A psychological term

[Jens]

I have a question about a term in psychology. What do you call it when a person assumes that others are acting based on the same motivations that drive them? For example, if I am a jealous person, and somebody asks me who I am with, I might assume that the person is acting out of jealousy (even thought it turns out to be mere curiosity). Would that be something like "projection" or "transference"?

[Frog march]

people seem to do this all the time, it's sort of an autistic process whereby people can't really tell themselves and others apart, at some levels. I'm trying to learn not to do that...

[hhEb09'1]

I have a question about a term in psychology. What do you call it when a person assumes that others are acting based on the same motivations that drive them? For example, if I am a jealous person, and somebody asks me who I am with, I might assume that the person is acting out of jealousy (even thought it turns out to be mere curiosity). Would that be something like "projection" or "transference"?After I read your first two sentences, my answer was projection. BIANAPTG.

[jokergirl]

I think Projection, yes.

Not necessarily autistic. I have a grudge about people pinning "autistic" on things people do, as if that gives them an excuse for not having to try to better themselves. The recent slurry of self-diagnosed "Asperger's" on the net is even more annoying.

;)

[Buttercup]

I have a question about a term in psychology. What do you call it when a person assumes that others are acting based on the same motivations that drive them? For example, if I am a jealous person, and somebody asks me who I am with, I might assume that the person is acting out of jealousy (even thought it turns out to be mere curiosity). Would that be something like "projection" or "transference"?

I'd call it projection.

I've previously [years ago] read about "transference" in Carl Jung's material; can't recall specifics but IIRC it is a different phenomenon from "projection". You may wish to Google for Jung's definitions. :)

[Buttercup]

--Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference

Transference is a phenomenon in psychoanalysis characterized by unconscious redirection of feelings for one person to another

Based on what you've said, I'd call it Projection ("you're ____ (what I'm guilty of but can't see in myself/self-admit)"].

[Gillianren]

Not necessarily autistic. I have a grudge about people pinning "autistic" on things people do, as if that gives them an excuse for not having to try to better themselves. The recent slurry of self-diagnosed "Asperger's" on the net is even more annoying.

It's become fashionable in certain circles of my acquaintance to claim to be a sociopath. This means you have an excuse and are not just a jerk.

[tdvance]

Autistic could be a metaphor in some cases. I'm thinking of an example where a mathematician I know said some person was "just too autistic" to be useful in his organization--I'm nearly certain he's not clinically autistic. But he does have a lot of trouble realizing how he comes across to others (he behaves boorishly--overtly self-centered without realizing how that turns off those who might otherwise act on his behalf, such as superiors who decide promotions, in which department he works, etc.--it's like a dog biting the hand that feeds him, thinking that the food is just magically appearing in his bowl or something), suggesting this lack of empathy (or lack of ability to see himself as others see him) that is one symptom of autism. This mathematician knows well what autistic means and clearly was speaking metaphorically.

[Buttercup]

A former friend always projected "You want perfection." Was helping him/wife build a business. Thing is, they didn't want to cooperate with their business partners; wanted us to do all the work while they kept to themselves/at home - selfish and exclusive. Others and myself complained; we were told "You want perfection." No, what I wanted at that point was to grab him by the hair and slam his thick head into a brick wall. :) It was they who wanted perfection (us to do all the work while they did whatever/however they pleased at home). Didn't take me long to drop them like a hot rock...

We've all done it (projection) at some time or other - to varying degrees - but some folks are truly afflicted with it. :rolleyes:

[mugaliens]

Projection. Anyone else want to confirm this?

[Jens]

It may be the right term, but I'm not sure. According to Wikipedia,

According to Sigmund Freud, projection is a psychological defense mechanism whereby one "projects" one's own undesirable thoughts, motivations, desires, and feelings onto someone else.

It sounds close, but I didn't only mean it as a defense mechanism. So it may be something else.

[Gillianren]

I'd call it projection. Freud may have meant to limit it to a defense mechanism, but I think people do it for all sorts of reasons.

[kleindoofy]

Projection is correct for Freudian psychology, resp. psycho-analytical terminology. Behaviorists or more modern schools may have different names for it.

Interestingly enough, this can phenomenon can be used nicely in reverse psychology: you can see how other people think by seeing what they accuse people of thinking.

