Terra-cotta Hollow Kissing Animals?

[megrfl]

Hi All.

I purchased the below item at an auction. It was within an assortment of early American glassware. All items looked like the contents of a curio cabinet/someone's collection. I have researched this item on the web and I have found very little, a few things were "close", but nothing I felt confident about. It seems very familiar, but honestly I don't have any idea what it is supposed to represent (what animal), or if it's old (could be something from Target), does anybody have any idea?

I'd appreciate any suggestions.

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/3794/picture051ud9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/5905/picture052qq1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Whirlpool]

could be CATS ?

:think:

cats like to kiss and cuddle.

[Jeff Root]

What is the purpose of the holes? That seems a likely clue.

The way the (arms and) legs are connected seems most unusual. That
should lead to something. Also the very short tails. Not usual for cats.

(I was attracted by the thread title because just half an hour ago I started
typing in a post that an animal (a goose) kissed me, but then changed it
because I remembered that it necked with me rather than kissed me. It was
trained to lay its head against a person when held.)

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Jeff Root]

People who live near archeological sites that are tourist attractions sometimes
make things in the style of the ancient people and try to sell them to tourists
as genuine ancient artifacts that they just found.

Although, come to think of it, the object looks mesoamerican, and there were
no domesticated cats in pre-Columbian America...

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[megrfl]

could be CATS ?

:think:

cats like to kiss and cuddle.

I thought that too.

[Neverfly]

Look like bears to me.

[megrfl]

What is the purpose of the holes? That seems a likely clue.

The way the (arms and) legs are connected seems most unusual. That
should lead to something. Also the very short tails. Not usual for cats.

Yes, the holes? They don't connect from inside. In other words you couldn't run a string in one hole and come out the other without having to go up and into the arms and then down and out the other hole.

There are no seams, so it would be a mold, right?
In addition, the carvings would be done after it was molded. I really don't understand how it was done.

Thanks for your insight. I am very interested in knowing what kind of animal they are as well.

(I was attracted by the thread title because just half an hour ago I started
typing in a post that an animal (a goose) kissed me, but then changed it
because I remembered that it necked with me rather than kissed me. It was
trained to lay its head against a person when held.)

:)

[Whirlpool]

well.. you're welcome meg ..

even I didnt help much.. <shrug>

[megrfl]

Look like bears to me.

Ya, that was my other thought too. It's driving me crazy not knowing anything about this little "statue". Usually I can get an answer pretty quick (about 4 hrs on the internets :) (time flys when you are on the computer) or I hit the library), not so easy with this one.

[megrfl]

well.. you're welcome meg ..

even I didnt help much.. <shrug>

Actually, the reason I bought it is that it reminded me of my kitten. We are very close, she is sleeping on my chest right now. She was a rescue from tropical storm Faye and she is such a scaredy cat. I adore her.

So you confirmed my initial reaction to it.

Thanks :)

[megrfl]

People who live near archeological sites that are tourist attractions sometimes
make things in the style of the ancient people and try to sell them to tourists
as genuine ancient artifacts that they just found.

Although, come to think of it, the object looks mesoamerican, and there were
no domesticated cats in pre-Columbian America...

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

Alright, that gives me some other search ideas.

[BigDon]

The holes are so the piece can be fired without exploding

[BigDon]

Those are spectacled bears . look at the left one's face.

http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&q=spectacled+bear&btnG=Search+Images then look at these images

[novaderrik]

i bet they'd be able to tell you what it is on Antiques Roadshow..

[Jeff Root]

Don,

The side photographed appears to be the "front" of the sculpture.
Why would the holes be placed there rather than a less visible location?

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[BigDon]

I don't know how to answer that Jeff. I've seen other pieces like it. Maybe they had a different esthetic?

[PraedSt]

How large is it Meg? Any chance of some scale? I know you said curio-cabinet, but I've seen some biggies in my time..
As for the holes, I was thinking joss-sticks. Any equivalent to joss-sticks in the New World? But then again, as Jeff says, holes are in an odd place. Hmm...

[BigDon]

I would say they are fighting.

Those are claw marks. I'm trying to figure out what the specticled bear is attacking.

