Vote!

[Rift]

To all the USA citizens on the board...

GO VOTE TODAY

I don't care if you're Republican, Democratic, Libertarian, Communist,
or Bull Moose- VOTE

I don't care if you're going to vote for Obama, McCain, Nader or write
in Snoopy and Woodstock- VOTE


I've had family members that have fought and or died in every major
and most minor wars since the French Indian War for you to have the
privilege. A great uncle was killed during world war II leaving my great aunt to raise her young daughter alone. A distant cousin was recently killed in Iraq. VOTE

A great many people on this planet don't have that privilege so VOTE.

[BigDon]

Well, okaaaay, if you say so.

[Rift]

~sighs~

Why do I even bother sometimes?

Write in George Carlin BigDon, he was against voting AND dead, can't hardly go wrong there.

[geonuc]

I think the turnout will be pretty decent this time around.

[jt-3d]

I myself went last Tuesday. Vote early, vote often.

[PraedSt]

I myself went last Tuesday. Vote early, vote often.

Vote often?

[jt-3d]

Should have used quotes and a smilie I suppose. I assumed everybody had heard it. (http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~geoff/classes/hmc.cs070.200401/votequote.html) I tend to assume a lot. :)

[PraedSt]

Ahh...all clear now. Sorry about that, my bad. :)

[Rift]

I almost put the 'vote early, vote often' in my original post. lol I thought everyone had heard it too.

As for not Voting, Australia has mandatory voting which just seems wrong to me. You do have the choice of not voting, that's just as much your right to not vote as you do to vote. I don't understand that point of view and I have voted every presidential election since i turned 18 and most congress and local races, but forcing someone to vote, ironically, seems undemocratic to me.

[PraedSt]

Some countries declare a public holiday to get out the vote. And I know of at least one, India, that does that and bans alcohol sales. Now that's cruel.

[Moose]

I almost put the 'vote early, vote often' in my original post. lol I thought everyone had heard it too.

Heh, yeah, that's an old joke. A classic, though.

[BigDon]

I am now using BiGDon's tried and true method of voting for Presidents.

I'm on my third ale.

It's six am

I am so gonna change history.

Soon as I finish this six pack.

[Swift]

Like Rift said, go do your duty as citizens.

And all you BAUTers who live in other countries, I don't want to hear any excuses like "I'm not a US citizen". ;)

Polling places in Ohio open at 6:30. I was in line at 6:20 with about 50 people - first time I've ever seen a line before it opened that long. Took me about 45 minutes for the whole thing, and we have a long ballot this year (19 issues, 3 tax levies, a bunch of judges, etc.).

[BigDon]

#4

[NEOWatcher]

Some countries declare a public holiday to get out the vote. And I know of at least one, India, that does that and bans alcohol sales. Now that's cruel.

Yes; Cruel, but we do have locations where both hold true. Mostly by state.

Here's a chart for closed bars (http://www.uselections.com/faq_electday.htm#4). There used to be many more (Ohio used to at one time)
Here's a chart for state holidays (http://www.uselections.com/faq_electday.htm#7).

I was lucky this morning. The polls were well prepared, and although the line was about 300 feet long when I got there, it moved fast and I was done within a half hour.

[BigDon]

Still working #4

[KaiYeves]

Of course you should vote! The astronauts are doing it. (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/expeditions/expedition18/vote.html)

[BigDon]

Miss Yeves, why aren't you in school?

Numero sinko

[KaiYeves]

We have election day off.

[BigDon]

You live in the U.S. of A?


Nursring number five.

[Salty]

I voted early. I think it's wonderful, that we don't even have to be a member of an existing political party, to vote.

[Fazor]

We have election day off.

We were talking about this last night because my niece gets the day off (she's only in preschool but they're closed anytime the city schools are closed). The school has always been a polling place, but we never got the day off for it. They just closed part of the building from the students and went along their merry way.

And WE had to walk to school! ... uphill both ways! ... barefoot! ... during blizzards!

...yeah, couldn't help myself.

[BigDon]

Dowsn't that rock?

I quit mine after nine 11

[Salty]

I agree with you, Rift, there's no freedom of choosing not to vote.

However, I believe that doing this or not doing that, to "send a message" undermines the basic purpose of an election: WIN!

[Jim]

I don't care if you're going to vote for Obama, McCain, Nader or write in Snoopy and Woodstock- VOTE

(Smacks forehead.) Why didn't I think of that?

I arrived 20 minutes before the polls opened; there was already a line. Once the doors opened, it took 10 minutes to vote.

The way the polls work in Texas, you show your voter's registration or other ID and the poll worker looks you up in The Big Book of Registered Voters. If you are listed, you sign your signature on a line next to your name, and the poll worker writes your name on a separate list.

That's maybe 500+ names in a day; heck, she was already up to a dozen when I got there. My hand cramps up just thinking about it.

Three cheers to the poll workers, and may their carpal tunnel syndrome be fleeting.

[BigDon]

Big #6!

This is based on the Norse "thing". It works 'cause no inhibtions.

[Swift]

Big #6!

