10-W30 snake oil and other minor rants

[LotusExcelle]

I'm am always amazed at how uninformed most people are about their vehicles. It is not, I feel, that they should be experts. Certainly that's *my* job. But I do feel its a responsibility of every car operator/owner to know some important basics about their vehicle. It is, after all, a weapon. And in that vein would we allow anyone to operate a gun without training? Isn't that incredibly dangerous?

So anyway I'm a master technician. 14 ASE certifications and more on the way. I've been doing this for 6+ years professionally and I've seen some pretty exotically stupid things done to vehicles. It baffles me. These things are land-based projectile weapons. They can kill you - fast - if you don't treat them with a healthy regard for maintenance and operation.

Here are a few things I've come across:

2003 Ferrari F360. Silver. 3,000 miles on it. I've worked on several Ferraris and some people think they are special. They aren't. The engines go 'bang' on the inside and they have four tires just like every other car on the road out there (please refrain from telling me about 3-wheeled cars. Those are glorified roller skates, not cars).

So this guy has it towed from his home in Buffalo to the shop I was working at at the time in Rochester. Not a cheap tow bill. Anyway the thing is smoking like you simply wouldn't believe. As soon as you start it up it puffs enough white smoke out the back to give every effects shop in the world a big stiffy. The guy thinks he blew the rings out.

Here's what really happened: Ferrari recommends you check the oil on that car, because of its oil setup, at full operating temperature. He didn't. He checked it cold and assumed it was low - and proceeded to add *14 extra* quarts of oil to the engine. That engine takes 14 to begin with so having twice the amount in there caused... issues, we'll say. Had he kept running it it would quickly have blown all the seals out of the motor and may even have hydro-locked the motor. Making that car a big metal sculpture.

How can you buy a car that expensive and nearly destroy it like that?

Another guy came in with a 308 GTSi. That is the *one* Ferrari I want. It sucks for a lot of reasons but I still want one. Love is blind. This particular car was a birthday gift. And it wasn't even the most expensive he'd gotten. Just a play car. He kept it in his garage for 5 years without moving it or starting it. Was *baffled* that it wouldn't just fire up after 5 years. We ended up having to drain the gas tank of its... nasty... fuel and replace all the plugs, etc.

Here's the kicker. The front fender was dented in many places. Because he'd LET HIS KIDS RAM THEIR BIKES INTO IT. Okay fine. He's got enough money not to care and if it were a Camry I wouldn't care either. But for crying out loud give *me* the car. I'll take care of it!!!!

Alright so many more to get into but I'll sum up this post with this one:

I just read a message board where people were complaining about Subarus. Here is their complaint: When they take their cars to 'fast-lube' type places the workers there drain their transmissions instead of their engines. One guy has had this happen to him *twice* and needed to replace the tranny both times.

Their collective solution: Blame Subaru for not labelling the drain plugs.

I'm sorry but if you, as a fast-lube employee, can't tell the difference between a transmission and an engine you need to have your butt thrown out of the shop. Don't blame the manufacturer for the ineptitude of the people doing the work.

More to come.

[geonuc]

I'll take the 308 off his hands. :)

[Moose]

Heh, so would I.

[Swift]

I've worked on several Ferraris and some people think they are special. They aren't. The engines go 'bang' on the inside and they have four tires just like every other car on the road out there
:lol:

Since I already have a something that goes bang on the inside, I guess I'll scrap those Ferraris plans. ;)

[Fazor]

:lol:

Since I already have a something that goes bang on the inside, I guess I'll scrap those Ferraris plans. ;)

You had chili for dinner too eh? ;)

[Nicolas]

If people don't care about their car, it's bad enough. What I really hate, is that they don't care about my car. As a young person, I pay 1/8th the price of my car yearly on insurance, and anything up to 500€ still comes out of my pocket. That high price is because statistically speaking, I'm a danger to my car.

1 year later. Car has a bit of damage. None caused by me. People driving into my car in parking lots is bad enough, but ok, that may be a little accident. Now we know the cliché about drivers not caring about anyone's car in northern France, but I had something happening to my car that was a little bit worse than expected (I expected to have my license plate dented in a parking lot within a week).

The first evening I arrive at the hotel, I park my car at the hotel's private parking. Half an hour later, another car parks next to me. Apparently when the driver got out, he placed his suitcase on my hood and then dragged it off. This caused a 1m scratch mark that at places nearly went to the bare metal. Thank you so much for ruining the looks of a new car with a good portion of sheer arrogance. And of course you can't prove it was him, so there's nothing you can do about it...

[Studioguy]

My father-in-law once decided to replace the solenoid switch on the starter of his Toyota 4-runner. Since he has absolutely no qualifications as a mechanic, or anything else that requires more diagnostic skill than selling bulk food items, it didn't turn out well. I went to help when my mother-in-law (absolute sweetheart) called and told me that he was standing in the driveway just staring at the truck making an awful noise and she thought there was some white smoke coming out.

When i got there, the starter had completely burned itself up and most of the teeth on the flywheel were broken off. When I got the starter assembly off I saw that he had connected the battery wire directly to the starter (along with the wire from the solenoid). As soon as that connection had been made, it sparked and started turning the engine over. It scared him and he jumped out from under it and scrambled turn off the key (which was actually in his pocket). It apparently didn't occur to him to disconnect the battery so he just got away from it and waited to it all died.

When I showed him the problem, he said "Oh, I guess I didn't realize the solenoid had anything to do with the battery." Then I got out the book he'd bought that gave him the confidence to do this job and showed him the drawing that explained the purpose of the solenoid switch and how it should be wired. He looked at the basic schematic like it was Mandarin Chinese and just shook his head.

The moral of the story? Well, I guess if you're going to go to all the trouble to buy a book that explains how to do something, it helps if you actually read it. If you read it and it doesn't make any sense, don't go any further into that project.

[LotusExcelle]

My father-in-law once decided to replace the solenoid switch on the starter of his Toyota 4-runner. Since he has absolutely no qualifications as a mechanic, or anything else that requires more diagnostic skill than selling bulk food items, it didn't turn out well. I went to help when my mother-in-law (absolute sweetheart) called and told me that he was standing in the driveway just staring at the truck making an awful noise and she thought there was some white smoke coming out.

When i got there, the starter had completely burned itself up and most of the teeth on the flywheel were broken off. When I got the starter assembly off I saw that he had connected the battery wire directly to the starter (along with the wire from the solenoid). As soon as that connection had been made, it sparked and started turning the engine over. It scared him and he jumped out from under it and scrambled turn off the key (which was actually in his pocket). It apparently didn't occur to him to disconnect the battery so he just got away from it and waited to it all died.

