Do our pets "love" us?

[banquo's_bumble_puppy]

I have a pet cockatiel. I have had him for 7 years and he is relatively tame. He will let me pick him up with one hand but only if I'm holding a mirror in the other hand and he can see the "other" bird. He lets me scratch his head and he loves it when I play back recordings of himself singing (again he thinks it's another bird). He grinds his beak when he is contented. Very rarely will he make eye contact with me. My question: does he "love" me? Would it really make much difference if a starnger started feeding him? Would he care if I disappeared? Is love dependent on brain size?

[Fazor]

Well, you'd have to define love, since it's a fairly ambiguous term. If we think about what it means for us to love someone, I could say;

A person I love is someone I trust, someone who makes me happy and who I enjoy being around. Someone who provides for my needs, and someone who I care enough about to protect their needs aswell.

Or however you want to put it. I have two dogs. They trust me (in asmuch as they don't get defensive, and don't feel threatened even when I put them in a vulnerable position). Whether or not I "make them happy" is up to interpratation, but I'd say yes. I think a lot of pet owners would confidently say they can tell when their pets are happy. I feed them, and give them a place to live in comfort (provide for needs), and they in turn are very protective of me. So, could you call it love? Sure, I think so.

[tofu]

The way he experiences things is very different to the way humans experience things. His brain likely isn't capable of an exact duplicate of what we experience. However, he's doing whatever it is that a bird does and feeling something that's probably very similar to what you or would feel when in love.

Your question about what would happen if someone else interacted with him is a great way to think about what it means to be an alien. On Star Trek DS9, there was a character named Dax who was a symbiot. We, as humans, are usually only capable of falling in love with the body. Dax was hot. If you took the slug out of her chest and replaced it with another one, we humans would continue to respond to her as before. If there was a major change in personality our love would eventually sour, but the point is that our feelings of attachment and love are directed first and foremost at what we see and feel. We don't have the instincts that a member of Dax's species would have that would make us love the slug inside her.

Your bird's experience might be similar. He might not have the instincts that lets him attach his feelings to a particular person. Then again, maybe he does, I'm no bird expert. But I hope I've made a good example of how to think about this sort of thing. We feel love in the way that our species feels it about the things that our species feels it. Your bird has his unique experience, and an alien would have her unique experience.

I can imagine a member of Dax's race posting about how he wonders if his human companion really loves him, and what would happen if some other slug in the same body replaced him. The answer is, the human is probably going to continue to feel those feelings of love for whichever slug is in the hot chick's body. That doesn't mean that we as humans don't feel love. We do. Our instincts are just a bit different.

[JohnD]

Fazor,
You're thinking human, not thinking dog.
You are the dominant member of their little pack. By tolerating a vulnerable position they confirm their subordinate position, by providing for the pack you confirm your dominant one. Of course they stand by you if you are theatened - that's what pack members do.

And bbp,
All the things you mention are flock activities, especially mutual grooming, and that's confirmed by your birds' need to 'see' another bird while you groom him.

"Love", requires self-awareness as an individual, and an ability to make concious decisions. It is not at all clear if animals other than apes can do this. It is more likely that they are pre-programmed by evolution) to respond to events in a way that happens to benfit us and them. So who cares with pets? We can project our love onto them and enjoy their response! What better than a faithful hound or a bird that repeats what you say?

Just don't project human/ape abilities onto them.

John

[SeanF]

I can imagine a member of Dax's race posting about how he wonders if his human companion really loves him, and what would happen if some other slug in the same body replaced him.
Or if the same slug was transferred to a different body, which was actually the plot of the first "Star Trek" episode to feature the Trill, TNG's "The Host." :)

[Fazor]

Fazor,
You're thinking human, not thinking dog.
You are the dominant member of their little pack. By tolerating a vulnerable position they confirm their subordinate position, by providing for the pack you confirm your dominant one. Of course they stand by you if you are theatened - that's what pack members do.


I know there's animal-behavioral explinations, my point is "love" is whatever you define it as, and behavioral reasons aside, pets often meet what we as humans define as a reciprical loving relationship.

[mugaliens]

Science has proven that love is about 99% chemical pairing for mutual benefit

There, folks, I had to go and nuke the myths of mankind since dawn memorial in just 15 words. Sorry.

Eagles mate for life, as do many other animals throughout the animal kingdom. Others, including our closest relatives, the chimpanzee, are veritable sluts, mating with as many male suitors as will have them (and whom they will accept) each cycle.

We humans have generally broken down "love" into four subcategories:

Storge - parent-child

Philos - friends/siblings

Platonic - emotional love without the physical attraction

Eros - physical without the emotions

Agape - pure, unconditional love

I think most relationships are a combination of much of the middle three. Between humans and animals it's largely storge (we're their parents), philos, or platonic.

It's still all (well, mostly) chemical.

[Kaptain K]

Eagles mate for life, as do many other animals throughout the animal kingdom.
And in most, if not all, fidelity is not 100%!

[Moose]

I would defend the hypothesis that pets can and do love, sometimes quite vividly, in their own way.

The anecdotes I could draw on, however, are intensely personal, and I'm not sure I feel up to relating them right now. Maybe later.

[Van Rijn]

"Love", requires self-awareness as an individual, and an ability to make concious decisions. It is not at all clear if animals other than apes can do this. It is more likely that they are pre-programmed by evolution) to respond to events in a way that happens to benfit us and them.