This is based on the Norse "thing". It works 'cause no inhibtions.
As part of the Norse tradition should we also put the loser in a boat, set it on fire, and push it out to sea? :shifty:

[BigDon]

No dude! Be real!

[NEOWatcher]

Big #6!
And your typing seems to have improved a bit since #5. :think:

You may be on to something.

[BigDon]

number 7 is violating the laws of ale physics, "(or I thought ahead)

[BigDon]

Okey Dokey! A shower, shave then a two mile walk with two major hills of a least 400 to 600 foot height differwnces thingy.

see you all tonight.

[Chuck]

Ok, I'm convinced. Where do I go to register?

[NEOWatcher]

[side rant on this subject...]
Is there anything else going on in the world?
If so, it seems as though CNN doesn't care. They have only a couple of other story links on thier page, got rid of the catagorized news, and when you click on "more news" there's an error.

I know this is important news and worthy of extended reporting, but jeez, life still goes on.

And, Developing story. "Long line in OK city". Live video no dialog. Yeah, so what, its the same length as the one I stood in this morning.

Ok; I got that off my chest. Continue on...

Added:
DRY YOURSELF OFF FIRST. (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/11/04/vachesapeake-more-wet-ballots/)
Interesting situation for those waiting in the rain. They are dripping on thier ballots, and the ballot won't scan.

[Fazor]

NEO: I think you and I will have to dig deep to get the good bad news today. But I guess they're giving people what they want--Tara got up an hour earlier than usual today and immediately turned to the news for "election coverage". I know she's anxious about who will win; but we won't start to see any meaningfull numbers until this evening.

[HenrikOlsen]

I voted early. I think it's wonderful, that we don't even have to be a member of an existing political party, to vote.
I tend to prefer our system where one doesn't have to register to vote as that's automatically part of being a citizen, and there's no way to have the right to vote taken away apart from leaving the country.

[NEOWatcher]

NEO: I think you and I will have to dig deep to get the good bad news today...
Well; I've only been to 2 others so far today (USAT/MSNBC), and they don't seem to have that issue. Sure; it's a highlight there, but they've kept their format, so you don't have to dig.
So; I limit my rant to CNN so far.

I know she's anxious about who will win; but we won't start to see any meaningfull numbers until this evening.
It depends on how much trust you put in the reporter's predictions and polls.
If most of the readers likes the prediction, then it's meaningful. (Oops, there I go again, thinking like an editor)

[sarongsong]

...GO VOTE TODAY...VOTE...~sighs~ Why do I even bother sometimes?...You do have the choice of not voting, that's just as much your right to not vote as you do to vote...forcing someone to vote, ironically, seems undemocratic to me...Well, make up my mind! :rolleyes:

[Gillianren]

I had a voting party Sunday night, where a handful of us got together over homemade soup and the voters' handbook, and we all voted, then a bunch of us walked over to the courthouse and dropped ballots in the drop box. All of Thurston County votes by mail, you see, so we're already done. We've got a fairly close gubenatorial race, too, and a couple of pretty intense initiatives.

I have also gotten several people, including one of the ones at my party, to vote at all. I feel very proud about that.

[NEOWatcher]

Okey Dokey! A shower, shave then a two mile walk with two major hills of a least 400 to 600 foot height differwnces thingy.

Thank goodness you're walking after your prep work.

Some, might not be so responsible.
Accidents Increase On Election Day (http://www.newsnet5.com/politics/17591393/detail.html)
The authors of the study speculate that there were many factors that contributed to the problem. This includes drivers being more distracted than normal. People may be driving along unfamiliar streets as they go to voting booths, and some impaired drivers, such as the elderly, may be on the road in greater numbers.
I would probably add, those who are in a rush to either get to work after voting, or rushing to get to the polls and home.

[mugaliens]

~sighs~

Why do I even bother sometimes?

Because you care. Because you understand both civic duty and civic responsibility. Because protecting the rights we have as citizens cost you the lives of both friends and family, and you feel that if it's worth that much to preserve, it's worth exercising it to ensure it doesn't decay due to apathy.

Because it's the right thing to do.

[Fazor]

I would probably add, those who are in a rush to either get to work after voting, or rushing to get to the polls and home.

... and the obvious fact that you have a huge increase in traffic to specific conjested areas. More cars in close proximity should equal more accidents.

[NEOWatcher]

... and the obvious fact that you have a huge increase in traffic to specific conjested areas. More cars in close proximity should equal more accidents.
I would agree with that if it were accidents across the board, but the article was quoting an increase in deaths. I would think that the polling locations would be in areas, and congested in a way that would keep the accidents from being fatal. On the other hand, they don't specify if there is a correlation to pedestrian accidents either.

[Swift]

Because you care. Because you understand both civic duty and civic responsibility. Because protecting the rights we have as citizens cost you the lives of both friends and family, and you feel that if it's worth that much to preserve, it's worth exercising it to ensure it doesn't decay due to apathy.

Because it's the right thing to do.
Nice mugs (and Rift for starting the thread). :clap:

This past Sunday, on the CBS program "Sunday Morning", there was a segment on patriotism, what it means to various people, etc. There was a survey of Americans that they discussed on "Do you think _______ (various activities) is patriotic?". IIRC, 87% said serving in the military was patriotic, for example. But even more interesting to me, 95% said that voting was patriotic!

[peteshimmon]

You people having an election?

[NEOWatcher]

You people having an election?
Considering it started about a year or 2 ago, I can understand how it has escaped your memory.

[PraedSt]

Heh. I think that was British humour Neo. You have to be a Brit, or truly evil, to spot it.

[tdvance]

(Smacks forehead.) Why didn't I think of that?

I arrived 20 minutes before the polls opened; there was already a line. Once the doors opened, it took 10 minutes to vote.

The way the polls work in Texas, you show your voter's registration or other ID and the poll worker looks you up in The Big Book of Registered Voters. If you are listed, you sign your signature on a line next to your name, and the poll worker writes your name on a separate list.

That's maybe 500+ names in a day; heck, she was already up to a dozen when I got there. My hand cramps up just thinking about it.

Three cheers to the poll workers, and may their carpal tunnel syndrome be fleeting.

I got to the polling place at 7am, which is when it opened. There was already a long line (and some others had thought to bring chairs with them, not me)--and the parking lot of the school was full and so were the streets in the area, so I parked several blocks away. It took me till 9am to get through the line and vote.

Of course, I could have voted as anybody--all I needed were a first and last name, and corresponding address. No ID check. But I decided to vote as myself just for fun.

It was a touch screen--every time I pressed my choice, the other one lit up and a voice said "2 votes for... 3 votes for..." but I had only meant one of my votes for him!

[xCygon]

I Voted :)

First Time Voter, yay.

[Swift]

It was a touch screen--every time I pressed my choice, the other one lit up and a voice said "2 votes for... 3 votes for..." but I had only meant one of my votes for him!
You're lucky you didn't get sucked into the machine like Homer. ;)

[Disinfo Agent]

Yes, vote. The fate of the galaxy is in your hands. (http://www.aintitcool.com/node/38981)

[KaiYeves]

You live in the U.S. of A?
Yes, although I'm an internationalist.

I Voted

First Time Voter, yay.
Good for you, xCygon! I'll be able to vote in the next one!

[SeanF]

I tend to prefer our system where one doesn't have to register to vote as that's automatically part of being a citizen, and there's no way to have the right to vote taken away apart from leaving the country.
How do they know you're a citizen? :)

[Paracelsus]

Just voted an hour ago. The line was non-existent at my polling place, but the lines were ridiculous this morning and probably will be again this evening.

[Moose]

How do they know you're a citizen? :)

Well, Canada lets you auto-register for all (relevant) elections for that year by ticking a consent box on your tax return. Revcan (now called CRA) then passes along your biographical information to Elections Canada.

I would imagine Denmark does something similar.

[jfribrg]

They say that if you don't vote, then don't complain. I voted, so for the next 4 years I have free license to rant about everything wrong with the US government (and anything else that I may feel like complaining about). I got to the poll about 15 minutes before it opened. It took a few minutes for the folks in front of me to finish, then it was my turn.

I voted for <bad politician removed>.

[geonuc]

I'll be able to vote in the next one!
Cool. You'll just make it ... before the world comes to an end the following month.

[megrfl]

Just voted an hour ago. The line was non-existent at my polling place, but the lines were ridiculous this morning and probably will be again this evening.

Same here, except my hour ago made it 3:50ish, no lines at all.

I should report, however, a slight disturbance in the middle of the road in front of the building. Traffic was stopped in both directions to safely coax a turtle across the street. Not sure if it was a registered voter, but he did seem undecided in which direction he wanted to go. :)

[SeanF]

Well, Canada lets you auto-register for all (relevant) elections for that year by ticking a consent box on your tax return. Revcan (now called CRA) then passes along your biographical information to Elections Canada.

I would imagine Denmark does something similar.
So you do have to register, and in fact you have to reregister every year - granted, the registration process is very easy.

But does that mean that only those who pay taxes can vote? Or do you have to fill out a tax return even if you don't have a job?

At any rate, judging by Henrik's statement, that's not what Denmark does. :)

BTW, I voted about 11:00 this morning. I was the 498th voter at my polling place, but as this is the first year I've lived in this district, I have no idea how that compares to previous elections. No line at all when I was there.

[Doodler]

Managed to get in and out of the voting booth in under 20 minutes.

Maryland had a couple of other questions, one was to allow early voting (which I was fine with) and the other was to allow slot gambling in Maryland to fund public schools (which I'm not fine with). Personally, I'd like to see parents of school age children give up their income tax deductions if they want their whelps to have better training grounds.

[Moose]

So you do have to register, and in fact you have to reregister every year - granted, the registration process is very easy.

The re-consent is used to refresh Election Canada's database. Elections Canada doesn't purge their database yearly, AFAIK. Technically, once you've registered, you're registered forever. The refreshes are for tracking moves and the like.

But does that mean that only those who pay taxes can vote? Or do you have to fill out a tax return even if you don't have a job?

