Empty Force(martial arts)

[Paul Leeks]

in the chinese esoteric martial arts there "exist" something called Empty Force.Using chi to throw someone with explosive energy

I know there is scientific evidence for acupuncture meridians

In yoga there is detailed knowledge of Nadis(vital points) and the flow of prana(subtle energy)

I recently met a chi kung master,and I asked him about this martial art and he said it is true.

checkout:www.buqi.net/en/articles/empty_force.htm

the article is: "Empty Force in the Buqi System by Christel Wijmeersch" an interesting photo there!!

do I believe it? yes, I do. I have spoken to folk on youtube about it and say this force does exist..from their experience.

I have done aikido,good fun!

[Van Rijn]

I know there is scientific evidence for acupuncture meridians


There is? References?

[Jens]

in the chinese esoteric martial arts there "exist" something called Empty Force.Using chi to throw someone with explosive energy


If it really existed, then people would use it in K1 to knock down their opponents. The fact is, they punch and kick each other physically because there is no "chi" to use. It would be really cool to have contests with pro wrestlers throwing chairs at each other using the "force" like in Star Wars, but the fact is, as you have probably noticed, that they end up using their hands. Because the force don't exist.

[pzkpfw]

I know there is scientific evidence for acupuncture meridians

In yoga there is detailed knowledge of Nadis(vital points) and the flow of prana(subtle energy)

Disregarding whether either statement is true or not, do you see the difference in what was underlined?

[Fazor]

If it really existed, then people would use it in K1 to knock down their opponents. The fact is, they punch and kick each other physically because there is no "chi" to use. It would be really cool to have contests with pro wrestlers throwing chairs at each other using the "force" like in Star Wars, but the fact is, as you have probably noticed, that they end up using their hands. Because the force don't exist.

I submit that you, Sir, are wrong.

There's are extreemely powerfull forces that many fighters do use to launch thier opponents.

It's also used to fling chairs in "Wrestling".

There's loads of scientific data to back these forces up, even if they're not fully understood. There's also evidence that the achient chinese knew of these forces.

Of course, I'm talking about physics. ;)

[Paul Leeks]

I will try to get more info about acupuncture meridians..there was a lady doctor on a programme on TV talking about health and well being and mentioned about acuuncture meridians and science.

I have done Aikido. Ki is vital force(same as chi,prana) so there is a direct relationship with correct breathing and movement..everything flows effortlessly!

anyway checkout this link above regarding empty force!!

Paul

[Paul Leeks]

yeah I do(sort of) pzkpfw

Richard Dawkins says God does not exist

I goto the yoga centre, unfortunately for him GOD DOES EXIST

so when it comes to "scientific evidence" I go on discretion and who is saying it

Chi is the vital force,ki,prana

[Ronald Brak]

The Society of Righteous and Harmonious Fists believed that they could, through training, diet, martial arts, and prayer, perform extraordinary feats, such as flight and could become immune to swords and bullets. In November 1899 they rose up and drove the foreign devils from China. Unable to resist their aerial assaults European cities fell one by one before their might. Having no wish to directly rule over barbarians, the Empress Cu Xi accepted the surrender of the West in 1904. This is reguarded as the start of the modern age and ushered in a period of peace and prosperity the likes of which the world has never seen before. In 2004 the immortal empress Cu Xi celebrated the 100th year of Chinese rule on earth before changing her name to Tsu Hsi and flying through the vacuum of space to her summer palace on Europa.

[Tinaa]

Paul Leeks stop with the religious talk. It has nothing to do with space or astronomy and it doesn't matter if the topic is in OTB.

[pzkpfw]

The Society of Righteous and Harmonious Fists believed...

Reminded me of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Shirts

For Paul: the evidence was what the bullets did.

Sadly, what they knew (they'd be protected) was wrong.

[Tog_]

From one who has studied several martial art forms, I think there is something to chi, but not quite what has been described.