When I showed him the problem, he said "Oh, I guess I didn't realize the solenoid had anything to do with the battery." Then I got out the book he'd bought that gave him the confidence to do this job and showed him the drawing that explained the purpose of the solenoid switch and how it should be wired. He looked at the basic schematic like it was Mandarin Chinese and just shook his head.

The moral of the story? Well, I guess if you're going to go to all the trouble to buy a book that explains how to do something, it helps if you actually read it. If you read it and it doesn't make any sense, don't go any further into that project.

An excellent precautionary tale. I've seen countless self-fixes. Some elegant and correct. Others nightmarish.

One of the common failures up here is a brake line or fuel line bursting. This is primarily caused by the corrosive effects of salt that is used on the roads to prevent ice formation during the winter. One of the worst side effects is, of course, that cars rust like you wouldn't believe. (In fact all sorts of things happen to vehicles because of the salt we use up here. Electrical issues are now the most common and from what I've seen are the most misunderstood part of a vehicle.)

I've seen all kinds of brake line fixes. 99% of them are criminally dangerous. Hydraulic brake lines operate at pressures exceeding 2000 PSI. Yet many people repair their lines with rubber hoses, compression fittings, or annealed copper line. Next to electrical issues - line issues seem to draw the most 'hillfolking' by both the inept and the so-called pros.

A few car companies have been using coated brake lines. A few also use plastic fuel lines - and each of these last several times longer than steel lines. But currently no one comes close to making a salt-proof vehicle. However - some of the best protected are: Volvo, Saab, BMW, Mercedes, New-gen GM.

[PraedSt]

I have a small question for you professionals.

With all the high tech computing stuff going into cars, do you have to know some IT these days? Or do car computers rarely cause problems? In which case I want one, because my desktop...

[sabianq]

hi there LotusExcelle,

You said you were amazed at how uninformed most people are about their vehicles.

while i am not certified, I am a gear head and i do love cars and engines and am pretty good about knowing my way around them.

talking about being uninformed,
my first car was given to me by my great grandmother when she died in 1988, It was a 1956 Chevy 2 door hard top belair Black with a white top with a big V8 engine. the car had 75,000 miles on it and the interior was in pristine condition, the am tube radio even worked. only issue was the fact that it had spent it life in Wisconsin and was completely rusted. my dad made me sell it for 300 bucks when the breaks failed and the back seat fell out of the car and landed on the drive shaft while driving my little sister and her friend home from school. boy that was interesting.

needless to say, that car taught me about cars and engines and i became way less informed over the years.

but i still see it (or hear about it in this case)

I drive a 2004 VW Jetta TDi (Diesel) and i love it. the local navy exchange near the pentagon sells a Biodiesel blend and other alternative fuels like ethanol.

one day my wife was at the NEX to fill up the car with biodiesel diesel, the guy infront of her was driving a late model VW jetta sedan TDi (diesel) (easy to recognize) she patiently waited for him to finish at the pump when she noticed that he was reaching for ethanol pump. She was floored and decided to let him finish his task wondering if she should say anything. (I think she was just being amused by the rare entertainment).
12 gallons of ethanol later, he hopped back in his car and started it up, it ran for about 15 seconds then just stopped running. confused, he got out of the car and pushed it to the side.
apparently he figured out what had happened when my wife pulled up to the correct diesel pump and proceeded to get the correct furl for the car.

We had discussed if the ethanol would harm the components and rubber gaskets in the car, I assumed it could dry out stuff and cause premature wear.

would you know?

[LotusExcelle]

Its a little complicated. Modern CanII capable systems are pretty sophisticated but still cause issues. But the computers themselves (usually a minimum of 3 - Engine, Tranny, ABS) are very application specific and really quite stupid - they are designed mostly to not crash randomly. The fast communication bus modern vehicles use can wreak havoc if noise gets in the system (I can relay a story involving a Freightliner Columbia and the communication bus crashing the computers constantly but suffice to say: it gets really complicated)

[LotusExcelle]

hi there LotusExcelle,

You said you were amazed at how uninformed most people are about their vehicles.

while i am not certified, I am a gear head and i do love cars and engines and am pretty good about knowing my way around them.

talking about being uninformed,
my first car was given to me by my great grandmother when she died in 1988, It was a 1956 Chevy 2 door hard top belair Black with a white top with a big V8 engine. the car had 75,000 miles on it and the interior was in pristine condition, the am tube radio even worked. only issue was the fact that it had spent it life in Wisconsin and was completely rusted. my dad made me sell it for 300 bucks when the breaks failed and the back seat fell out of the car and landed on the drive shaft while driving my little sister and her friend home from school. boy that was interesting.

needless to say, that car taught me about cars and engines and i became way less informed over the years.

but i still see it (or hear about it in this case)

I drive a 2004 VW Jetta TDi (Diesel) and i love it. the local navy exchange near the pentagon sells a Biodiesel blend and other alternative fuels like ethanol.

one day my wife was at the NEX to fill up the car with biodiesel diesel, the guy infront of her was driving a late model VW jetta sedan TDi (diesel) (easy to recognize) she patiently waited for him to finish at the pump when she noticed that he was reaching for ethanol pump. She was floored and decided to let him finish his task wondering if she should say anything. (I think she was just being amused by the rare entertainment).
12 gallons of ethanol later, he hopped back in his car and started it up, it ran for about 15 seconds then just stopped running. confused, he got out of the car and pushed it to the side.
apparently he figured out what had happened when my wife pulled up to the correct diesel pump and proceeded to get the correct furl for the car.

We had discussed if the ethanol would harm the components and rubber gaskets in the car, I assumed it could dry out stuff and cause premature wear.

would you know?

Ethanol's primary harm on components has to due with its really low lubricity. It damages pumps and injectors really easily. Plus it is really corrosive. Ethanol-capable vehicles are simply 'hardened' against the wear. Mostly just with different materials.

As far as rubber seals - there really aren't many it would come into contact with ever. The fuel pump seal maybe - but it wouldn't really damage it.

**okay so I forgot to mention what it would do to a diesel. Under the right conditions it would break the injectors. If he's lucky it didn't do that - and he merely has to drain the tank, filters, lines, and refill with diesel and he's on his way. It may also have shot his high pressure pump.**

[eric_marsh]

I enjoyed reading the initial post. I've not had many opportunities to get close to such exotica but I have appreciated vehicles for many years. I understand that exotic cars are still just vehicles, with their own weaknesses and strengths. I've got a Mercedes 500 SL that looks good but is really a piece of junk. Probably the only car I owned that I always just enjoyed driving was my old air cooled Porsche 911. One of these days I'm going to get another one. My current street bike is one of the two most powerful production bikes you can buy, a Kaw ZX-14. But you know, it's just a motorcycle.