No, you can register by contacting the polling officer (all households get a card with instructions on how to do that), Elections Canada itself, or by registering at the poll itself, immediately before voting.

The registration is mostly about accounting and making sure you have the right ballot. All Canadians have the right to vote, and Elections Canada go over and above to guarantee that right. I've even voted from a hospital bed once. It seems if you can't go to them, they're happy to come to you. :)

[KaiYeves]

Cool. You'll just make it ... before the world comes to an end the following month.
Depends on who gets elected.

[mugaliens]

Okey Dokey! A shower, shave then a two mile walk with two major hills of a least 400 to 600 foot height differwnces thingy.

see you all tonight.

Hey, Don - how did the vote, er, turn out?

[mugaliens]

Well, Canada lets you auto-register for all (relevant) elections for that year by ticking a consent box on your tax return. Revcan (now called CRA) then passes along your biographical information to Elections Canada.

That's an exceptionally crafty approach. My hat's off to our Northern neighbors for perfecting a practice for the Electronic age while we're still stuck in the Paper age.

[Chuck]

Everyone I know was voting but I'm too much of a maverick to go along with the crowd.

[ravens_cry]

A much more interesting election campaign then us 'northern neighbors' had. Most certainly historic no matter who ends of winning it.
Kudos to all sides, and all you yanks who voted.

[mahesh]

...dreams and mountains tops...these are a few of my favourite things...

[Chuck]

Barack Obama will be the first U.S. president to be younger than me. That must be some sort of aging signpost.

[Jens]

I think it's wonderful, that we don't even have to be a member of an existing political party, to vote.

What? :confused:

[HenrikOlsen]

How do they know you're a citizen? :)
We're registered in the Civil Registration System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Det_Centrale_Personregister) at birth, it's a national registry which keeps track of everyone for tax, voting, birth, death and similar purposes.
Think census data kept updated essentially real time.

At any rate, judging by Henrik's statement, that's not what Denmark does. :)
Quite right, voter data are simply pulled from the register.

[Van Rijn]

What? :confused:

Well, in California (http://www.calvoter.org/voter/politics/parties.html):

There are seven qualified political parties in California. When registering to vote, you can choose one of these parties, designate a party that is not yet officially qualified, or decline to affiliate with any party.

You don't have to choose a party, or one of the current big two. It can limit you in primary elections for parties (depending on their policies), but not in general elections.

[Jens]

You don't have to choose a party, or one of the current big two. It can limit you in primary elections for parties (depending on their policies), but not in general elections.

I wasn't surprised that it is true; I was surprised that anybody would assume that there would be a requirement to be a member of a party. It may happen, but I find it hard to imagine a democracy not allowing people who are not members of political parties to vote. Maybe there are places like that, but most, like China or Vietnam, are not what I would consider democracies. AFAIK, the United States is somewhat strange in making it easy to be a member of a political party in the first place. In all the countries I know anything about, being a member of a party is an expensive proposition, so the vast majority of voters are technically independents. And they can't vote in primaries, because there are no primaries. The party lists are chosen by the party leaders.

[SeanF]

The re-consent is used to refresh Election Canada's database. Elections Canada doesn't purge their database yearly, AFAIK. Technically, once you've registered, you're registered forever. The refreshes are for tracking moves and the like.
Got it. The US doesn't have voter registrations on our income tax forms, but that is because (like I say to Henrik below), the federal government doesn't administer any elections. Perhaps some of those states with state income taxes do let you register to vote on your tax form - my state doesn't have one.

The US does, however, have voter registration on driver's license forms, so you can register (or reregister) when you get or renew your license.

No, you can register by contacting the polling officer (all households get a card with instructions on how to do that), Elections Canada itself, or by registering at the poll itself, immediately before voting.

The registration is mostly about accounting and making sure you have the right ballot. All Canadians have the right to vote, and Elections Canada go over and above to guarantee that right. I've even voted from a hospital bed once. It seems if you can't go to them, they're happy to come to you. :)
Oh, in the US they'll get a ballot to those who are hospitalized or unable to make it to the polls, as well. :) We generally do, however, require registration some length of time prior to the election. How else do you prevent fraudulant registrants (ie, non-citizens or somebody who has already voted elsewhere) from voting?

We're registered in the Civil Registration System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Det_Centrale_Personregister) at birth, it's a national registry which keeps track of everyone for tax, voting, birth, death and similar purposes.
Think census data kept updated essentially real time.
Ah, OK. Well, the US doesn't have a national citizen database, so that's why we have a separate voter database (I suppose Social Security would probably qualify for that by this point, though).

Also, perhaps more importantly, voting is done on a local level. Bottom line is that nobody outside of my state (at the most) needs to know I'm a voter because they're the ones that administer the elections I vote in.

[Moose]

Oh, in the US they'll get a ballot to those who are hospitalized or unable to make it to the polls, as well. :) We generally do, however, require registration some length of time prior to the election. How else do you prevent fraudulant registrants (ie, non-citizens or somebody who has already voted elsewhere) from voting?

It's not especially difficult.

