monkeys stay inside the fence even though they could easily escape?

Because that's where the food is (http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=m_VURr6jnWQ)! Kinison for you....

Exhibiting signs of some intellect does not necessarily mean that individual creature is intelligent, rather, that behavior has proven to be beneficial for survival.

So why do monkies swim? They're not foraging for food...

[Kaptain K]

I really don't think KK was insinuating that. I read his post to mean that if 'a person' were to harm a dolphin, the animal is intelligent enough to learn from that and protect itself in the future.

Thank you! That's exactly what I was saying. No implication that any dolphins had been harmed.

[Kaptain K]

Learned behavior in a spider. Wow.

I once trained an orb spider to leave me room to get into my house. On my old house, the front door was set back from the wall by about a half a meter. I worked nights, so I left the porch light on when I left for work. This, of course, attracted all kinds of nocturnal flying insects and was a veritable feast for a spider. Every morning when I got home (around 4AM) there would be a beautiful web across my door. Rather than destroy such a work of art, I would just trim the bottom of the web enough to get in with a slight duck of my head. After about a week or so, she began limiting her web to the top 3/4 meter of the doorway. :clap:

[Neverfly]

I once trained an orb spider to leave me room to get into my house. On my old house, the front door was set back from the wall by about a half a meter. I worked nights, so I left the porch light on when I left for work. This, of course, attracted all kinds of nocturnal flying insects and was a veritable feast for a spider. Every morning when I got home (around 4AM) there would be a beautiful web across my door. Rather than destroy such a work of art, I would just trim the bottom of the web enough to get in with a slight duck of my head. After about a week or so, she began limiting her web to the top 3/4 meter of the doorway. :clap:

Did she ever spell out that's "Some Pig" in the web? :whistle:

[Kaptain K]

Did she ever spell out that's "Some Pig" in the web? :whistle:

:lol: :lol: :clap: :dance:

No, and I didn't call her Charlotte either!

[Neverfly]

:lol: :lol: :clap: :dance:

No, and I didn't call her Charlotte either!

Sorry Kaptain K... But you uhhh... Walked into:doh:... that one...

[Kaptain K]

Sorry Kaptain K... But you uhhh... Walked into:doh:... that one...

I'd rather walk into something like that than into a full grown orb spider's web! :wall:

[KaiYeves]

Gosh! I can't hold my breath longer than forty seconds!

[Jeff Root]

Kai,

I suspect that mugailiens was exhaling. You can go much, much longer
if you exhale than if you don't.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Ronald Brak]

Three minutes, ten seconds. And I didn't exhale. I've heard people saying you should exhale, but I don't understand why it would help.

[Torsten]

I read somewhere years ago that the build up of CO2 in the lungs drives the desire to breathe rather than the depletion of oxygen. It seems odd, as the concentration of CO2 would continue to increase. So it must be based on the absolute amount in the lungs (?).

Anyway, I've always been able to swim a little farther underwater by exhaling slowly just as I feel I'm reaching reach my limit.


ETA: I obviously mis-remembered that, as I just read that it is the CO2 concentration in the bloodstream that triggers the breathing reflex. Oh well, carry on. . .

[sarongsong]

...why do monkies swim?...There's not always a human (http://images.theglobeandmail.com/archives/RTGAM/images/20070503/wcapcon0504/monkey_backbig.jpg) around when they need one! http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

...My point is this: I define intelligence as to who's at the top of the food chain...These guys are pretty close:
Do orcas use symbols?
...In 2001 a landmark paper was published in the British Journal of Behavioural and Brain Sciences called Culture in Whales and Dolphins (http://www.orcanetwork.org/nathist/scifield.html#rendell), by Luke Rendell and Hal Whitehead...In the abstract the authors conclude that:
"The complex and stable vocal and behavioural cultures of sympatric groups of killer whales (Orcinus orca) appear to have no parallel outside humans (emphasis mine) and represent an independent evolution of cultural faculties."...
OrcaNetwork (http://www.orcanetwork.org/nathist/symbolsshort.html)

[tdvance]

I read somewhere years ago that the build up of CO2 in the lungs drives the desire to breathe rather than the depletion of oxygen.

it's true--if you are in an all-helium environment, you can hold your breath indefinitely. In fact, you'd have to consciously breathe (for what good it would do), since it's CO2 that stimulates the automatic breathing reflex.

[Jeff Root]

I read somewhere years ago that the build up of CO2 in the lungs drives
the desire to breathe rather than the depletion of oxygen.
it's true--if you are in an all-helium environment, you can hold your
breath indefinitely. In fact, you'd have to consciously breathe
(for what good it would do), since it's CO2 that stimulates the
automatic breathing reflex.
As Torsten edited his post to add, it is the CO2 concentration in
the blood which stimulates the breathing reflex. Receptors for CO2
are located in the neck. (On the carotid arteries, I think.)

Being in an all-helium environment should make no difference. You
would still use stored oxygen to make CO2, raising the concentration
in your bloodstream. If you are not making CO2, you are unconscious
and probably dead.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Ronald Brak]

Anyway, I've always been able to swim a little farther underwater by exhaling slowly just as I feel I'm reaching reach my limit.

The urge to breath grows stronger due to CO2 build up, but I'd much rather put up with that urge than lose both some oxygen and bouancy by breathing out a little. I find having a full set of lungs very useful for getting back up to where the air is. (Note this is for free diving. For scuba you have to breath out while ascending or risk your lungs popping.)

[Fazor]

WRT the OP:

Well, I can't vouch for the accuracy of the article, but I talked about a study focusing on a particular part of the human brain. Here's the thread: The Three-dimensional human mind (http://www.bautforum.com/off-topic-babbling/68939-three-dimensional-human-mind.html?highlight=Brain+Future). If it's correct, the existance and functionality of this section (or lack thereof) in species could be the biggest factor in determining what we consider "intelligence" (which, IMHO is basically ability to learn from past events to predict probable future events... e.g., "Last time I touched a glowing-red stovetop, it hurt. If I touch a glowing red stovetop again, it will probably hurt").

From the article, and based on my limited experience with animals; most animals have this ability to an extent, but that it's much, much worse than our own.

[Lianachan]

Guybrush Threepwood can famously hold his breath for ten minutes.

[Neverfly]

Guybrush Threepwood can famously hold his breath for ten minutes.

Did he get his name from the noises he makes when he finally takes a breath?:neutral:

[Fazor]

Did he get his name from the noises he makes when he finally takes a breath?:neutral:

He was awarded such a manly moniker because of his daring adventures and unparalleled bravery, and because he was never known to monkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_Island_%28series%29) around.

[HenrikOlsen]

Anyway, I've always been able to swim a little farther underwater by exhaling slowly just as I feel I'm reaching reach my limit.
In my experience it varies with depth, but for shallow underwater swimming, exhaling helps since it means you have to work less to stay underwater.
Buoyancy is counterproductive for underwater work.

Its been quite a while since I did much diving, but I remember I was far in the slow end on breathing rate even though I wasn't very fit.
I had to do some ajustment when we trained buddy-breathing, since we were told to breathe twice and hand the air to the buddy. First time I tried it, my buddy was going for the surface before I'd finished breathing once:)

As unfit as I am at the moment, 2 minutes is all I can do with little preparation.