[HenrikOlsen]

It's become fashionable in certain circles of my acquaintance to claim to be a sociopath. This means you have an excuse and are not just a jerk.
But that's just using a different name for the same thing, isn't it?

I guess that's a trend that would reverse really fast if "sociopath" got tagged as a diagnosis that required removal from society in order to protect it.

[mugaliens]

It may be the right term, but I'm not sure. According to Wikipedia ... It sounds close, but I didn't only mean it as a defense mechanism. So it may be something else.

According to the details you provided in your OP (http://www.bautforum.com/off-topic-babbling/82625-psychological-term.html#post1392379), it's projection.

[djustdee]

Heya,

I'd call it projection. Freud may have meant to limit it to a defense mechanism, but I think people do it for all sorts of reasons.

Projection is usually a defense mechanism where you project your own hidden psychological weaknesses onto other people so you can villify them instead of dealing with your own problems.

I think that what were actually looking for is called cognitive bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias). A cognitive bias is a form of filter that operates from within the mind and affect how we perceive the universe. There are multiple kinds of bias and most people tend to operate from the perception that other people are operating from the same bias. I think the particular one that is most appropriate would be confirmation bias.
In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and avoids information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs. I

Dee

[Gillianren]

But that's just using a different name for the same thing, isn't it?

I guess that's a trend that would reverse really fast if "sociopath" got tagged as a diagnosis that required removal from society in order to protect it.

A jerk can choose not to be a jerk. They can show respect for the feelings of other people; they just don't. A sociopath cannot feel empathy. A sociopath cannot choose not to be a sociopath. But, yeah, I don't think these guys are thinking the psychological ramifications through. It's one of the reasons I'm really careful about non-professional diagnoses.

[hhEb09'1]

Projection is usually a defense mechanism where you project your own hidden psychological weaknesses onto other people so you can villify them instead of dealing with your own problems.Not so much villify them as avoid dealing with your own. :)I think that what were actually looking for is called cognitive bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias). A cognitive bias is a form of filter that operates from within the mind and affect how we perceive the universe. There are multiple kinds of bias and most people tend to operate from the perception that other people are operating from the same bias. I think the particular one that is most appropriate would be confirmation bias. That doesn't seem to fit, to me. I think the one that fits best is projection bias. :)

From your link: The fact that some biases reflect motivation, and in particular the motivation to have positive attitudes to oneself[3] accounts for the fact that many biases are self-serving or self-directed (e.g. Illusion of asymmetric insight, Self-serving bias, Projection bias).

[mugaliens]

It's one of the reasons I'm really careful about non-professional diagnoses.

I've got more than my share of doubts about professional ones, too. Over the years I've known two perfectly normal friends of mine who were wrongly diagnosed. Unfortunately, once they were diagnosed, it took a herculanean effort and thousands of dollars for one of them to get it reversed. The medical community, particularly the mental health community, seems to think they or any of their fellow members are immune from error.

Talk about being in denial!

My respect for them may have been tarnished only by a few of them, but the actions of a few have been so heinous that I have grave doubts about the lot of them.

Ever since, I've trusted my non-professional common sense, and it hasn't let me down yet!

[tdvance]

A jerk can choose not to be a jerk. They can show respect for the feelings of other people; they just don't. A sociopath cannot feel empathy. A sociopath cannot choose not to be a sociopath. But, yeah, I don't think these guys are thinking the psychological ramifications through. It's one of the reasons I'm really careful about non-professional diagnoses.

I agree that a sociopath cannot choose to feel empathy. I do believe a sociopath can understand (assuming no significant mental retardation) and follow rules of society, so that the only time they're a jerk is by mistake (in which, when told so, would follow the societal rule of apologizing and attempting to make amends if possible). Actually, I've seen mentally retarded people follow all but the most "advanced" rules of etiquette, so maybe the parenthetical comment doesn't even apply.

[mugaliens]

That raises an interesting question, tdvance - if those of us at the lower end of the intelligent scale are capable of empathy and politeness, what the dickens is wrong with a sociopath who's unable to experience remorse because they never "get it" when it comes to the consequences of their actions?