The basic idea is that you get sent a voter card with your name, address, and polling station on it. It not only tells you where to go, but it's a "one card, one voter" situation.

Without the card, they go by the address on your ID(s) or utility bills. If you live at 123 Some Rd in Whereton, you're only eligible to vote at New Province's poll 62 using their (uniquely stamped) ballot, or beforehand by absentee ballot if you're going to be elsewhere.

So if duplicate ballots start showing up at a poll, or ballots that were not officially distributed, or ballots that were never printed, or you appear in the voters list multiple times, or there are more ballots than people who actually voted, or more voters than ballots, then Elections Canada knows there were shenanigans and can investigate with all the fury at their disposal. The fundamental idea is as much tamper-evidence as tamper-proofing the elections. They've done an admirable job of both.

Forgive me for saying, I don't want this next bit to sound like the criticism it's not. But one of the key advantages of not having a single federally mandated voting day, fixed terms, and hard deadlines and the like is that if necessary (which has yet to happen), a riding whose elections were shown to be hopelessly compromised could be made to run a bi-election with additional scrutiny, and/or take as much time as is required to sort it out without affecting government operations at all. Up to and including the PM's seat.

Combine that with paper ballots, the accounting and the number of volunteers involved, it becomes almost impossible to compromise an election in anything resembling a widespread way. The last time it's been attempted, Quebec's last referendum, the tampering (limited to ballot stuffing at three or four polling stations in a single region) had stood out like a sore thumb. (It turns out there were more "votes" than people theoretically able to vote, let alone people recorded as having voted.)

And small instances are either too insignificant to flip a seat, or get discovered during the highly scrutinized mandatory recounts on all sufficiently close polls.

[Moose]

I just wanted to add another thought that came to me just now.

Oh, in the US they'll get a ballot to those who are hospitalized or unable to make it to the polls, as well. :)

Yeah, but what's really cool about it is that I was hospitalized in a different province.

They came by the day before one of the early polling days, asked us individually if we would like to register to vote by absentee ballot, went off and figured out which polls were involved, and the very next day, came by again with the correct ballots.

What amazed me is just how short notice (even with advance preparation and experience) they were able to handle this.

[Jim]

Originally Posted by Salty
I think it's wonderful, that we don't even have to be a member of an existing political party, to vote.

What? :confused:

When you register in Texas you do not state a party affiliation.

[Jim]

This past Sunday, on the CBS program "Sunday Morning", there was a segment on patriotism, what it means to various people, etc. ...

I saw that; good segment.

But, the one I really liked was the segment on Rabbit Hash, KY.

Several years ago, the residents of Rabbit Hash (honest, real town) decided they should have a mayor. They held an election; three men ran... and lost... to a dog.

The residents were so pleased with the dog's tenure that they decided to limit future elections to animals. This year there are ten dogs, a cat (It's time to end dog rule.) and a jackass (You know you're going to vote for one anyway.) in the race.

And, they blatantly buy votes... in reverse. You can cast a vote for a $1 donation to the local historical society. Multiple votes are encouraged.

[PraedSt]

I saw that; good segment.

But, the one I really liked was the segment on Rabbit Hash, KY.

Several years ago, the residents of Rabbit Hash (honest, real town) decided they should have a mayor. They held an election; three men ran... and lost... to a dog.

The residents were so pleased with the dog's tenure that they decided to limit future elections to animals. This year there are ten dogs, a cat (It's time to end dog rule.) and a jackass (You know you're going to vote for one anyway.) in the race.

And, they blatantly buy votes... in reverse. You can cast a vote for a $1 donation to the local historical society. Multiple votes are encouraged.

If this isn't a complete wind-up, I think I'll move to Rabbit Hash. The town sounds like a paradise for cynics. ;)

[Moose]

*lol* What a wonderful idea! Hehehe.

[Swift]

I hope this is within the bounds of this forum...

I have to say, I am moved by all of it, regardless of who I voted for.

I am almost 50 years old and just in my lifetime I have seen things go from lynchings, the Civil Rights Movement, and the March on Washington, to an African-American elected to be President. It is something amazing, something I never thought I'd live to see, and I am no less moved than I was nine hours ago.

Being the old cynic I am, I wonder how much we really can come together, to work on all of our vast problems. I am very concerned that by late spring or so, the honeymoon will be well over, and the old ugly politics as usual has taken over.

But, for the moment, I'll just enjoy this moment of hope, and hope that it lasts.

[SeanF]

It's not especially difficult.

The basic idea is that you get sent a voter card with your name, address, and polling station on it. It not only tells you where to go, but it's a "one card, one voter" situation.

Without the card, they go by the address on your ID(s) or utility bills. If you live at 123 Some Rd in Whereton, you're only eligible to vote at New Province's poll 62 using their (uniquely stamped) ballot, or beforehand by absentee ballot if you're going to be elsewhere.
So if you're not already registered (and thus, presumably, didn't get one of those voter cards), then you have to show ID or some kind of proof of residence.

The reason I'm asking is because those kinds of provisions have met with some pretty significant resistance in the US.

So if duplicate ballots start showing up at a poll...
Wait a second, what do you mean by "duplicate ballots"? There isn't something on the ballot that identifies the voter, is there?

Combine that with paper ballots, the accounting and the number of volunteers involved, it becomes almost impossible to compromise an election in anything resembling a widespread way.
I wholeheartedly agree with the paper ballots part. I don't like the idea of electronic voting, and a lot of the places in the US that had been using electronic machines are going back to paper ballots.

[Moose]

So if you're not already registered (and thus, presumably, didn't get one of those voter cards), then you have to show ID or some kind of proof of residence.

The reason I'm asking is because those kinds of provisions have met with some pretty significant resistance in the US.

There was some resistance over here as well, but so many forms of IDs are permissible, including utility bills, that our minority groups haven't been burdened by it. There are some fairly major cultural differences as well. Historically, we've never directly experienced ID requirements used as a discrimination tool, not widespread anyway, making the issue somewhat less urgent in the public mind. But that was considered, though.

Wait a second, what do you mean by "duplicate ballots"? There isn't something on the ballot that identifies the voter, is there?

It's managed just like a double-blind experiment. The people managing the voting can't identify the votes, and the counters can't identify the voters. Information on who voted with which ballot is not recorded.

That said, there are unique serial numbers hand-stamped on each ballot. The idea is to uniquely identify the ballot itself. Never the voter.

The voter card and voter lists validate individual voters, but do not record which ballot the voter receives, only that he/she has received one (and only one), marked it (or at least spent time in the voting booth), then again validating the (folded) ballot by making sure the number they gave you is the same number as the one you gave back, then watch you place that one ballot into the ballot box.

The ballot is a bit too big to palm easily, unless you happen to be built like Penn Jillette.

At no time (other than when you are in the voting booth) is the ballot out of sight of either you or the poll volunteers (who are always working in pairs, within eyeshot of the Elections Canada official, and any party or otherwise-recognized observers who are present.)

Once the polls close and the ballot boxes are unsealed, the counters know from their accounting that, say, New Province's poll 62 dispensed 500 ballots, with sequential serial numbers from 62-001 to 62-500. (Not the actual format of the numbers, but I never thought to look at the number on mine to see if it's a hash or an open format. I'm assuming it's an open format.)

If the counters discover that there are multiple ballots bearing the same codes, or invalid codes, or codes that were never dispensed, or are missing ballots, then they know something's wrong.

I wholeheartedly agree with the paper ballots part. I don't like the idea of electronic voting, and a lot of the places in the US that had been using electronic machines are going back to paper ballots.

There are four major problems with electronic voting that I've identified. Three major, and one so inherently massive that I'm dismayed anybody ever seriously considered using it.

1) Any sort of gadget or tool means added complexity for the voter. The Canadian ballot is designed simple enough for a small child to fill it out correctly.

2) Competing gadgets or tools, or the tendency towards replacing or upgrading equipment necessarily means a lack of uniformity, which means that some districts may face additional voting challenges.

3) Electronic voting requires a steady source of power, and machines that function as promised. Such systems can never be absolutely reliable, and absolute reliability is what is needed. Only pencil and paper are that reliable.

And the massive one:

4) Electronic voting, either through outright fraud, engineering disruptions, or taking advantage of non-uniformity by manipulating which locations get the flawed machines), necessarily introduces a new dimension. It becomes possible for a single person (or a relative few people) to have massive influence on the outcome of an election, and potentially get away with it.

The Canadian system as it stands at the moment means that election fraud has a horrible risk-to-reward ratio. No single person, or relatively small conspiracy of people, can affect the outcome of an election. It'll either be too small to be effective, too large to remain undetected (which is still pretty small), involve so many people that it can't help but coming out, or be so overwhelmingly ubiquitous that it makes the Apollo Hoax look trivial.

[SeanF]

It's managed just like a double-blind experiment. The people managing the voting can't identify the votes, and the counters can't identify the voters. Information on who voted with which ballot is not recorded.

That said, there are unique serial numbers hand-stamped on each ballot. The idea is to uniquely identify the ballot itself. Never the voter.
Okay. I wasn't questioning duplicate ballots, though, I was questioning the hypothetical of someone who is registered - and casts a ballot - in one precinct then proceeding to go to another precinct, do an on-site immediate registration, and cast another ballot.

I think there are some US jurisdictions that allow "provisional" voting, where someone who is not registered can fill out a ballot, but then that ballot has to be somehow sequestered with voter-identifying information attached so that it can be either counted or discarded later when the voter's right to vote in that election is actually verified.

I guess, in thinking about it, that the ballot is probably sealed in an envelope with the voter information on the envelope. If the voter is verified, then the ballot can be removed from the envelope and placed with the regular ballots. It's certainly possible to make it work, but only, I think, if the number of voters doing it is relatively small.

[Argos]

Some countries declare a public holiday to get out the vote. And I know of at least one, India, that does that and bans alcohol sales. Now that's cruel.

Do it on sundays, so no need for holidays.

[Doodler]

Do it on sundays, so no need for holidays.

In the mix with the usual overwrought, rehashed, dear-God-how-do-we-fill-24-hours-with-talking-heads, news coverage this year, there was a bit of a gem that popped up as to why the US has its elections on the first Tuesday in November.

Until now, I honestly had no idea why, but it was such a simple explanation, its easy to see why its been overlooked for decades.

[Argos]

In the mix with the usual overwrought, rehashed, dear-God-how-do-we-fill-24-hours-with-talking-heads, news coverage this year, there was a bit of a gem that popped up as to why the US has its elections on the first Tuesday in November.

Until now, I honestly had no idea why, but it was such a simple explanation, its easy to see why its been overlooked for decades.

Yeah, I know of the significance of Sundays in the lives of the ancient farmers, and all. But hey, this is the 21st century, and most people live in cities. I guess it could be done in the US [it is down here].

[Swift]

In the mix with the usual overwrought, rehashed, dear-God-how-do-we-fill-24-hours-with-talking-heads, news coverage this year, there was a bit of a gem that popped up as to why the US has its elections on the first Tuesday in November.

Until now, I honestly had no idea why, but it was such a simple explanation, its easy to see why its been overlooked for decades.
And, the explanation is...... (don't leave us hanging man)

[SeanF]

And, the explanation is...... (don't leave us hanging man)
Way back when, both going to church and going to vote often meant considerable traveling, so there was no way they'd do the elections on Sundays.

Also Mondays, since many people would have to travel on Sunday to get there.

Tuesday was next logical choice.

Early November because A) late enough not to interfere with the harvest, and B) early enough to be before most inclement weather (traveling, remember?).

First Tuesday after the first Monday rather than simply first Tuesday for two reasons. One, the first Tuesday could be All Saints Day, a Holy Day of Obligation in the Church. Second, because the law at the time required the Electoral College to meet on the First Wednesday in December and to meet within 34 days of election day. If November 1st is a Tuesday than the first Wedensday in December is the 7th and that's more than 34 days.

[Moose]

Okay. I wasn't questioning duplicate ballots, though, I was questioning the hypothetical of someone who is registered - and casts a ballot - in one precinct then proceeding to go to another precinct, do an on-site immediate registration, and cast another ballot.

You can only register to vote in your own poll, and your own address determines which poll that is. Hence the ID requirement for registration.

Someone might get around that using a number of falsified IDs, but if that's happening systemically, you have worse problems than the potential for one extra vote per poll per ID, spread out across the country.

Remember, the rule (with a few unusual exceptions) is that our Prime Minister is the leader of the party with the most elected seats. It is technically possible (although not done) for our Prime Minister to not actually have an elected seat.

So again, the scenario you describe has a horrible risk-to-reward ratio. If there are a thousand polls country-wide, one fraudulent voter would need a thousand fake IDs and would have to travel from poll to poll, a thousand of them, within the 14 hours of voting before the polls close. All to cast one insignificant invalid vote per poll.

[Salty]

What? :confused:

Yeah, I'm neither a Democrat nor a Republican, but I still get to vote. I'm independent. I like to make politicians work, for my vote, instead of taking it for granted, because of party membership.

I voted Republican for 24 years, Democratic for 15 years and independent the recent five years. The guy I wanted was an independent, who didn't get elected during the primaries. I voted my conscience then; and voted to win, in the general election. Didn't win.

[PraedSt]

I voted Republican for 24 years, Democratic for 15 years and independent the recent five years...

You pick odd times to change Salty :)

From Rep to Dem during Bush vs Dukakis? I would have thought 4 years later?
And Dem to Ind during GW's 1st term? I thought most people went the other way! :)

[peteshimmon]

Right! Thats that! Media will have to hype up
something else now.

And I do not think you are truly evil PraedSt.

And I promise to start using the whistling
smilie someday:)

[PraedSt]

Right! Thats that! Media will have to hype up
something else now.

And I do not think you are truly evil PraedSt.

And I promise to start using the whistling
smilie someday:)

Hehe. One of those sentences is wrong...

[SeanF]

You can only register to vote in your own poll, and your own address determines which poll that is. Hence the ID requirement for registration.

Someone might get around that using a number of falsified IDs, but if that's happening systemically, you have worse problems than the potential for one extra vote per poll per ID, spread out across the country.

Remember, the rule (with a few unusual exceptions) is that our Prime Minister is the leader of the party with the most elected seats. It is technically possible (although not done) for our Prime Minister to not actually have an elected seat.

So again, the scenario you describe has a horrible risk-to-reward ratio. If there are a thousand polls country-wide, one fraudulent voter would need a thousand fake IDs and would have to travel from poll to poll, a thousand of them, within the 14 hours of voting before the polls close. All to cast one insignificant invalid vote per poll.
You described that situation, not me. :) And all you've got to do is look at Florida in 2000 to know that sometimes you don't need even a thousand fraudulent votes to mess up the system.

BTW, I hope you don't think I'm somehow accusing your electoral system of being fraught with fraudulent votes or something. I'm more concerned with our system, where just about any requirement for showing proof of eligibility is argued against. I'm just using yours as a basis for comparison. :)

What if I just moved, and my driver's license still shows my old address but I've got utility bills from my new address. Could I vote at both polling places?