Here's what we most recently bought - it's a fun little car and always an attention getter.

http://homepage.mac.com/emarsh/.Pictures/dory1.jpg

[LotusExcelle]

Major points for the air-cooled 911.

[PraedSt]

Its a little complicated. Modern CanII capable systems are pretty sophisticated but still cause issues. But the computers themselves (usually a minimum of 3 - Engine, Tranny, ABS) are very application specific and really quite stupid - they are designed mostly to not crash randomly. The fast communication bus modern vehicles use can wreak havoc if noise gets in the system (I can relay a story involving a Freightliner Columbia and the communication bus crashing the computers constantly but suffice to say: it gets really complicated)

Thanks Lotus. I take it it might be an increasing problem in the future?

[sabianq]

a assumed as much, but didn't realize it was so corrosive,

at least my family is smart enough to know a diesel pump from gas or ethanol.

the biggest issue with diesel cars is the fact that the fuel port on the side of the car has a very large diameter throat, unlike gasoline cars where the fuel port is restricted to keep unleaded gas nozzles or diesel nozzles from entering the vehicle fuel ports, the diesel fuel port is so large any nozzle can fit in it.

my biggest fear is lending the car to someone who would be nice enough to do me a favor and fill her up with premium unleaded.

and something unrelated i noticed, since the price of diesel went up, I have noticed that the big black spot under (pretty much every) diesel pump has diminished quite a bit. I think that people are spilling less because the cost is so high.


maybe the high cost of fuel is helping to clean up the environment in more ways than one.

[LotusExcelle]

Thanks Lotus. I take it it might be an increasing problem in the future?

I'd like to say it'll get better but as systems get more complex their failure modes get stranger. As an example the Freightliner I was talking about once had a GPS on the roof. The owner took the GPS off but left the RS-232 cable in place. This eventually corroded and *that* corrosion is what was causing the comm bus noise. There are other such oddities - Volvos have a body computer that likes to fail a lot and, for exampe, make the headlights just stop working. (that's heavy trucks - not Volvo cars)

[LotusExcelle]

a assumed as much, but didn't realize it was so corrosive,

at least my family is smart enough to know a diesel pump from gas or ethanol.

the biggest issue with diesel cars is the fact that the fuel port on the side of the car has a very large diameter throat, unlike gasoline cars where the fuel port is restricted to keep unleaded gas nozzles or diesel nozzles from entering the vehicle fuel ports, the diesel fuel port is so large any nozzle can fit in it.

my biggest fear is lending the car to someone who would be nice enough to do me a favor and fill her up with premium unleaded.

and something unrelated i noticed, since the price of diesel went up, I have noticed that the big black spot under (pretty much every) diesel pump has diminished quite a bit. I think that people are spilling less because the cost is so high.


maybe the high cost of fuel is helping to clean up the environment in more ways than one.

Hah that could be! I'd hope everyone would be be less inclined to spill the stuff. But I've seen many a diesel spill.

[PraedSt]

I'd like to say it'll get better but as systems get more complex their failure modes get stranger...

Heh. Speaking as someone who trades derivatives, I can't see anything wrong in that statement...
Thanks again.

But this though:I've got a Mercedes 500 SL that looks good but is really a piece of junk.:eek: Someone explain, please

[PraedSt]

I think that people are spilling less because the cost is so high.

Time to be annoying :)

You're partly right sabianq. And very observant as well. People are more careful with pricier fuel. But the largest effect probably comes from the fact that people are buying less diesel in the first place, because its price has gone up.

Time to be annoying, over. Carry on...

[orionjim]

ROFL…

I’ve spent 40 years working in the auto industry, and your stories reminded me of a few of the things I saw throughout the years. During the 1980’s I was an engineer and worked in the area of product design. We used what is called Fault Tree Analysis (FTA) with the underlying premise that if it was possible that something could go wrong, it would.

Something going wrong applied to both the assembly and the maintenance.

[…]
I just read a message board where people were complaining about Subarus. Here is their complaint: When they take their cars to 'fast-lube' type places the workers there drain their transmissions instead of their engines. One guy has had this happen to him *twice* and needed to replace the tranny both times.

Their collective solution: Blame Subaru for not labelling the drain plugs.

I'm sorry but if you, as a fast-lube employee, can't tell the difference between a transmission and an engine you need to have your butt thrown out of the shop. Don't blame the manufacturer for the ineptitude of the people doing the work.
[…]

While I agree the fast-lube employee should have the proper training, where I worked; we the designers would take the blame. It should never have had the chance to happen.

[…]
I've worked on several Ferraris and some people think they are special. They aren't.
[…]

Yes; it’s all perception and expectation. It looks great, sounds great, handles great and has lots of power; but you can get the same thing (except the look) for a lot less money. Depending on how you define quality, it may come in a long way down on the list of other high end (but cheaper) sports cars. When someone is shelling out 150 to 200 thousand dollars on a status vehicle, quality has a completely different meaning.
Thanks for your thoughts; I would love to hear more.

Jim

[orionjim]

I'd like to say it'll get better but as systems get more complex their failure modes get stranger. As an example the Freightliner I was talking about once had a GPS on the roof. The owner took the GPS off but left the RS-232 cable in place. This eventually corroded and *that* corrosion is what was causing the comm bus noise. There are other such oddities - Volvos have a body computer that likes to fail a lot and, for exampe, make the headlights just stop working. (that's heavy trucks - not Volvo cars)

What you are seeing is a problem in the Failure Mode and Fault Tree Analysis. There are things that can happen but aren’t thought about in the design. The simple stuff will get even simpler and the complex stuff will get more complex.

I see you have 14 ASE certifications; I don’t know how the structure works, but I would assume you are near the top. Someone finding the problem in a RS-232 cable connection is not a beginner. I would really be interested in knowing if you have systems to quickly help track down problems like this. And if there is a way to capture the knowledge you gained, so it can be used by others.

Also is there a tier structure to the mechanics you work with, that problems pass through?

Jim

[LotusExcelle]

What you are seeing is a problem in the Failure Mode and Fault Tree Analysis. There are things that can happen but aren’t thought about in the design. The simple stuff will get even simpler and the complex stuff will get more complex.

I see you have 14 ASE certifications; I don’t know how the structure works, but I would assume you are near the top. Someone finding the problem in a RS-232 cable connection is not a beginner. I would really be interested in knowing if you have systems to quickly help track down problems like this. And if there is a way to capture the knowledge you gained, so it can be used by others.