I think that the "power" of chi comes from the person focusing on what needs to be done and semi-consciously tapping into some reserve, maybe adrenaline, maybe some part of the brain that aids in focus that lets the person "nail" the technique. That said, I've been in a few demonstrations as a first hand participant and I can't explain how what did or didn't happen, did or didn't happen. Examples to follow.

Now, for the "Chi Push" in Tai Chi, it's really not so much chi thing as it is a physics thing. The defender practices the motions to the point they are second nature, in some cases instinctive. When an attack comes in, the person is already adjusting their own body position to best exploit the flaws in the attack. Tai Chi also uses the concept of "borrowed force" quite well.

Grab a partner.

Both people stand with the right foot in front and their torso facing each other. The defender must have thier legs slightly bent and remain as relaxed as posible at the waist. The attacker then uses thier right hand to push the defender's left shoulder. The defender will take that force, which has been applied off of the centerline, and use it to pivot thier right shoulder forward. At the same time the defender extends their right arm and aims it at the attacker's sternum. The more force the attacker puts into the shove, the more force is transferred back to them. Th defender does not need to put any of their own force into the rotation at all. They don't even need to extend their arm with any force, as long as it's nearly straight and stiff by the time hit makes contact. The defender will end up taking at least one, possibly upto several steps back to avoid falling.

Why it works:
When the attacker shoves, their shoulders rotate to be in the same position as thier feet. Since they were exerting force, their torso is tensed. he defender pushes back along the centerline of the attacker's torso. Since this can give no rotational energy, the only way for the attacker to respond is either to absorb it, or lean backwards to rotate on a horizontal axis. Most people can't do that very well, so they absorb the force. Their body position is such that that this force comes in almost parallel to the heal-toe line (most stability). The effect is that they are set back on their heels amost instantly. Any additional energy will tip them past the balance point, and they will have to step away. Usually with thier left foot.

If the defender adds to the this force, possibly by pushig off of the ground with thier rigt foot and making their own push with a slight upward angle, it's very possible to get the attacker to leave the ground with what appears to be a minimum of force on the part of the defender.

A similar technique in an aikido class sent me stumbling about 8 feet before I hit a wall.

I've actually used the same basic technique when shooting very large handguns. The recoil looks horrendous, but there is minimal pressure on my wrists.

Aikido uses much of the same physics. A very good book for anyone truely interested is called Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere. it explains much of the physics as well as touches on the use of chi.

One of two demonstrations I can't explain without chi was my first aikido instructor being too heavy to lift. He was a small man from Thailand. I'd guess he was about 5'4" and maybe 120 pounds. At this point in my life, I could hold 90 pounds of bagged dogfood in my arms and drop the three feet off of the display without incident. There is no reason I should not be able to lift a passive 120 poud person off of the ground. I tried for about 30 seconds and I coldn't even get one of his feet off the mat. he then grabbed my little finger and flipped me like a circus monkey. He explained that the reason I couldn't lift him is that he was thinking "down".

There is another one that I can do, but I don't know why. All I did to learn it was have it done on me. There may be a physiological reason for it, but I can't feel any reason for it.

If anyone is interested in trying it, I can explain it, but ideally I'd like to explain it in PM's with one group doing just the physical part and the other doing the whole thing then compare the results.

[Tedward]

If it really existed, then people would use it in K1 to knock down their opponents. The fact is, they punch and kick each other physically because there is no "chi" to use. It would be really cool to have contests with pro wrestlers throwing chairs at each other using the "force" like in Star Wars, but the fact is, as you have probably noticed, that they end up using their hands. Because the force don't exist.

Just wondering, how do we know they are not using muscles but using the farce to move fists of fury?

I'll get me coat.

[Tog_]

If it really existed, then people would use it in K1 to knock down their opponents. The fact is, they punch and kick each other physically because there is no "chi" to use. It would be really cool to have contests with pro wrestlers throwing chairs at each other using the "force" like in Star Wars, but the fact is, as you have probably noticed, that they end up using their hands. Because the force don't exist.