[Euniculus]

Projection, and not unique to autism or any other mental condition.

[Gillianren]

Mugs, you're not at the lower end of the intelligence scale. I can tell, because you're capable of posting.

As to what causes sociopathology, we don't know yet. But there's a trigger of some kind missing that has nothing to do with intelligence, unless it's perhaps adversely.

[HenrikOlsen]

In my opinion, not being a sociopath is something learned fairly early in a child's development but it's not inherently there from the beginning.

[Jens]

In my opinion, not being a sociopath is something learned fairly early in a child's development but it's not inherently there from the beginning.

That makes sense to me. Babies are basically sociopaths (not meant in a bad way, I like babies a lot). But they scream when they don't get what they want, and show absolutely no conscious or awareness of anybody else's needs. So it may well be that not being a sociopath is something that most people learn. Or it might be a natural development to some extent, I don't know.

[tdvance]

well, humans aren't herdbeasts, but chimps do form troupes so we must be born with some instinct to join a society. I guess it could be thwarted, though, say by lack of experience with other humans at an early age.

[DrRocket]

Autistic could be a metaphor in some cases. I'm thinking of an example where a mathematician I know said some person was "just too autistic" to be useful in his organization--I'm nearly certain he's not clinically autistic. But he does have a lot of trouble realizing how he comes across to others (he behaves boorishly--overtly self-centered without realizing how that turns off those who might otherwise act on his behalf, such as superiors who decide promotions, in which department he works, etc.--it's like a dog biting the hand that feeds him, thinking that the food is just magically appearing in his bowl or something), suggesting this lack of empathy (or lack of ability to see himself as others see him) that is one symptom of autism. This mathematician knows well what autistic means and clearly was speaking metaphorically.

Your analysis sounds correct, but the supervisor (I assume he is a supervisor from your description) also sounds a little myopic. He would probably have no use for a John Nash either, and miss the benefits of a roaring genius, even if a bit "eccentric" (actually more than eccentric, a certified schizophrenic). If all crazy mathematicians were ostracized, the community might be kinda small. I think most of us are at least a little nuts.

BTW there is a good book on Nash's work (not A Beautiful Mind although the author, Nasar, did participate in the writing). It is The Essential John Nash edited by Harold Kuhn and Sylvia Nasar. This book contains much of his mathematics including his Ph.D. thesis on game theory and work on embeddings of manifolds.

[mugaliens]

Mugs, you're not at the lower end of the intelligence scale. I can tell, because you're capable of posting.

So is an acquaintance of mine with less than half my IQ. He posts, and sounds quite reasonable when he does.

As to what causes sociopathology, we don't know yet. But there's a trigger of some kind missing that has nothing to do with intelligence, unless it's perhaps adversely.

Could it be related to the self-protection mechanisms built into our prains which tend to prevent self-injury? I've heard that some forms of psychological conditions are the result of those mechanisms going into overdrive, such that basic self-defense mechanisms become the cause of OCD and borderline personality disorder behaviors, among others, behaviors which ultimately result in more harm, long-term.

[djustdee]

Greetings and Felicitations,

That makes sense to me. Babies are basically sociopaths (not meant in a bad way, I like babies a lot). But they scream when they don't get what they want, and show absolutely no conscious or awareness of anybody else's needs. So it may well be that not being a sociopath is something that most people learn. Or it might be a natural development to some extent, I don't know.

Nope, babies are barbarians. Gimme, gimme, gimme; Mine, mine; farting, burping, eating with their hands. This is why we keep them away from swords.

On a serious note. Babies aren't sociopaths. They scream because they have absolutely no form of communication other than crying to get your attention and then you have to figure out what they want from that.

Dee

[tdvance]

Your analysis sounds correct, but the supervisor (I assume he is a supervisor from your description) also sounds a little myopic. He would probably have no use for a John Nash either, and miss the benefits of a roaring genius, even if a bit "eccentric" (actually more than eccentric, a certified schizophrenic). If all crazy mathematicians were ostracized, the community might be kinda small. I think most of us are at least a little nuts.

BTW there is a good book on Nash's work (not A Beautiful Mind although the author, Nasar, did participate in the writing). It is The Essential John Nash edited by Harold Kuhn and Sylvia Nasar. This book contains much of his mathematics including his Ph.D. thesis on game theory and work on embeddings of manifolds.