[Moose]

What if I just moved, and my driver's license still shows my old address but I've got utility bills from my new address. Could I vote at both polling places?

Oh, there's no question some people can and do slip through the cracks, no system is going to be perfect, but since they'll have your name on record as having voted twice, there's a fair chance you'll have some hard questions to answer later.

Our electoral systems generally can tolerate very small amounts of fraud fairly well. It's rare that elections come down to single-digit votes. As long as you're able to prevent systemic fraud or fraudulent counts, your election will remain fairly reliable.

[KaiYeves]

It's a good thing. It's a very good thing.

[Jens]

Yeah, I'm neither a Democrat nor a Republican, but I still get to vote. I'm independent. I like to make politicians work, for my vote, instead of taking it for granted, because of party membership.

Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to include quotes within quotes in a reply. But actually I wasn't surprised that you could vote as an independent. I was surprised that you mentioned it, because I assume that there is nowhere on earth, except for perhaps China and Vietnam and places like that, where people who are not members of established political parties cannot vote.

[Van Rijn]

Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to include quotes within quotes in a reply.


It's not hard, you just have to manually type in the quote tags. So this:

This is a quote. . . within a quote

looks like this:


This is a quote. . . within a quote

and this:


abcd

looks like:


abcd

[HenrikOlsen]

So if you're not already registered (and thus, presumably, didn't get one of those voter cards), then you have to show ID or some kind of proof of residence.

The reason I'm asking is because those kinds of provisions have met with some pretty significant resistance in the US.
Sounds almost like people want to be able to cheat more that then want to prevent others from doing so.

[mahesh]

It's not hard, you just have to manually type in ....
oh, looks so pretty! i want one, too! but my head hurts, right now!
thanks for that. hope i remember where to find you, next time

[Moose]

Sounds almost like people want to be able to cheat more that then want to prevent others from doing so.

It's a sensitive topic, Henrik, because ID requirements have been used in the past as a weapon: to deny minorities their right to vote. And recently enough to still be within living memory and thus generate strong resistance.

It's a bit like how Germans can be (understandably) touchy about proposals that smack of the bad old days.

Many of the ID proposals prescribe the use of one specific card. A card which costs enough money to be a burden to folks with small incomes. Poverty disproportionately affect minority populations. Hence the concern.

There was at least one proposal to waive the fee for an voter's ID card, but the documentation required to obtain one costs enough money to be a burden... etc.

Thing is, and please forgive the description of what is fundamentally a partisan concern, but another source of resistance was that the party proposing these changes would necessarily benefit most, considerably, and immediately from these changes.

ID requirements might generate less suspicion if this new administration were to propose them, and enacts them this year, early enough to give people plenty of time to smooth out any cost burdens.

[Jim]

Texas has no photo id rule. To vote, you need to provide some official document (voter's registration card, driver's license, utility bill) with your name and address as they appear on the voter roles.

There have been cases of partisan poll watchers (each party can provide one at each polling place) challenging voters and asking to see a photo id. The voter is not required to produce one, but the threat can send away some voters who don't know this.

(The trick for the poll watcher is recognizing those voters who might vote against his/her party.)

[Salty]

You pick odd times to change Salty :)

From Rep to Dem during Bush vs Dukakis? I would have thought 4 years later?
And Dem to Ind during GW's 1st term? I thought most people went the other way! :)

Well, in '88, I was looking at the past, not the present nor future. In 2003 I was looking at my own values, instead of the times nor the parties.

It may not make sense, but that's the way it happened. Anyway, now I'm an independent, for the foreseeable future.

[Salty]

Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to include quotes within quotes in a reply. But actually I wasn't surprised that you could vote as an independent. I was surprised that you mentioned it, because I assume that there is nowhere on earth, except for perhaps China and Vietnam and places like that, where people who are not members of established political parties cannot vote.

Hi, Jens,

I've seen so many changes, most of them restricting this or that, in my life, that I was just marvelling at my freedom to vote as an individual.

I'm exercising the philosophy of enjoying anything I have, while I have it. Things change so fast.

[tdvance]

Sounds almost like people want to be able to cheat more that then want to prevent others from doing so.


The stated reason is "poor people don't drive and thus would have to specifically decide to go get another form of ID" which of course is the old presumption that people can't think for themselves.

I think the real reason is the same as for Gerrymandering: be in favor of changes that increase numbers for your own party, against those that decrease. The same goes for things like "felon votes", age restrictions and even citizenship restrictions (yeah, I have heard a few, very few, suggest illegals should vote since they're affected by the outcome). (Speaking of gerrymandering--I took a look at the Maryland map--geez! long narrow districts, one is partly in Balto city, partly in balto county, partly in other counties, but only a tiny portion of each county--it's a maximize the perimeter-to-area ratio procedure, I guess).

Yeah, in the last few years we've had lots of arguments over requiring photo ID at voting sites--and politicians on both sides of the issue (not simultaneously in this case).