There is a video on Youtube that shows this, sort of. A search for "Kiai Master Video" will pull it up, but I won't link to it.

Kiaijutsu is the art of the yell. Some feel that the voice can be used to send out chi to stun an opponent. The opening of the video shows this old man waling around the room, yelling at people and they fall over. The last half is sort of like a JREF challenge/cage match between the Kiai Master and a mixed martial arts fighter. It went about like I think most of us would expect.

[Moose]

Tog, is that the $5,000 bet one? Yeah, it went about like what I expected. His followers all take dives (they're reasonably well executed dives, I must admit, roughly on par with hollywood stuntfolks), but his success ends abruptly the moment someone steps in who isn't in on it.

There was an informal test performed (with Randi's advisement, though it wasn't considered an official preliminary test) a few years ago in Indonesia. I forget the particulars (the name of the group involved, etc, although I think I remember the subject's first name was Joko or something similar), but they violated the agreed-upon protocol on almost every particular.

Randi had requested the test be done in daylight (they changed the parameters and held it at night, illuminated by car headlights). The cameraman never showed up, so what footage exists was poor. The subject was supposed to charge alone and strike the "master" with a bamboo pole. They surrounded him with adherents and had him charge in a crowd.

You can actually see one of them on the video reach out and contact the subject while he's running, who described [paraphrased] "blinding pain, then falling over". There's a strong suspicion that they used a stun gun on him.

There's another video floating around, made a few months later, where the same group accepted a challenge by an Aussie MMA guy. The test was better conducted, with adequate footage and controls. The MMA guy won the fight handily, about as quickly as Tog's footage, then concludes to the camera "they're losers". :)

If anybody wants me to try and track down links to these videos, let me know. I might be able to find the references on JREF.

[Moose]

I have some additional details. The volunteer to be the test subject was a Mr. Joko Tri. The group to be tested was the Yellow Bamboo. A search on the JREF forum on Mr Tri's name, or Yellow Bamboo, will get you plenty of threads on the subject. The still-frames of the contact appear to be no longer available.

A low res copy of the Aussie Skeptics test video can be downloaded here (http://members.iinet.net.au/~ftrust/yb/yellowbamboolores.wmv). (Because this appears to be a smaller personal site, people who contemplate a repeated viewing should right click the url and "save link as", to minimize bandwidth consumption.)

[Tog_]

Tog, is that the $5,000 bet one?
I didn't recall the amount, just that there was some of cash award involved. The thing I remember most, and the reason I didn't link it was that the Kiai Master was an older man, probably in his 60s or more that seemed to actually believe he could do this. The look on his face when he gets hit the first time is one of shock. Even the guy fighting him didn't want to hit him again. It wasn't really a fight so much as an old man get beaten up. He really didn't stand a chance. I know he was willing to be there, but it really looked like he thought he was invincible.

[Moose]

Yup. That's the same one I saw. I actually felt pity for the MMA guy as well. It's pretty clear he didn't want to injure the old guy any more than necessary.

The Aussie one is pretty easy to watch. Nobody gets hurt. Apparently Brazilian Ju-Jitsu is good that way. Far less prone to causing unintentional injuries.

A search on "Rad-Ki Challenge" pulls up a similar skeptical video of an accepted challenge, where this 19yo "Rad-Ki Kid" gets spanked because he was conned into thinking he could do Dragonball-Z style "Ki-Blasts", taught to him by his sensei "Mystery Shadow". Actual quote from the video: "Dude! You're shielding!" The kid does get hurt from the one punch he took (with a helmet on), but not injured. It's a bit easier to watch. I won't link to the site directly, because the site name is borderline, similar to Penn and Teller's show name.

[LotusExcelle]

I've determined Paul Leek's style of speech and wish to patent its name. He uses the "Lamborghini Countach Kit Car" version of text which is similar to the text used to short-hand phone messages back and forth.

[Moose]

I've determined Paul Leek's style of speech and wish to patent its name. He uses the "Lamborghini Countach Kit Car" version of text which is similar to the text used to short-hand phone messages back and forth.

I saw a Ferrari Testarossa kit (built on a firebird, I was told) for sale at a used car lot in Fredericton, NB about 10 years ago. It was there for a few months before I stopped seeing it.

[LotusExcelle]

Basically if you squint your eyes, don't get too close, and plug your ears, they look almost like the real thing.

[chrissy]

Here is a form of chi kung (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egrEfhPm5EA) it tells you the meaning of it.
My son is doing it. :D

[HenrikOlsen]

LotusExcelle, it would be a good idea to refrain from personal attacks if you want to stay here.
If you think an idea is laughable , make fun of the idea, not of the one proposing it

[jokergirl]

A lot of the process in learning a martial art (I train Aikido, which is probably a bit more focused on those things than some others are) is to completely re-learn instinctive actions and reactions upon being attacked.

For example, one principle we learn over and over again in Aikido is that you cannot push against a force stronger than you. Sounds logical, right? But whenever someone grabs you, the instinctive reaction is to jerk away, right in the direction where the opponent exerts the strongest force. The training lies in instead going in the opposite direction, following the opponent's line of force and getting him/her off balance.

With (trained to an instinct) knowledge of how balance, force vectors and anatomy work in any fight constellation, there is no need for an additional "mystical" force in my opinion.
As one of my teachers said, some call it ki, some call it vectors, some call it applied anatomy. It doesn't matter.

Still, to be able to hadoken would be cool. :lol:

;)

[Tog_]

A lot of the process in learning a martial art (I train Aikido, which is probably a bit more focused on those things than some others are) is to completely re-learn instinctive actions and reactions upon being attacked.

<snip>

As one of my teachers said, some call it ki, some call it vectors, some call it applied anatomy. It doesn't matter.

Still, to be able to hadoken would be cool. :lol:

;)
Totally agree with all.

Aikido isn't alone in this, either. In Wing Chun, and Jeet Kune Do, there a great deal of emphasis placed on simultaneous actions. If Bob tried to hit Jill, she will block with the hand closest to her body while striking the part of his body he left open to attack with the hand closest to his. Nearly every block will include a strike with the other hand.

American Kenpo (as oposed t Kaji-kempo) does something similar. Against a right punch, Jill might choose to block it with a right "inward block". This would be done in most karate styles by passing the right arm across the body to deflect the strike away. This is normally folloed up by a strike with the opposite hand. In Kenpo, the block will take a circular route, passing across the chest to the offending arm, but instead of returning to it's strating point, it will circle away from the defender and turn into a backfist strike.

In Tae Kwan-do and not forms of karate, there is time between the block and the counterstrike. In many of the wushu forms, and Kenpo, the block and strike are one fluid motion. That has to be drilled repeatedly, just like the way Aikido takes the counterintuitive first step of helping the attack, rather than resisting it.

My first Aikido instructor had an unorthodox approach to things. While working on some balance exercises, he would pinch me from time to time. Usually on the ribs. When I asked him about it, he claimed he was not aware that he was doing it. He said it was a way to "lead the mind". If my focus is on my balance and my arm that is involved in the pushing drill, I do fairly well (for my second class). Whe he pinches me, my focus shifts to a "what was that" mode, and my balance suffers.

That book I mentioned above talks about this as well. It uses taking a toy from a baby as the example. A baby that really wants to keep a toy is very focused on holding onto it. His "chi" is concentrated on his hand, and that allows him to hold on very tightly. By blowing lightly on the back of his neck, the baby's "chi" will shift, his focus will break down, and you can grab the toy with ease.

It works on whippets too, but you have to really be fast.:)