Also is there a tier structure to the mechanics you work with, that problems pass through?

Jim

I happen to be really good with complex issues on vehicles - and to be honest I prefer troubleshooting issues like that rather than, say, putting brakes on something.

14 ASE certs is above average. I wouldn't say I'm near the top. I *will* be but the tests aren't cheap and they come up only twice per year.

Basically right now I'm literally the only tech here. I run the shop. Its *just* me. So any problems are mine. At most shops there is a hierarchy. In independent shops its usually a fairly loose setup. if you are having an issue you yell to the person closest to you. Some people have particular knowledge of specific things (I'm a freaking wicked expert on the VT365 ('Ford' 6.0l diesel) for example. So any and all issues for VT365's would come to me.

In fact I stopped by my old shop a few weeks ago and they were having issues with that motor. Its good to feel needed.

Anyway... the best way to share knowledge like that is honestly through message boards. But they are very spread-out and full of distractions. Basically within this company the guys that run the other terminals know my capabilities and will call me up on a few things from time to time.

Tracking down weird issues quickly is half luck and half experience. I know that 90% of the time *this* will be the cause of *this*. But if it isn't then... the hunting begins.

[captain swoop]

Why would anyone with a Ferrari check their own oil?

And why would you not go to your Ferrari dealer? you spend most of your time there anyway waiting for them to fix the electrical problems.

[pzkpfw]

But for crying out loud give *me* the car. I'll take care of it!!!!

I used to feel the same way, watching them blow up two jeeps per episode of "A-team".


I'm sorry but if you, as a fast-lube employee, can't tell the difference between a...

I had a friend who once decided to do the right thing by his Suzuki SJ something or other "jeep".

He went 'round it with a grease gun shoving grease in all the nipples he could find.

Including the ones on his rear brake cylinders... !



...a Kaw ZX-14. But you know, it's just a motorcycle.

So you'd swap for my ZR750-K1?


---

My two year old (bought it new) car used to stall all the time (auto, not stick), and the valves sounded like they were taking tap-dancing lessons, when at low RPM and I needed to speed up (like having stopped at an intersection, then needing to continue).

Too complex under the hood for me. Done a few fixes (including side-of-the-road bodges) on older cars, but too many wires and pipes today.

I thought it was early timing but dealer at first service (who heard about the stalling) said "oh it's all computer controlled, we don't do timing any more".

At second service I went to a different dealer, who cleaned out some air inlet valve thing; now the car runs like it should have when it was new.

So I've changed dealerships.

[mugaliens]

Oil...

Isn't that the stuff you rub onto the paint so that the car will have a better shine?

Seriously, I'm trying to remember if anyone I've known had any serious issues with their automobiles. I did know a couple once from church who requested prayer for their van as they had an upcoming trip and it wasn't running very well. I offered to have a look at it, but they declined.

Along with database theory and design, "basic automobile maintenance" ought to be a mandatory high school class. In fact, why don't they just teach a year of Transportation, which would cover everything from driver's ed, to using bus systems, subways, airlines, and, yes, vehicle maintenance, to include hands-on practice inspecting seat belts, tires, engine belts, lights, etc., and so on, and why does common sense appear to insight riots when it's suggested, ad nauseum...

[captain swoop]

Our old neighbour topped his oil up while parked on his drive that has a real steep slope, when he got it out on the road it was just about full to overflowing lol.

[pzkpfw]

Our old neighbour topped his oil up while parked on his drive that has a real steep slope, when he got it out on the road it was just about full to overflowing lol.

Ford apparently have a ritual of reversing cars over a hump at one of their test tracks.

Due to a certain (60's??) model that couldn't back out of a garage, if parked on a down-slope.

(Auto-trans fluid pickup only at rear of trans...)

[mfumbesi]

I'm loving this thread.....

[sarongsong]

...oh, and filling up your gasoline tank with diesel fuel is not a good idea, either... http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon11.gif

[Nicolas]

I have an easy take on oil: my car has this great yellow oil light. If it lits, you need to fill it up with 1l, the exact amount oil is sold in. JUmp into any garage (brand doesn't matter), ask oil for diesel engines of one of the types mentioned in your car's booklet or something really close to it (garages tend to never have exactly what the booklet says), pay the 12.5€, empty the can, done and ready to go another few ten thousands kilometers.

I'm not into car technology, but I asked once about refilling oil, and this is all it takes with my car. Still, people sometimes mess even that up big time. And in ways much worse than the wrong type of oil (which would not be too bad, unless it is a really really wrong type of oil).

[geonuc]

I'm loving this thread.....
I don't know. There's a lot of Ferrari dissing going on. :mad:

[Salty]

Great thread.

I learned a little lesson, on my '90 Ford Escort GT. I'd been running it year 'round, with radiator coolant in the radiator. In summer, it ran hot, but did not usually overheat. Which would be a problem, because it has aluminum head.

Just this year (bought it in '03) I learned that water in the radiator runs cooler in the summer. So, I've been putting in water, and it runs cooler. I'm now thinking over when best to start adding radiator fluid. Probably December or January, in this neck of the woods.

[LotusExcelle]

Salty - the general rule is a 50/50 mix of water/coolant. Also there are now several different *types* of coolant out there. Its really a disaster sorting out which is which but there is a new type of "green" coolant out there that works with all types of other coolants. Just be sure you check in your car's manual or as the parts store person which type is right for your car. Picking/mixing the wrong kind can and will cause some rather strange issues.

[captain swoop]

Plain water in a car Rad isn't a good idea. So called 'anti-freeze' or 'coolant' have important anti corrosive qualities..

As for waiting for the light to come on before you fill up with oil isn't a good idea. If it's got that low then bearings can be under lubricated and contaminants are concentrated, you can start to do damage.

[Laguna]

...oh, and filling up your gasoline tank with diesel fuel is not a good idea, either... http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon11.gif
The other way too...
Boy, this was embarassing.
I was late to pick up my then girlfriend at the train station.
I hopped into my dads new car, because it was first in line in our court and drove off noticing that the gas tank was almost empty.
So I stopped at our local gas station, took the petrol nozzle and fueld my dad's brand new Diesel with 80 liters of 95 octane premium gasoline.
The gas station just got new pums the last week and they switched the positions between diesel and premium and in my hurry I did not notice... :doh:
About 7 kilometers further down the road I then did notice...

[LotusExcelle]

Plain water in a car Rad isn't a good idea. So called 'anti-freeze' or 'coolant' have important anti corrosive qualities..

As for waiting for the light to come on before you fill up with oil isn't a good idea. If it's got that low then bearings can be under lubricated and contaminants are concentrated, you can start to do damage.


Exactly. I missed Nicolas' post the first time around that Captain responds to here in regards to oil.

What kind of car do you have again, Nicolas? Anyway some cars have yellow 'change oil' or 'oil service' reminders. They are set to trigger every XXXX miles. In the fleet I run they are set for 3000 miles but the oil change interval is in fact 6000 miles. You have no idea how hard it is to explain to drivers that they aren't out of oil.

Newer cars have longer oil change times. But they do *all* need oil *changes*. Not just refills. I personally also recommend changing the filter every single time (there seems to be a few out there that claim you don't need to - but the cost is so little and the benefits too good to skip this)

As for oil type - always put in the correct weight and API. There really are engines out there that just don't run right on too thin or too thick of an oil. Diesels with high pressure oil pumps in particular need the correct weight. (International's motors, for example)

Additives come up from time to time as well. Most additives are snake oil. Modern oils have more than enough additives and detergents built in already.

[novaderrik]

Additives come up from time to time as well. Most additives are snake oil. Modern oils have more than enough additives and detergents built in already.
most modern oils don't have the proper additives for older engines with flat tappet camshafts.
a couple of years ago, people with older cars started to notice that their camshafts were going flat. after doing some research and comparing notes on various gearhead websites, everyone started to realize that it was becasue of the EPA mandate to lower the amounts of some additives like zinc and phosphorous becasue they are bad for catalytic converters or something like that.
becasue of that, i run diesel oil in my older vehicles. but a lot of people run either race car oil or the readily available oils with some sort of additive- the most popular one being EOS from General Motors.
but there are also a lot of people that didn't want to worry about their flat tappet cams going flat, so they just spent the money and upgraded to a roller cam setup.

[LotusExcelle]

I wouldn't put blame primarily on the oil there. Flat tappets by design are a flaw - super-high pressure at the cam/tappet contact point. There has been a rash recently of failures but it isn't solely due to oil additive issues. Break-in oil does have higher zinc content, etc.

Roller cams are a better setup anyway. Gm doesn't have a great history with camshafts, either. They had a 1.8l that chewed through camshafts like crazy.

[LotusExcelle]

I myself have done several insanely complicated things to my cars. Possibly the most insane was when I revamped my 1994 Saab 900 S. It started life as a base model. Non-turbo, cloth interior. Really basic.

There was a 2-door turbo that came to the shop for regular stuff. Tires, brakes, oil changes - normal wear and tear. I kept joking to the shop owners that I was going to steal all the parts off it one day. (It even had the Viking 3-spoke rims I still to this day consider to be the best-looking rims on any car)

Well one day the lady that owned it decided to sell it to Frank, one of the shop owners. He kept it for a few months then re-sold it to another customer. I thought my chance at having the car I'd always wanted had slipped by. I wasn't making any money back then. In fact it was near criminal - so I couldn't afford to buy the thing.

Anyway a few months later that Saab came rolling down the driveway on a flatbed tow truck. The kid had flung it into a guard rail and seriously damaged the body.

Fast forward to a few weeks later and here is the scene:
My car - entire interior is removed. By that I mean *every single thing* on the inside. Every wire in the car, every piece of carpet, sound-deadening, even the HVAC box. Gone.

In went everything from the donor-car. Leather seats, upgraded HVAC, better stereo. I don't know if you've ever expanded the wiring of a car but it extended to over 30 feet layed out flat and weighed well over 30 pounds.

That was round one. It was a freaking marathon.

Round two involved swapping the front subframe, motor, tranny, and suspension from the donor car. I removed my car's setup in 45 minutes flat. Saabs, despite some claims, are remarkably easy to work on. Everything is modular. As an example the entire engine harness can remain intact. Simply push the computer connecter through the firewall and voila.

We wheeled the two complete assemblies around and literally dropped my car *onto* its new subframe and engine.

Several weeks later I had it up and running (it had a few issues here and there relating to the accident damage suffered by the donor car - like a cracked intercooler).

A few months later I'd done some... shall we say... modifications to it. Let's just say it wasn't normal. It didn't sound normal it didn't act normal and it for sure didn't look like it was capable of certain things.

It was in this modified version of my car - which I had upgraded and modified with little to no budget - that I hit 146 miles per hour. I sustained that speed for a full 5 minutes. At night. Driving to Ottawa. I pulled 32mpg on that trip.

Anyway - I'll have more tales involving that car as it was honestly really fast. A bit of a sleeper as it looked normal but sounded really really really evil. I may also post a link to the only audio file I have of it accelerating.

I also have a rant about the NYS DMV regarding that car. In short they confiscated it from me thinking I had stolen it from... myself. no really.

[Jay200MPH]

One of the many jobs I had when I was in university was as an automotive technician. I did oil changes plus rotating & balancing tyres and some other minor jobs that the place was too cheap to put a mechanic on.

You guys would not believe some of the stupidity I encountered at that place. Not only the slack-jawed yokels who we called "customers" but also the other technicians and staff. Most of the mechanics were okay but a couple of them did things that firmly had one foot in moronland. I would have never guessed how clueless some people could be at, well, everything.

I'll have to write up some examples. The one that springs to mind is a guy who loudly proclaimed that his beat, bone-stock '87ish 3.8L Buick "got turbo in it" while we were both standing in front of the exposed engine to which no turbo was fitted. I can only assume he'd put in "Turbo Power!" screenwash and was referring to that...

Oh man, I could go on for hours. More later.

- J

[LotusExcelle]

or he meant he put a turbo 350 tranny in it.

[Jay200MPH]

Well it was FWD so maybe he had one in the trunk. :lol:

[LotusExcelle]

Ah - I thought perhaps it was still the RWD. Either way you are right - the guy must have been a moron.

[Nicolas]

Exactly. I missed Nicolas' post the first time around that Captain responds to here in regards to oil.

What kind of car do you have again, Nicolas? Anyway some cars have yellow 'change oil' or 'oil service' reminders. They are set to trigger every XXXX miles. In the fleet I run they are set for 3000 miles but the oil change interval is in fact 6000 miles. You have no idea how hard it is to explain to drivers that they aren't out of oil.

Newer cars have longer oil change times. But they do *all* need oil *changes*. Not just refills. I personally also recommend changing the filter every single time (there seems to be a few out there that claim you don't need to - but the cost is so little and the benefits too good to skip this)

As for oil type - always put in the correct weight and API. There really are engines out there that just don't run right on too thin or too thick of an oil. Diesels with high pressure oil pumps in particular need the correct weight. (International's motors, for example)

Additives come up from time to time as well. Most additives are snake oil. Modern oils have more than enough additives and detergents built in already.

Skoda Octavia, 2 liter diesel. So that's a Volkswagen group engine. And in that case, yellow light means oil level close to minimum. Red light means: fumes only in the oil department ;). As the difference between min and max oil level is 1 liter, you can just empty a can into it.

That is, in those cases where you don't want to exchange all oil or do other jobs, as you said. But in my case, it was the first time, after about 11000km. The car was 9 months old, so replacing anything wasn't yet on the agenda. The next litre of oil should last much longer regarding oil level (oil quality is a different thing...), as -but you know that of course- oil and tiny bits of dirt are part of what keeps the system leak free, so a totally new system will leak a tiny little bit until it's "dirty" enough ;).

You need to take care about the type of oil with high pressure pumps, that's correct. I did look into that, but as the garage didn't have any of the "you should use these types of oils:" they went for the "but you can also use this type if the others are not available", mainly because the first list of oils is very hard to find and one of the fine arguments for your dealer to make a small revision of your car excessively expensive :).

Anyway, at about 15000km my car goes in for its first revision, and if they deem replacing oil or oil filter necessary at that time, it'll be done anyway. That was another argument for not replacing oil/filter when I hit the low oil mark at 11000km.

Engine temperature, sound and behaviour are identical after using the new oil for one thousand km, so apparently I did buy a quite correct type indeed :). But if they want to replace all oil at 15000, fine. I will fill up the wiper spray compartment beforehand though, because if they fill it for you during revision, they charge about 30 times what it costs when you do it yourself...The same goes for oil maybe, but I don't have the facilities for exchanging oil myself (regulations for that are quite stringent here) so I don't complain.

[Nicolas]

Question: what's true about shutting down your turbo diesel engine after a long ride; are you allowed to do it immediately or should you let it run stationary for a minute or two, to cool down the turbo?

As the engine stays on temperature very long anyway (after long rides, I can have it shut down for half an hour, and then the temp gauge is still close to nominal leven when I start it again...) so I don't know how much those 2 minutes of stationary turning would reduce thermal stresses...

[Jay200MPH]

The turbo is cooled by oil that circulates through it. If you shut a hot engine off right away, that circulation stops and the hot oil will stagnate and burn in the much-hotter turbocharger, leaving burnt oil deposits that clog the coolant passages. That's very bad.

Remember that the turbocharger will get far hotter than the rest of the engine. While the temperature gauge (which measures the water/antifreeze) may read something like 90°, the turbo can be hundreds or even thousands of degrees. It's also much smaller and cools much faster than the rest of the engine.

That said, the answer depends on what kind of driving you're doing. My commute to work is about 10 minutes and I don't get over 60 km/h, and I very rarely use more than ~40% throttle. When I get to work I end up cruising through the campus at 10% throttle (not enough to make boost), in the middle of second gear, for at least a couple minutes. I figure my (petrol) engine never got that hot to begin with and idling actually is worse for cooling than moving at a steady pace with no throttle input. So I generally find my parking spot and shut the car off.

If you've just come in off the highway, or a racetrack, or from a hilly road, or you were driving hard (heavy throttle inputs, etc.) for some other reason, you should always always always let the oil circulate for a couple minutes before yanking the key. Stop-and-go traffic isn't as bad since you're not generally into boost but if the engine is fairly hot (fans came on) you should let it cool down anyway.

- J

[Nicolas]

In my situation, it is hardly ever an issue. The job parking lot is right next to a fast road, but the road to work takes only 15 minutes, of which only the last 7 minutes in the 70-90 km/h department, followed by 1 minute of 20 km/h on the parking lot. So it's no issue there, I think. In fact it takes 10 minutes before the tamp gauge of my engine is at its nominal point :).

And when driving home, there's always at least 4 minutes (sometimes 10 or more, depending on traffic) of village driving between me and the highway, and that's the closest destination from a highway I ever visit.

So with that kind of driving, I think it's no issue in my case.

The people at my job who come from a distance need to take care though, as they end a long fast trip directly on the parking lot...

[LotusExcelle]

In my situation, it is hardly ever an issue. The job parking lot is right next to a fast road, but the road to work takes only 15 minutes, of which only the last 7 minutes in the 70-90 km/h department, followed by 1 minute of 20 km/h on the parking lot. So it's no issue there, I think. In fact it takes 10 minutes before the tamp gauge of my engine is at its nominal point :).

And when driving home, there's always at least 4 minutes (sometimes 10 or more, depending on traffic) of village driving between me and the highway, and that's the closest destination from a highway I ever visit.

So with that kind of driving, I think it's no issue in my case.

The people at my job who come from a distance need to take care though, as they end a long fast trip directly on the parking lot...

Jay's advice on turbos is sound but I'd like to add a few caveats to it. One is that diesel turbos - particularly small ones - don't get nearly as hot as gasoline turbos.

Modern synthetic oils also prevent the coking that Jay is talking about that can clog/damage the oil ports of the turbo.

Also there are many turbos out there that are additionally cooled by water - these often do not require a cool-down period unless you are really beating the snot out of them.

So basically here's my advice: don't worry about cooling it down unless you've been really romping on it. But DO let it idle for a few seconds so the impeller can spin down to normal speeds.

Bonus: This is what a Saab C900 looks like when you go fast.

[Nicolas]

I think that any practical situation in which I stop my car (I don't "do" circuits), I will have driven for a few seconds below the point where the turbo really kicks in, so the turbo rpm will be quite low if I understand the technology. I mean when maneuvring on a parking lot at 20km/h (in second, so low engine rpm, about 1700 rpm) for half a minute, your turbo will have revved down already, right? Or when driving at 1800rpm through the street before driving up your driveway, at 1400 rpm.

[LotusExcelle]

Impeller speed is most dictated (it gets a little complicated) by engine speed. Anything above idle starts it spinning faster, basically. Just let it idle for a few seconds before shutting it down.

[Nicolas]

I'm no fast parker anyway, so it'd be hard to define where I stop parking the thing and start idling. ;) :D

[sarongsong]

10-W30 snake oil and other minor rants:doh: Is there supposed to be a comma after the 30?

[LotusExcelle]

In fact no. I meant it to sound like snake oil was rated for use in vehicles.

[chrissy]

It is not just some car owners who disrespects cars, my car has just received a beauty keying along the drivers side. :( and when I was at the hospital a couple of months back, I parked up beside another car making sure there was plenty of room for me to get out safely without damaging their door, but when I came back they decided that my car looked better than theirs, they decided to put a serious dent in the panel, it cut me up inside.
I love my car and tinker with it often to make sure I have no problems when I am driving anywhere.