[sarongsong]

...a few things were "close", but nothing I felt confident about. It seems very familiar..."Close" Dep't---or not, and oddly familiar:February 12, 2008
...old [solid] terracotta figurine...dating back to 3200 B.C is the only Maltese prehistoric presentation of an embracing couple. The minute figurine has some fine incisions representing long hair on both figures...
Times of Malta (http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20080212/local/valentines-day-special-exhibition-by-heritage-malta)

[Jeff Root]

Let's see the underside. Find out if they work on AC or DC.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Gruesome]

Dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

[megrfl]

How large is it Meg? Any chance of some scale? I know you said curio-cabinet, but I've seen some biggies in my time..
As for the holes, I was thinking joss-sticks. Any equivalent to joss-sticks in the New World? But then again, as Jeff says, holes are in an odd place. Hmm...

Hi Praed,
6.5 inches tall and 6 inches wide (tail to tail). What are joss-sticks? The holes are in an odd place, and there are no other holes, just in the front. :confused:

[megrfl]

Don,

The side photographed appears to be the "front" of the sculpture.
Why would the holes be placed there rather than a less visible location?

Exactly. Maybe it was adorned with something originally.

[megrfl]

Those are spectacled bears . look at the left one's face.

http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&q=spectacled+bear&btnG=Search+Images then look at these images

Those are some neat bears. :)

After doing some further research last night, I thought maybe they were meerkats, they are very affectionate, turned up nothing tho.

[megrfl]

I would say they are fighting.

Those are claw marks. I'm trying to figure out what the specticled bear is attacking.

:lol:

[megrfl]

Let's see the underside. Find out if they work on AC or DC.

I could add little lasers to come out of the holes. :)

The underside:

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/7181/picture054bq2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


It is one continuous form.

[megrfl]

i bet they'd be able to tell you what it is on Antiques Roadshow..

Ya, they were in the area recently, but I didn't own it at that time. :sad:

[BigDon]

And specticled bears do live in south America. So that puts it further South into Inca territory.

[megrfl]

And specticled bears do live in south America. So that puts it further South into Inca territory.

Yes!! Inca. My google search was "Inca clay animal statue". They are Mayan Dancing Dogs. Never thought they were dogs, mine is definitely different, not as modern maybe.

So... Do I have an earlier piece or a reproduction of these reproductions?

http://www.prometheus-imports.com/precolumbian.htm

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9328/dancingdogszh6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Thanks BigDon and thanks to everyone for your help and interest. :)

[Jeff Root]

I didn't have any particular expectations about what might be on the
bottom, but I might have guessed that the color would be more like the
gray on the animal's bellies. Instead it is the same brown as on the
outer surface, which would seem to be be a color painted on, after the
clay had partially hardened but before the lines were scratched and
before the final firing.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Jeff Root]

Wow, that's fantastic! Maya dancing dogs, or maybe kitties in your case.
I never expected to get such a definite ID anywhere near so quickly!
That was good work!

That just leaves me wondering why they put the holes where they did.
Probably because that's where the person before them put the holes...

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[megrfl]

I didn't have any particular expectations about what might be on the
bottom, but I might have guessed that the color would be more like the
gray on the animal's bellies. Instead it is the same brown as on the
outer surface, which would seem to be be a color painted on, after the
clay had partially hardened but before the lines were scratched and
before the final firing.

I have worked with clay (solid forms only), we would get the clay (gray) from the creek banks. I love working with it and hope to purchase a kiln soon. It is one of my favorite art forms. It is interesting to imagine how the older pieces were completed, i.e. the carvings and etc. :)

Thanks Jeff.

[megrfl]

Wow, that's fantastic! Maya dancing dogs, or maybe kitties in your case.
I never expected to get such a definite ID anywhere near so quickly!
That was good work!

Thanks to you guys.

That just leaves me wondering why they put the holes where they did.
Probably because that's where the person before them put the holes...

Yep, that's what I thought. You think they would be on the back or somewhere inconspicuous.

[BigDon]

Hey Meg! I hope my wrong guesses at least helped!

:)

[megrfl]

Hey Meg! I hope my wrong guesses at least helped!

:)

They sure did. :)

[PraedSt]

Yes!! Inca. My google search was "Inca clay animal statue". They are Mayan Dancing Dogs...