Human emotions also came about through evolution. We might misread the emotions of a pet through human filters, but there is no reason to assume human emotions are any more "real" than theirs.

[mike alexander]

Can a Dog Love?

A dog can't love
Came from above;
I think you're wrong.
My little song
Of canine praise
Sounds through the days
Both loud and still.
And now I will
Objection make
To surely take
You down a peg:
He loves my leg.

[tofu]

It is more likely that they are pre-programmed by evolution) to respond to events

What do you think it feels like to be pre-programmed by evolution? I would argue that it feels good to do the thing you're programmed to do, and feels wrong, or somehow empty to do something else. But wait, isn't that exactly the way we feel? When I get a girlfriend, I feel good. When I'm without one, I feel empty.

It seems clear to me that we humans are pre-programmed by evolution in exactly the same way as every other species. If birds mate for life, they do it because it feels like the right thing to do.

[geonuc]

I love my cats. They seem to like the attention, so I'm good with that.

[Paul Leeks]

animals love just like I love my friends and family its something science cannot measure,they respond to different levels of communication,"science" cannot measure the "chemistry" between two people,because it's abstract.I have studied psychology what a load of crap...science is objective,reality isn't.Animals respond to love and are affectionate in their own way,when your pet dog is looking at you it's communicating with you...they read your body language and "bond" with you.

[tofu]

its something science cannot measure

I appreciate your sentiment, but this statement simply isn't true. What you feel as love is explained quite easily and appears quite clearly in CAT scans. The feeling is your brain rewarding you with chemicals like serotonin when you take some action that evolution has programmed you to take. The instruments of science allow us to measure the reward chemicals and the brain states. We understand somewhat less how DNA translates into behavioral modification, but the general concept is known. It's no mystery.

You feel love because you're following an instinct that has made your species successful. It feels magical and mystical and wonderful but there's nothing magical or mystical about it. You feel love simply because of those chemicals and because of the way your brain is wired. The chemicals and the wiring is there to encourage you to follow an instinct. The instinct exists because it's helped your species to survive. This explains not only love, but altruism, territoriality, group dynamics (like disliking outsiders), that strange sexual attraction for outsiders, heroism, the willingness to blindly follow a leader, the incest taboo - basically everything that you feel without having to think.

If you were a member of another species, you would have those exact same feelings for a whole different set of behaviors. There's no doubt in my mind that when a male praying mantis finishes mating with a female, and the female proceeds to eat the male, that he dies in ecstasy. And male praying mantises (if they could hold a pencil) write songs and wax poetic about how great it is to let a female eat them. They probably say that it's magical and mystical and something that science just cannot explain.

[Paul Leeks]

Tofu

Science might measure biological chemistry but I don't think it can measure "chemistry".And to me I don't care too much for evolution,"psychology" I am a human being...not a robot!

I am a spiritual being having a human experience(forget religion). I am here for a reason not an evolutionary accident.

[Moose]

Tofu, I'd say Fazor's right. Whatever the mechanism for love, some pets do seem to experience it.

[tofu]

Tofu, I'd say Fazor's right. Whatever the mechanism for love, some pets do seem to experience it.

Isn't that what I've been saying??

[Moose]

Upon rereading, yeah, I guess you are. I guess what I'm saying is that as much as I like knowing how things and people work, I'm not at all curious about the mechanics of love. It works. Maybe it's the romantic in me.

[mugaliens]

One of the reasons "a dog is man's best friend" is because from a social point of view, we have so much in common with their species. It's little wonder we bond with them, and they with us, so well.

[Kaptain K]

One thing about cats and dogs is that we did not domesticate them. They knew a good thing when they saw it and domesticated themselves!

[Jens]

Very rarely will he make eye contact with me.

Probably our idea of eye contact is different from theirs. They don't have forward facing eyes, do they? If so, I think they are used to looking at a variety of things at the same time, looking for predators. Birds like owls and eagles will seem to be making eye contact, but that's because they are predators. Horses also don't seem to be making eye contact, but I think that's because they are always looking around to make sure there are no predators.

[Kaptain K]

Basic difference between predators and prey.
Predators - eyes forward, looking for prey.
Prey - eyes on the side of the head, looking for predators sneaking up from any direction.

[BigDon]

And the blends in between Kaptain.

Predators not at the top of the food chain have varying combos of that. Humans for example have forward facing eyes, but sideways placed ears.

I was the first person to breed needlefish in the home aquarium, X. cancila, and their eye set up is weird in that the have sideways facing eyes, but they also have notched pupils. The pupil is round for most of its circumference then diverges towards its bill. The notchs allow them to see forward well enough to grasp fleeing prey. When you look at them head on, you can tell they are looking at you dispite the sideways facing immobile eyes.

One wierd illusion you get from the shape of the eye is you don't see the notch looking at the fish sideways as several pictures will show you. The pupil looks round. You have to look at the fish head-on to see the notchs

[Kaptain K]

Yeah, I was going on basic generalities. In truth, if there is a potential niche, nature will do her best to fill it!

[chrissy]

My question: does he "love" me? Would it really make much difference if a starnger started feeding him? Would he care if I disappeared?
Cockatiels normally have one owner and dislike anyone tryng to take their attention away from them, he probably does love you, has anyone tried picking him up? What was his reaction if they have? If he wasn't happy about it then you will have your answer about a stranger feeding him, and to the last part yes he probably would care if you disappeared!:sad:
In my friends Tattoo shop he has one, it hates women and screams when any female goes near him.:think: