malaidas
20-March-2009, 03:49 PM
This may seem like an odd first post from someone joining a site dediated to science and astronomy, and I certainly wont post many here save the occasional unavoidable knee jerks when I read something totally devoid of rationality. However in recognition that it was through investigating counter arguments to the spurious EU that I found this board I'll start out my board life by asking something which as a Brit has intrigued me for some time.
What is it about NASA which gets all the CTers in the USA so worked up. There seems to be more focus on NASA than the CIA as far as I can see and I admit I may well be wrong, certainly its always the NASA ones (with the exception of the twin towers one) which seem to make there way over to this side of the pond.
The thing is I simply can;t see what the problem is (with the exception of Roswell CT) there seems to be no grounds for the CT to even start out re NASA and even then thats more military than NASA and I thought the two were very much seperate organisations.
Before I begin however, as an introduction, I'm a biochemist and computer programmer, hailing from the Wirral just south of Liverpool, my interest in astronomy and physics in general is very much on an recreational basis with currently an only passing level of knowledge which I hope greatly to expand upon from discussions on this board.
ANyway in honour of what got me here I wish to add my 2 penny's worth on the 'Planet X' conspiricy theory. I've chosen this one becuase of the 'work' of James MCCanney which I also came into contact with whilst looking at the stuff on EU. Indeed its something which I personnally found rather offensive that whilst looking for his work on Plasma Cosmology/EU that I was exposed to such IMO meaningless drivel as I will attempt to show. As an aside I mention that not being an expert on Cosmology etc, this was the first indication that the work on PC/EU was probably pipe dreams, as Tim has conclusively proven to me with his sensical (if there is such a word) explanations on where the theory simply doesn;t match observation.
Anyway to the point.
In the next few paragraphs I will engage in a mental exercise and attempt to, using their own weapons, blow the CT about 'Planet X' wide open to question for anyone with half a brain who believes it. I do this as I said partially to simply get some anger off my chest, and partially to try and open the minds of at least a few believers to the implausibility of the truth. Please forgive any wild rides of fancy that may occur during this account, I believe I am justified in doing such during a CT build up. ALso I accept there are areas in this construct where I don't know and I will make these plain as I go along. Pleasae bear in mind that this is simply an exercise in thought and fun debate and probably not going to turn out as well as I hope, I just hope it hangs together, still it can;t be worse than the original CTs often are.
As any debate on such a CT as this is inevitably without visible evidence, part of the power it has to win over the gullible a\s no counter evidence can be given to prove it wrong. Therefore I will start out by attempting to build a case from which some kind of rational belief in NASA as engaged in Cover ups can be logically supported and then I will show how, that the very existence of this framework pretty much precludes the existence of Planet X, unless you simply start with the concept out of nowhere that NASA is an evil enterprise.
The first thing we need is evidence of a cover up in NASAs history to provide some evidence that the government is hushing things up from a NASA perspective. I deliberately ignore any other agency in this rebuttal as we need evidence that the US government considers space an area where information must be controlled. If we lack a single evidence case for the existence of cover ups, their existence must be questioned. If you are a true scientist no matter how ATM you are, you must accept this. In the absence of any evidence to back up a theory, you cannot accept the theory as correct. In the presence of credible evidence to the oposite the theory must be abandoned, unless the theory can be readilly adapted to match.
Now obviously there is a great candiate here from the CTers point of view.... The corner stone of Space Age Conspircy... Roswell. As I see it, this is the only real evidence of a coverup where there have been multiple somewhat respectable 'whistle blowers' and where there is a credible point to say something was covered up even if we don;t know what. The Moon Landing simply doesn't work, it lacks scientific and observational backing and would be more diffuclt to pull off than say going to the moon.
SO let us assume that a UFO was found at Roswell and that they did keep hold of this and they have kept it a secret (THere is I admit a lot of possibilities here which I haven;t covered, such as ET deals etc). What does this tell us. Well firstly that they are willing to cover one thing up, so what about other things. However it also tells us that they have at their disposal technology far in advance of our own, or at very leat in advance of what we have even today. This technology by definition must include the ability to make at least interplanetary flight. Assuming that they are only Martian or I supose Venitian in origin (I disinclude the possibility of moon based life here as we have been there and the evidence alone is enough to proove this as fact and we saw no life. Plus two many amature/professional astronomers have been observing the moon for far to long not to have seen some sign as far as I can see. Now we know that no life has been found on Mars and Venus is far to hot right, but of course this is CT and NASA so lets assume the evidence (which is based upon data that they get to filter) cannot be trusted. It doesn't make a difference. If UFO exist and based upon observation on their apparent behaviour tells us that they can travel very fast and if they visiot here regularly (which if the observations are correct in places like Arizona they do) they must be able to travel very fast between here and home (hours or a week or so at most I would have thought), which if we assume is only Mars or Venus then thats still means a fair rate of knots. Where do I get these figures from. Well its an estrapolated guess of course, but I figure that Aliens will need to eat still, there is unsufficent space in the ships to have a self sufficient food source so they must carry it with them, this puts a definite maximum on how long they can be away for and a week or 2 is the best we manage in tanks etc which don;t need minimal weight and maxiumum space usage for the systems. Tell you what, I'll be generous and allow for indefinite periods by allowing some form of enrgy synthesis into food like Star Trek. I'll allow that they don;t need to ever get out. Still we can manage the distance to Mars in a few months and based upon what they can manage in an atmosphere they will still likely have much faster drives than this in the almost vacume of space.
Lets not get too caught up on the capabilities of the craft though. The iomportant point is this. Whether or not the ship was functional when it was rescued there would be enough to go on for the scientists to have a working copy by this day. AFterall they've had over half a century. This ship provides the ability to go into outer space and this is important.
So how does this relate to Planet X. Lets summarise shall we. A huge plnetoid is entering our solar system, too distant to be seen outsaide of space based telescopes of NASA at the moment. This is on a collision course with earth and will wipe us out. The assumption here is that NASA is keeping it hidden, to stop panic and alarm. There is a precedent they kept Roswell hidden to prevent panic and alarm.
OK here is our CT how do we knock it down... There are numerous easy ways to do it, but I'm going to do it the hard way, by simply applying logical deduction upon the facts as stated which will show that the existence of the Roswell CT makes Planet X highly unlikely and that in the absence of Roswell this CT has no grounds at all, as I said earlier Roswell is the cornerstone on which any NASA conspiricy in the absence of evidence must hang for credibility. There is no direct evidence for Planet X, this is the whole reason why its a conspiricy.
So let us assume there is this big planet heading toward us and likely to impact causing an Extinction Level Event. What does the government do about it. Well Self presevation alone must dictate they do something. What are their options. Well on the one hand they could dig a deep bunker and hope to god that shockwaves don;t kill them. They can fleee with the aliens to Mars etc, leaving the rest of mankind to die horribly, yet now as refugees having nothing. Or they can use that nice fast UFO to intercept Planet X and do something about it. WHich option will they choose. Well given the existence of options 2 and 3, Option 1 is out of the question. The latter will leave them in power, with their economies etc intact amnd beholden to noone the former will leave them with nothing, so the latter will be chosen if possible. We already know that it is very possible to move the planets course if we can get a nuclear device to the planet in time. It just needs to be big enough and we have the UFO which can get us there. OK we need to be able to transport the device and the UFO may not have room. So what we have the UFO we can size it up.
Now comes the problem however, they cannot easilly do this without letting people on earth know that they covered something up. Why not. Well There are 2 major problems. No one blast will be enough to completely change the course of the asteroid so we will need several blasts at correct points to cortrectly change its vector of motion if they want it to not still pass within telescope range of people on earth (breaking the cover up) and if they do these blasts there is no way they will be able to hide the blasts from view unless they hide behind a planet. I doubt that it will be possible to make all the chnages whilst still in cover although I guess this is theoretically possible. given occlusion is a cone and the distances involved between say jupiter and earth and the heliopause plus I guess I can;t be sure that such would be visible from the range we are talking about, but you take my point I hope. Finally we have the problme of launching the craft without being seen from the ground... OK a cloaking device. But why dont we see cloaking devices in military devices, either directly or indirectly. The technology would certainly been noticed and reported on by someone and not conclusively debunked. There are all sorts of problems. The same is true of any technology on the ship to invisibly alter the course of the planet. Its usage would have been observed and there have been no persuaving evidence for this.
So we have a situation whereby in all probablity trying to deal with the problem will blow open the cover up on planet X and the Roswell incident. Not dealing with the problem in this way is not a viable option. Can you really see such 'evil' people submitting to being refugees or taking a chance on their lives and loosing their livelyhoods anyway just to keep a secret. Its a no brainer, they will act if they can out of self instinct if nothing else and this would likely blow their cover up, either by not completely keeping Planet X out of visible range or by using devices which will be visible to radiotelescopes etc. Of course the telescopes would have to be facing the correct way. But there are people such as yourselves looking for Planet X.
There is of course the possibility that we can't do anything about it which is why they are keeping hush hush. However this invalidates the assumption that Roswell occured and thus as I said giving no grounds for the shadow side of NASA to be considered.
If the above doesn;t make a point then consider the following
1) There are many near misses which NASA has faithfully warned us about
2) The effort of keeping this hidden are huge and even more so if we assume that there is something they can do about it and in the absence of a UFO, NASA could still do something about it, although there would need to be a longer time scale. Regardless of its size, any orbit Past say Jupiter (perhpas closer) would likely be enough to make the planet miss us. I'm no expert here as I said, but I'm preety sure all they need is an explosion which is small enough not to shatter the planetoid but enough to overcome its inertia and change its velocity by a relatively small amount. Without the UFO there is no way that they could keep it hidden however, by the time they could reach it (and this ignored the logistics of managing secret space launches) it would be visible to the world
4) NASA usually reports things accurately enough to convince the majority of people including field experts both in mainstream and legitimate honest ATM work. If there was doctoring it would be noticed. TO my knowledge, only those who have been previously hurt by NASA or who follow very wacky and none scientific work or who have a vested interest in selling a story provide the continuing 'evidence' that NASA is corrupt.
Now I've had my fun and no it didn't turn out as well as I hoped, I will, if there are any doubts left blow it open once and for all the easy way. What is the point. Lets deal with the real world here. We have the technology to prevent the impact, we have the time to do something about it. It doesn;t even need a manned launch. If we have a UFO all the better, but they wont use it for risk of blowing open the cover up of Roswell and if not then Planet X will be visible before we can do anything about it. EVen if they decided to simply send the rockets out without us seeing planet X, there would be observations of such being launched into outer space, or from the Space Station (star wars project) call it what you like. The changes are that someone would see the launches. The whole cover up would blow up in their faces, except in that small chance of being able to launch a captured alien craft, pilot it outside of visible range and then without being seen from earth set off devices which will divert the planet. That is a huge undertaking which is much more risky than telling us that yes something is coming, but we are already doing things about it, it wont impact and we have allowed for a safety margin in case. The bottom line is that it doesn;t make any sense whatsoever. There is no motive to keep it secret and a much greater motive not to.
Edited to add a single word I missed out.
What is it about NASA which gets all the CTers in the USA so worked up. There seems to be more focus on NASA than the CIA as far as I can see and I admit I may well be wrong, certainly its always the NASA ones (with the exception of the twin towers one) which seem to make there way over to this side of the pond.
The thing is I simply can;t see what the problem is (with the exception of Roswell CT) there seems to be no grounds for the CT to even start out re NASA and even then thats more military than NASA and I thought the two were very much seperate organisations.
Before I begin however, as an introduction, I'm a biochemist and computer programmer, hailing from the Wirral just south of Liverpool, my interest in astronomy and physics in general is very much on an recreational basis with currently an only passing level of knowledge which I hope greatly to expand upon from discussions on this board.
ANyway in honour of what got me here I wish to add my 2 penny's worth on the 'Planet X' conspiricy theory. I've chosen this one becuase of the 'work' of James MCCanney which I also came into contact with whilst looking at the stuff on EU. Indeed its something which I personnally found rather offensive that whilst looking for his work on Plasma Cosmology/EU that I was exposed to such IMO meaningless drivel as I will attempt to show. As an aside I mention that not being an expert on Cosmology etc, this was the first indication that the work on PC/EU was probably pipe dreams, as Tim has conclusively proven to me with his sensical (if there is such a word) explanations on where the theory simply doesn;t match observation.
Anyway to the point.
In the next few paragraphs I will engage in a mental exercise and attempt to, using their own weapons, blow the CT about 'Planet X' wide open to question for anyone with half a brain who believes it. I do this as I said partially to simply get some anger off my chest, and partially to try and open the minds of at least a few believers to the implausibility of the truth. Please forgive any wild rides of fancy that may occur during this account, I believe I am justified in doing such during a CT build up. ALso I accept there are areas in this construct where I don't know and I will make these plain as I go along. Pleasae bear in mind that this is simply an exercise in thought and fun debate and probably not going to turn out as well as I hope, I just hope it hangs together, still it can;t be worse than the original CTs often are.
As any debate on such a CT as this is inevitably without visible evidence, part of the power it has to win over the gullible a\s no counter evidence can be given to prove it wrong. Therefore I will start out by attempting to build a case from which some kind of rational belief in NASA as engaged in Cover ups can be logically supported and then I will show how, that the very existence of this framework pretty much precludes the existence of Planet X, unless you simply start with the concept out of nowhere that NASA is an evil enterprise.
The first thing we need is evidence of a cover up in NASAs history to provide some evidence that the government is hushing things up from a NASA perspective. I deliberately ignore any other agency in this rebuttal as we need evidence that the US government considers space an area where information must be controlled. If we lack a single evidence case for the existence of cover ups, their existence must be questioned. If you are a true scientist no matter how ATM you are, you must accept this. In the absence of any evidence to back up a theory, you cannot accept the theory as correct. In the presence of credible evidence to the oposite the theory must be abandoned, unless the theory can be readilly adapted to match.
Now obviously there is a great candiate here from the CTers point of view.... The corner stone of Space Age Conspircy... Roswell. As I see it, this is the only real evidence of a coverup where there have been multiple somewhat respectable 'whistle blowers' and where there is a credible point to say something was covered up even if we don;t know what. The Moon Landing simply doesn't work, it lacks scientific and observational backing and would be more diffuclt to pull off than say going to the moon.
SO let us assume that a UFO was found at Roswell and that they did keep hold of this and they have kept it a secret (THere is I admit a lot of possibilities here which I haven;t covered, such as ET deals etc). What does this tell us. Well firstly that they are willing to cover one thing up, so what about other things. However it also tells us that they have at their disposal technology far in advance of our own, or at very leat in advance of what we have even today. This technology by definition must include the ability to make at least interplanetary flight. Assuming that they are only Martian or I supose Venitian in origin (I disinclude the possibility of moon based life here as we have been there and the evidence alone is enough to proove this as fact and we saw no life. Plus two many amature/professional astronomers have been observing the moon for far to long not to have seen some sign as far as I can see. Now we know that no life has been found on Mars and Venus is far to hot right, but of course this is CT and NASA so lets assume the evidence (which is based upon data that they get to filter) cannot be trusted. It doesn't make a difference. If UFO exist and based upon observation on their apparent behaviour tells us that they can travel very fast and if they visiot here regularly (which if the observations are correct in places like Arizona they do) they must be able to travel very fast between here and home (hours or a week or so at most I would have thought), which if we assume is only Mars or Venus then thats still means a fair rate of knots. Where do I get these figures from. Well its an estrapolated guess of course, but I figure that Aliens will need to eat still, there is unsufficent space in the ships to have a self sufficient food source so they must carry it with them, this puts a definite maximum on how long they can be away for and a week or 2 is the best we manage in tanks etc which don;t need minimal weight and maxiumum space usage for the systems. Tell you what, I'll be generous and allow for indefinite periods by allowing some form of enrgy synthesis into food like Star Trek. I'll allow that they don;t need to ever get out. Still we can manage the distance to Mars in a few months and based upon what they can manage in an atmosphere they will still likely have much faster drives than this in the almost vacume of space.
Lets not get too caught up on the capabilities of the craft though. The iomportant point is this. Whether or not the ship was functional when it was rescued there would be enough to go on for the scientists to have a working copy by this day. AFterall they've had over half a century. This ship provides the ability to go into outer space and this is important.
So how does this relate to Planet X. Lets summarise shall we. A huge plnetoid is entering our solar system, too distant to be seen outsaide of space based telescopes of NASA at the moment. This is on a collision course with earth and will wipe us out. The assumption here is that NASA is keeping it hidden, to stop panic and alarm. There is a precedent they kept Roswell hidden to prevent panic and alarm.
OK here is our CT how do we knock it down... There are numerous easy ways to do it, but I'm going to do it the hard way, by simply applying logical deduction upon the facts as stated which will show that the existence of the Roswell CT makes Planet X highly unlikely and that in the absence of Roswell this CT has no grounds at all, as I said earlier Roswell is the cornerstone on which any NASA conspiricy in the absence of evidence must hang for credibility. There is no direct evidence for Planet X, this is the whole reason why its a conspiricy.
So let us assume there is this big planet heading toward us and likely to impact causing an Extinction Level Event. What does the government do about it. Well Self presevation alone must dictate they do something. What are their options. Well on the one hand they could dig a deep bunker and hope to god that shockwaves don;t kill them. They can fleee with the aliens to Mars etc, leaving the rest of mankind to die horribly, yet now as refugees having nothing. Or they can use that nice fast UFO to intercept Planet X and do something about it. WHich option will they choose. Well given the existence of options 2 and 3, Option 1 is out of the question. The latter will leave them in power, with their economies etc intact amnd beholden to noone the former will leave them with nothing, so the latter will be chosen if possible. We already know that it is very possible to move the planets course if we can get a nuclear device to the planet in time. It just needs to be big enough and we have the UFO which can get us there. OK we need to be able to transport the device and the UFO may not have room. So what we have the UFO we can size it up.
Now comes the problem however, they cannot easilly do this without letting people on earth know that they covered something up. Why not. Well There are 2 major problems. No one blast will be enough to completely change the course of the asteroid so we will need several blasts at correct points to cortrectly change its vector of motion if they want it to not still pass within telescope range of people on earth (breaking the cover up) and if they do these blasts there is no way they will be able to hide the blasts from view unless they hide behind a planet. I doubt that it will be possible to make all the chnages whilst still in cover although I guess this is theoretically possible. given occlusion is a cone and the distances involved between say jupiter and earth and the heliopause plus I guess I can;t be sure that such would be visible from the range we are talking about, but you take my point I hope. Finally we have the problme of launching the craft without being seen from the ground... OK a cloaking device. But why dont we see cloaking devices in military devices, either directly or indirectly. The technology would certainly been noticed and reported on by someone and not conclusively debunked. There are all sorts of problems. The same is true of any technology on the ship to invisibly alter the course of the planet. Its usage would have been observed and there have been no persuaving evidence for this.
So we have a situation whereby in all probablity trying to deal with the problem will blow open the cover up on planet X and the Roswell incident. Not dealing with the problem in this way is not a viable option. Can you really see such 'evil' people submitting to being refugees or taking a chance on their lives and loosing their livelyhoods anyway just to keep a secret. Its a no brainer, they will act if they can out of self instinct if nothing else and this would likely blow their cover up, either by not completely keeping Planet X out of visible range or by using devices which will be visible to radiotelescopes etc. Of course the telescopes would have to be facing the correct way. But there are people such as yourselves looking for Planet X.
There is of course the possibility that we can't do anything about it which is why they are keeping hush hush. However this invalidates the assumption that Roswell occured and thus as I said giving no grounds for the shadow side of NASA to be considered.
If the above doesn;t make a point then consider the following
1) There are many near misses which NASA has faithfully warned us about
2) The effort of keeping this hidden are huge and even more so if we assume that there is something they can do about it and in the absence of a UFO, NASA could still do something about it, although there would need to be a longer time scale. Regardless of its size, any orbit Past say Jupiter (perhpas closer) would likely be enough to make the planet miss us. I'm no expert here as I said, but I'm preety sure all they need is an explosion which is small enough not to shatter the planetoid but enough to overcome its inertia and change its velocity by a relatively small amount. Without the UFO there is no way that they could keep it hidden however, by the time they could reach it (and this ignored the logistics of managing secret space launches) it would be visible to the world
4) NASA usually reports things accurately enough to convince the majority of people including field experts both in mainstream and legitimate honest ATM work. If there was doctoring it would be noticed. TO my knowledge, only those who have been previously hurt by NASA or who follow very wacky and none scientific work or who have a vested interest in selling a story provide the continuing 'evidence' that NASA is corrupt.
Now I've had my fun and no it didn't turn out as well as I hoped, I will, if there are any doubts left blow it open once and for all the easy way. What is the point. Lets deal with the real world here. We have the technology to prevent the impact, we have the time to do something about it. It doesn;t even need a manned launch. If we have a UFO all the better, but they wont use it for risk of blowing open the cover up of Roswell and if not then Planet X will be visible before we can do anything about it. EVen if they decided to simply send the rockets out without us seeing planet X, there would be observations of such being launched into outer space, or from the Space Station (star wars project) call it what you like. The changes are that someone would see the launches. The whole cover up would blow up in their faces, except in that small chance of being able to launch a captured alien craft, pilot it outside of visible range and then without being seen from earth set off devices which will divert the planet. That is a huge undertaking which is much more risky than telling us that yes something is coming, but we are already doing things about it, it wont impact and we have allowed for a safety margin in case. The bottom line is that it doesn;t make any sense whatsoever. There is no motive to keep it secret and a much greater motive not to.
Edited to add a single word I missed out.