... What are joss-sticks? The holes are in an odd place, and there are no other holes, just in the front. :confused:

Good detective work Meg. Joss-sticks: you might call them incense sticks in the States? Joss-stick holders come in all sorts of weird and wonderful shapes. But the holes are usually at the top of the piece.


http://www.eldreds.com/thumbnails/16jan06/15158.jpg

[megrfl]

Good detective work Meg. Joss-sticks: you might call them incense sticks in the States? Joss-stick holders come in all sorts of weird and wonderful shapes. But the holes are usually at the top of the piece.

Couldn't have done it without baut. :)

Where are you that they call them Joss-sticks? Is that the UK?

[BigDon]

Incense sticks

[BigDon]

Joss = Luck

[PraedSt]

Joss = Luck

I'm impressed :)

Where are you that they call them Joss-sticks? Is that the UK?

Yeah, I first heard the English word in the UK. But seeing as it's one of those Asian words that have been adopted, I'm guessing the Commonwealth countries? Incense will do just fine though... :)

[HenrikOlsen]

Where are you that they call them Joss-sticks? Is that the UK?
Some place with a sizeable Chinese immigrant presence I'd guess.

[BigDon]

I'm impressed :)



Yeah, I first heard the English word in the UK. But seeing as it's one of those Asian words that have been adopted, I'm guessing the Commonwealth countries? Incense will do just fine though... :)

Look where I live! I can't swing a cat without knocking over an Asian or two.

[sarongsong]

:lol: ---have you ever actually resided in SF?

[PraedSt]

Look where I live! I can't swing a cat without knocking over an Asian or two.

Hehe. Buuut...the US is still part of the Empire, didn't you know?

Revocation of independence (http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/revocation.asp)"To the citizens of the United States of America, in the light of your failure to elect a competent President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective today.
Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories.
Except Utah, which she does not fancy.
A questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed. To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:
1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. Then look up "aluminium." Check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it.[...]
16. Tax collectors from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all revenues due (backdated to 1776).
Thank you for your co-operation.":D There's an American rebuttal to this, equally funny. Can't find it right now...

[megrfl]

Hehe. Buuut...the US is still part of the Empire, didn't you know?

Their way:
Aluminium - Al-yah-min-ee-um

My way:
Aluminium - Ah-loom-min-numb

Ha, totally different. :)

[mahesh]

...Where are you that they call them Joss-sticks? Is that the UK?

If I may, 'incense' sticks, thanks B D, is the correct reference for those holes in your figurine, megrfl. if that is actually the purpose of the said cavities.

as far as i know:

For an incense stick, the ingredients (herbs / oils etc) are pasted along a 'thin reed' (!) for a spine as it were. about eight inches, lengthwise. and perhaps a millimeter diam. (so those holes look about right). kebab style. pardon me, i have no idea, how they are manufactured. but you get the picture of the end result!

For a what I'd call a joss stick, i've never seen an internal spine. and the size, normally is that of a little finger/pinky. cosistency of, say, a christmas cake. 'just so' moisture. usually plonked (not unceremoniously) on its end and lit.

Both, predominantly, used in religious ceremonies etc., in the Orient.
In my opinion, the best and really fragrant ones, using high quality herbs and oils, are made in India. And particularly in southern India.
as traditionally there's been a broad manufacturing base there.

About ten or so years ago, I came across a bunch, the likes of which I've never seen anywhere else. specially made at / for an ashram. discontinued making them. they were gorgeous. i can, some times, recall the sensation of fragrance, when i tickle the memories of my time there.

....
Yeah, I first heard the English word in the UK. But seeing as it's one of those Asian words that have been adopted, I'm guessing the Commonwealth countries? Incense will do just fine though... :)

What's 'Asian' about 'joss' Praed? and ....
China, Japan, Indonesia, Cambodia Thailand.....part of Commonwealth?

[megrfl]

If I may, 'incense' sticks, thanks B D, is the correct reference for those holes in your figurine, megrfl. if that is actually the purpose of the said cavities.

We aren't sure, but it has been suggested.

as far as i know:

For an incense stick, the ingredients (herbs / oils etc) are pasted along a 'thin reed' (!) for a spine as it were. about eight inches, lengthwise. and perhaps a millimeter diam. (so those holes look about right).

I was thinking of the more short and stout incense sticks, but the kind you have decribed would work. :)

Thanks for the info.