He actually has lots of respect for Nash. This person was just a jerk, actually, who has produced little of value, but has plenty of vocal criticism for others' papers. (yeah, vocal, not quite autistic! But it was a metaphor). Much of his criticism was along the lines of "I'm the one who should be doing that--what claim do you have to the subject?"

[Gillianren]

So is an acquaintance of mine with less than half my IQ. He posts, and sounds quite reasonable when he does.

Unless your IQ is at least 140, I doubt this. Further, even that wouldn't make it the lower realms of IQ, which are below 50. And I can assure you that no one with an IQ below 50 would be able to post here, much less reasonably.

Could it be related to the self-protection mechanisms built into our prains which tend to prevent self-injury? I've heard that some forms of psychological conditions are the result of those mechanisms going into overdrive, such that basic self-defense mechanisms become the cause of OCD and borderline personality disorder behaviors, among others, behaviors which ultimately result in more harm, long-term.

It's possible, but we simply don't know. The focus these days seems to be on treating the treatable, not understanding the untreatable. Since my doctor said the dread four words Friday--"running out of options"--I'm kind of okay with that.

[davidlpf]

Well sometimes I feel like I have an IQ of 50 then I just go work.

[mugaliens]

Unless your IQ is at least 140, I doubt this.

:)

Further, even that wouldn't make it the lower realms of IQ, which are below 50.

By whose yardstick?

The focus these days seems to be on treating the treatable, not understanding the untreatable. Since my doctor said the dread four words Friday--"running out of options"--I'm kind of okay with that.

If it's any consolation, I finally told the doctors, teachers, and neighbors who continually, incessantly, tried to get my active son on medication, "He's a boy! Get over it!"

Can I help it if he was climbing the jungle gym when he was 10 months old? Sheesh! More power to him.

My point is that many in society would love it if we were all cut out of the same nice, predictible mold. In response, these expectations create an intense, and very unhealthy pressure to "fit in."

To heck with that! I'm unique and so is everyone else. If someone doesn't like that, they can go fly a kite.

I'm glad to hear you're sort of ok with what your doctor told you. That's certainly leaning in the right direction!

[Gillianren]

:)

70 is still above retarded, you know. It's hitting the border, but it isn't quite.

By whose yardstick?

Anyone who knows what they're talking about.

If it's any consolation, I finally told the doctors, teachers, and neighbors who continually, incessantly, tried to get my active son on medication, "He's a boy! Get over it!"

Why on Earth would that be a consolation? To know that you have, unilaterally, overrulted people who have studied the subject longer than you? Perhaps if you told me what medication and what condition, I might know more. However, since you apparently know more than everyone on every subject I've heard you discuss, I bow to your judgement.

Can I help it if he was climbing the jungle gym when he was 10 months old? Sheesh! More power to him.

I'd be greatly surprised if that were all it took.

My point is that many in society would love it if we were all cut out of the same nice, predictible mold. In response, these expectations create an intense, and very unhealthy pressure to "fit in."

That's as may be. However, that doesn't mean there aren't people with serious, even crippling problems. "You don't have to be like everyone else" isn't a helpful statement to a person in full-blown psychosis.

To heck with that! I'm unique and so is everyone else. If someone doesn't like that, they can go fly a kite.

Yes, because that's entirely the issue.

I'm glad to hear you're sort of ok with what your doctor told you. That's certainly leaning in the right direction!

I don't know what gave you that impression. In fact, neither of us are happy with what he told me. "Running out of options" means "we can't help you." It means that, barring new research, I will be incapable of holding a job. I will be tormented by the highs and lows which, bluntly, you cannot understand. This is not fun for me. At all. And I'm really, really not happy to be told that I am running out of options.

[captain swoop]

Calm down folks, lets keep it polite.

[mugaliens]

I don't know what gave you that impression.

The fact that you said, "I'm kind of okay with that."

[Gillianren]

The fact that you said, "I'm kind of okay with that."

I thought as much. What I said was that I'm okay with research going towards problems we can help treat.

[mugaliens]

What I said was that I'm okay with research going towards problems we can help treat.

I'm all for that.