I hate it when I see others using their cars as a rubbish bin, all they need is a few rats running in between the rubbish and there would be no comparison.

[sarongsong]

In fact no. I meant it to sound like snake oil was rated for use in vehicles.Ah---I took it to mean that 10-30W itself was snake oil and kept looking for why. Carry on.

[Robinson]

I thought the same thing, that this was about 10-30W oil, and why it was bogus. Or something. It's confusing.

[LotusExcelle]

Nonono. Sorry if I worded it oddly. It is meant for all things stupid about car things. In case you missed or skimmed through I'm a master tech and have seen all kinds of craziness from all directions related to vehicles. From quack additives/add-ons to drivers that don't change their oil for 30k miles and *wonder* why their engine seizes.

Anyway. Its also a depository for fond car memories.

[man on the moon]

I have a few quickies:

When I was young, one of my favorite "chores" was putting gas in the car at the gas station. I remember once upon a time getting my mothers attention because the nozzle wouldn't fit in the tank opening, and could she help me. Turn out I had grabbed the diesel handle instead of the gasoline handle (all the pumps at home had both available).

When I was in college I left a car for the summer while I was gone. Upon returning I took it out for the weekend with some friends. On the way back, it died. Turns out it is a good idea to check the oil level BEFORE leaving on the trip...it had emptied or burned all the oil over the summer, perhaps leaked out somewhere along the way due to a dried seal or something. Anyway, that car had an engine in which the valves and piston heads occupied the same space at different times. Once the timing belt broke...well, we ended up donating that car to the auto-tech department for work in their labs.

Last, and most amusingly, I recently acquired a 91 Subaru. Great car, but was talked into paying more for it than I wanted. Still, with only 134k miles and a clean title, I bit.

On the way home from the broker, a radiator hose burst (it had apparently been sitting a year or two before the dealer picked it up). A week or so later I noticed another problem: it had the original mileage as when I'd bought it. Turns out (I suspect) the little 'finger' that turns the mile indicator broke off. The tenths wheel turns, but the miles don't. If I had noticed, I could have argued it was a salvage title or something and gotten it for 1k, but alas. I hope it is the Peter Pan of cars and never grows up--134k forever! :D

In reality, it is probably between 150k and 160k as the clutch is indicating it needs replacement soon among other things--with that done, though, it should run to 300k.

[captain swoop]

I don't know about the USA but in the UK specialist 'old fashioned' oils are marketed for older engines. Plus if you have a diesel or turbo diesel buy a branded diesel oil.

Usualy you don't need to keep an engine running to cool down the turbo on a diesel, they are running at a much lower temp than a turbo on a petrol engine. Plus they are at a lower pressure.

Back in the 80s I had a n RS Turbo Escort Mk 1 (the original RS Turbo with the proper adjustable suspension but the weedy standard escort front disk brakes) If it was left standard there was no problem with the turbo. If it was modified in any way to increase boost then an oil circulator was recommended to protect he bearings.

[Salty]

Salty - the general rule is a 50/50 mix of water/coolant. Also there are now several different *types* of coolant out there. Its really a disaster sorting out which is which but there is a new type of "green" coolant out there that works with all types of other coolants. Just be sure you check in your car's manual or as the parts store person which type is right for your car. Picking/mixing the wrong kind can and will cause some rather strange issues.

Well, since I added water to coolant, it should be OK.

The coolant's green, but I don't know if its the brand to which you referred.

The Auto store I shop at employees knowledgeable people, and I aslo bought a manual for the car. I'm fairly careful.

To Captain Swoop, thanks for your input. The car has a heat gauge instead of idiot lights. I much prefer needled gauges to dash lights. I monitor my instrument readings while driving.

[Salty]

Salty - the general rule is a 50/50 mix of water/coolant. Also there are now several different *types* of coolant out there. Its really a disaster sorting out which is which but there is a new type of "green" coolant out there that works with all types of other coolants. Just be sure you check in your car's manual or as the parts store person which type is right for your car. Picking/mixing the wrong kind can and will cause some rather strange issues.

Well, since I added water to coolant, it should be OK.

The coolant's green, but I don't know if its the brand to which you referred.

The Auto store I shop at employees knowledgeable people, and I aslo bought a manual for the car. I'm fairly careful.

To Captain Swoop, thanks for your input. The car's had coolant in the radiator for five years, since I bought it. So, corrosion should be little or none.

[LotusExcelle]

Last, and most amusingly, I recently acquired a 91 Subaru. Great car, but was talked into paying more for it than I wanted. Still, with only 134k miles and a clean title, I bit.

In reality, it is probably between 150k and 160k as the clutch is indicating it needs replacement soon among other things--with that done, though, it should run to 300k.

I drive a Subaru now as well. I've worked on many many, Subarus before and can say that the highest mileage one I've ever seen (though I know they go past this) is 270,000. It ran fine but was rusted beyond belief. Just be sure you get the timing belt changed. I think Subaru recommends 95k miles but I personally prefer the 60k change. Especially as the front cam seals tend to leak and can cause damage to the belt.

[LotusExcelle]

I don't know about the USA but in the UK specialist 'old fashioned' oils are marketed for older engines. Plus if you have a diesel or turbo diesel buy a branded diesel oil.

Usualy you don't need to keep an engine running to cool down the turbo on a diesel, they are running at a much lower temp than a turbo on a petrol engine. Plus they are at a lower pressure.

Back in the 80s I had a n RS Turbo Escort Mk 1 (the original RS Turbo with the proper adjustable suspension but the weedy standard escort front disk brakes) If it was left standard there was no problem with the turbo. If it was modified in any way to increase boost then an oil circulator was recommended to protect he bearings.

Those turbo Escorts were fast little buggers.

Anyway diesel turbos do run a lot cooler that gas turbos. But the pressures they operate at are usually similar or higher. This is a different class of diesel but as an example v-8 truck diesels run up to 40psi typically.

I'm not sure what the VW TDI runs as far as boost - I'll look it up - but most gas turbos don't go far beyond 14psi (with few exceptions. Saab had one that ran 21psi from the factory and got just unreal gobs of torque)

Of course boost requires a good bottom-end of the motor. And this in particular is why diesels handle so much boost.

[Jay200MPH]

Bonus: This is what a Saab C900 looks like when you go fast.

...And this is what your brakes look like when you run a track day with a sticky caliper:

http://publish.uwo.ca/~jmhoeber/rotor-hot.jpg

:D

(The picture doesn't do it justice. It was so bright it was actually hard to look at. Whoops.)

- J

[LotusExcelle]

VERY nice, jay. I'm amazed it didn't shake the crap out of your steering wheel.

[Nicolas]

Nonono. Sorry if I worded it oddly. It is meant for all things stupid about car things. In case you missed or skimmed through I'm a master tech and have seen all kinds of craziness from all directions related to vehicles. From quack additives/add-ons to drivers that don't change their oil for 30k miles and *wonder* why their engine seizes.

Anyway. Its also a depository for fond car memories.

Don't you have to go to the garage every say 10k miles where the oil will be exchanged if necessary in the US? I refer to the maintenance intervals determined by your car manufacturer.

[Nicolas]

@Chrissy: it gets even more lovely when people get in their car, ram their door into yours while you're sitting in your car, and still act as if nothing happened. sigh...

[LotusExcelle]

Here we aren't required to take the vehicle to a shop to have it changed. I take from your posts that you *are* required to take it somewhere. In fact there are still people here who dump their oil and coolant onto the ground. I really don't think they understand just how bad that is.

Everywhere I've worked has been pretty good about taking care of waste fluids.

I would say that more than half of the cars on the road are not kept up to manufacturers recommendations. Its likely more than that, to be honest. I'm not aware of anyone that waits the recommended iol change interval. Most people either do it every 3000 or way way beyond a sane mileage.

I had to change a Nissan 3.5l out because it seized. The recommended oil change period was 7500, if I recall. The guy had gone 10,000 miles and by that point it was wayyyy too late. Big lump of metal. Of course this same guy went 12,000 miles between changing the oil on his Corvette.

The general practice here is a full oil change and filter change every 3,000. That's for post-warranty vehicles.

[Nicolas]

Wouldn't you see your nominal engine temperature get higher than normal when you've got oil problems this large?

Anyway I take the car in whenever the booklet says it needs to be done, or before it needs to go to the annual inspection. The inspection is required. The garage visits not, except for the warranty.

So the oil is changed after more than 3000 miles in my car, but it's still a new car (skoda also recommends an interval larger than 3000 miles, but I don't know the exact interval they propose). And at least it will be changed regularly (every garage stop, which will be at least one a year once it's three years old), in comparison to many other cars :).

[LotusExcelle]

Wouldn't you see your nominal engine temperature get higher than normal when you've got oil problems this large?

Anyway I take the car in whenever the booklet says it needs to be done, or before it needs to go to the annual inspection. The inspection is required. The garage visits not, except for the warranty.

So the oil is changed after more than 3000 miles in my car, but it's still a new car (skoda also recommends an interval larger than 3000 miles, but I don't know the exact interval they propose). And at least it will be changed regularly (every garage stop, which will be at least one a year once it's three years old), in comparison to many other cars :).

You really wouldn't see the engine temp climb. Not the coolant anyway and very very few cars have oil temp gauges. Coolant temps really only climb when there is a head gasket issue or specifically a problem in the cooling system itself.

Beyond that the bearing failure related to little to no oil happens *really* rapidly - its basically too late by the time any temperature issues would show up. There WOULD however be a lot of noise beforehand.

[chrissy]

@Chrissy: it gets even more lovely when people get in their car, ram their door into yours while you're sitting in your car, and still act as if nothing happened. sigh...

Do you know whats even worse, I just parked up in a car park beside someones car and this woman who was driving a very wide car tried to park up on the other side of this persons car, she rammed it and tried to squeeze hers in making that car almost tip over on mine, I sat there glued to my seat staring in disbelief, then she reversed the car causing more damage, she drove off and parked else where,then got out of the car and was watching me. At that point I got out and decided to inspect the damage and a security guard walked over as he had also saw the entire act, we both put our details down and put the note in he car owners wiper. The woman who committed the offence climbed back into her car and drove off, the security guy got her car details before that. :D
The damage was pretty bad, both the drivers sides doors were rammed in and scratched almost from the back to the front.
People have no regard for other peoples property as long as theirs hasn't received any damage. :(

[LotusExcelle]

Chrissy - that's an almost sociopathic disregard that lady showed. I really think its sick when people show that much disrespect towards other people's property. I mean just the concept is sick.

[captain swoop]

In the UK you only take it to the garage for oil if you are still under the warranty, most run to 5 years or a set number of miles, whichever comes first.

As for the RS Escort, yes it was fast, I had the brakes uprated with calipers and vented disks from a Ford Granada. One of my mates had a full set of disks all round but he did some serious mods to the engine, it's amazing what you could get out of a 1600.

[mugaliens]

I much prefer needled gauges to dash lights. I monitor my instrument readings while driving.

I've long wanted to rebuild my dashboard so that I did everything manually, including advancing the timing and increasing the dwell, and of course, monitoring all guages.

Ah.. Only while flying really old planes do I get to do that!

[chrissy]

Chrissy - that's an almost sociopathic disregard that lady showed. I really think its sick when people show that much disrespect towards other people's property. I mean just the concept is sick.

I was shocked LE and so too was the security guard, all I could think of for her reason to run away is: she was either under the influence of some narcotic, or not insured.
She legged it for sure and never left any details.



@captain swoop, I do my own oil change. :p

[pzkpfw]

Ah.. Only while flying really old planes do I get to do that!

...or riding a very old motorcycle?

(I think I've seen manually controlled timing advance on an old bike...)

[darkhunter]

@Chrissy: it gets even more lovely when people get in their car, ram their door into yours while you're sitting in your car, and still act as if nothing happened. sigh...

We had owned my wifes car less than half an when someone did a hit in run on it in a parking lot--scraped a good chunk of paint off of the bumper dbut didn't do a whole lot of other damage...

And I always part out of the way so there's plenty of room to go around :(

[chrissy]

As do I but it seems to me that more care is taken if you park closer to theirs. :(

[mugaliens]

...or riding a very old motorcycle?

(I think I've seen manually controlled timing advance on an old bike...)

Wouldn't surprise me!

I was thinking of something more along these lines:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/mugaliens/c130cockpit.jpg

Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean the more modern, glass cockpit versions are any less complicated...

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/mugaliens/space_shuttlecockpit.jpg

[Trebuchet]

What is that lower picture Mugs? Space shuttle? World's most complicated glider? (Guess that's the same thing!)

[Robinson]

Well, the picture is named
space_shuttlecockpit.jpg

which might be a clue.

[eric_marsh]

Heh. Speaking as someone who trades derivatives, I can't see anything wrong in that statement...
Thanks again.

But this though::eek: Someone explain, please

Sorry that I was so slow in responding to this.

I've had a couple of 500SLs and my take is that Mercedes are overpriced, way too expensive to to work on and just not great cars. Yes, the 500 SL does look good. But for German engineering I'd take a Porsche 911 over a Mercedes any day.