[PraedSt]

What's 'Asian' about 'joss' Praed? and ....
China, Japan, Indonesia, Cambodia Thailand.....part of Commonwealth?

'Joss' is from China I think. Or maybe even Indo-European if you go further back, as India has a similar 'Josh'. Any linguists here on BAUT? (no Bond jokes please).

Those countries...part of Commonwealth; no. Joss-stick is an English word, and as such might be used instead of incense stick in Commonwealth countries, or in special places such as Hong Kong.
The other Asian countries you mention picked up most of their English from the Americans, during and after WW2, so they probably use incense stick, or maybe both. But Americans tend to be a bit funny when it comes to language (http://www.bautforum.com/1357104-post45.html). :whistle:

[Jeff Root]

'Joss' is from China I think. Or maybe even Indo-European if you go
further back, as India has a similar 'Josh'.

Joss-stick is an English word,
I'd say that "joss stick" is an English term. "Joss", as you say, may be
derived from Chinese (but see below), while "stick" is an English word.
"Joss" is in my 1964 Webster's New World Dictionary of the American
Languge, both as a word and in the terms "joss house" and "joss stick":

joss [Pidgin English; variation of Portuguese deos, Latin deus,
a god], a figure of a Chinese god; Chinese idol.

joss house, a Chinese temple.

joss stick, a thin stick of dried paste made of fragrant wood dust,
burned by the Chinese as incense.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[PraedSt]

I'd say that "joss stick" is an English term.

I'll be magnanimous and ignore this nit-pick. :)


joss [Pidgin English; variation of Portuguese deos, Latin deus,
a god], a figure of a Chinese god; Chinese idol.

So what have we here? Hmm. Originates in China. First spreads West along the Silk Route, followed by a later migration on European galleons? Or maybe just the Silk route and the Chinese and Latin words collapsed into one? Or maybe the root originated in the Caucuses and went left and right simultaneously?

I'm taking this too seriously. :doh: Fun though. I like my anthropology...

[BigDon]

I do get access to quality incence and teas.

Always a plus in life to know that if I want to, I can spent several hundred dollars an ounce for hand crafted teas that you don't even smoke! (Well some you do, but not like that.)

[Maha Vailo]

I say you should take that sculpture to a local museum and see if anyone there can check its authenticity. If it is indeed a pre-Columbian artifact, the right thing to do would be to donate it to said museum.

- Maha Vailo

[PraedSt]

If it is indeed a pre-Columbian artifact, the right thing to do would be to donate it to said museum.

I don't know the legality of this, but my first thought is 'what rubbish'.

p.s. or indeed what Meg wants.

[HenrikOlsen]

Apart from the interesting divertionary discussion of incense, I agree with BD that the main practical reason for the holes is to allow hot air and steam to leave the cavity to prevent the piece from breaking during firing.

The position of the holes can have multiple reasons, including practical use such as incense holders, an inability to put them at the bottom because of the construction of the kiln or simply that's just where the potter felt like putting them since the aesthetic of the time didn't dictate that details of construction should be hidden as ours do.

Trying to find a reason for not putting the holes in the bottom is interpreting the piece based on values that may not have been in vogue when it was made.

[megrfl]

I say you should take that sculpture to a local museum and see if anyone there can check its authenticity. If it is indeed a pre-Columbian artifact, the right thing to do would be to donate it to said museum.

- Maha Vailo

I don't think it is an artifact.

According to this website the Colima Dancing Dogs are a dime a dozen, however, I have not seen an exact replica of mine yet. I would like to see the original Mayan Dancing Dogs.

http://www.gomanzanillo.com/features/dog/index.htm

On a personal note, I bought this at auction and I was the only person to bid. I was attracted to it immediately (it stood out like a sore thumb amid the fine glassware.) They have such sweet faces and I appreciate the workmanship, thus, I am not so willing to give them up.

Now if the price was right?? Just kidding, Just kidding. Gosh! :)

Honestly, I don't think they hold any value, but I am not dissappointed, I bought it because I like it.

[megrfl]

Trying to find a reason for not putting the holes in the bottom is interpreting the piece based on values that may not have been in vogue when it was made.

Well said.

Thanks :)

[megrfl]

I don't know the legality of this, but my first thought is 'what rubbish'.

p.s. or indeed what Meg wants.

:)