Tipping in the USA

[clop]

Greetings from an English-born Australian resident currently working on business in Santa Clara, California.

I am totally confused with regards to this tipping lark. However, I know that there are a lot of Americans on this board and I'm hoping that you will be able to offer me some guidance and put me on the right path. I have absolutely no idea what I am doing.

An hour ago I ordered room service. When the man delivered the food he handed me a docket to sign - the docket listed a "Room Service Charge" of 19%, which seemed awfully expensive to me. He looked at me as though he was waiting for something so I asked him directly if I was supposed to tip him as well. He said, "it's up to you." Does that mean that I'm supposed to give him even more money?

In South Australia (and Northern England) tipping is virtually non-existent unless someone has done something outstanding. When I delivered pizzas for a living the tips were a rare bonus not an expectation.

Now I find that I'm supposed to tip the lady who cleans my room as well? Is this true? Isn't the hotel paying the employees? Do I have to pay them as well? Do I have tip everyone I deal with?

Perplexed,

clop

[Studioguy]

Tipping is customary on many services like you've described. I never order room service anymore when I'm on the road, but when I would (rarely) I would tip the person who delivered it a couple of dollars. I've never left a tip for the maid unless I've asked for something special or left a particular mess.*

I always tip waiters and waitresses 20% of the bill if I'm out with my family, but not that much if I go somewhere by myself, which is also rare. If a server is particularly good, I may go a bit more. If they're particularly bad, I'll ask for the manager.

We have a confusing thing anytime we go to a particular fast-food drive-in here in town. Basically, you drive into a parking space, roll down your window and talk into a box to place your order. Then a person walks it out to you (or roller skates sometimes). We're always confused as to whether we're suppose to tip those people because some of them will linger for a second while others will hand over your food and change then run off before you have a chance.

It's probably worth noting that many service jobs like waiting tables and delivering pizzas are largely paid by tips. I believe in both of those cases, the employees are only paid 1/2 of minimum wage and are expected to earn the other half in tips. They're required to report those tips and if they DON'T make enough to cover the minimum wage then their employer has to cover it. If that happens too often the person can probably count on losing their job.

*On one occasion I was working on a bunch of wiring stuff in the evenings, so the garbage can was full of PVC jacketing and the floor was covered in a million tiny pieces of copper wire fibers that didn't hit the garbage.

On another occasion I worked out a deal with the maid where every Friday she would do my laundry. I was there for 8 weeks, working 7x12's and it was awesome to just come in on Friday night and find my clothes washed and folded and/or hung in the closet. I pinned a $20 bill to my bag on Friday mornings and voila...what a deal!

[sarongsong]

We've been over this one before: Tipping (http://www.bautforum.com/off-topic-babbling/60558-tipping.html#post1010051) :)

(Sure sounds like that room service waiter is double-dipping, though.)

[samkent]

At TGI Fridays the pay is $2.25/hr. Plus 10% of your sales is added to calculate a theoretical pay for the week. You don’t get this 10% but they withhold income taxes based on this theoretical pay. The more you sell the more they remove from your paycheck. Then they withhold $75 every paycheck (two weeks) for medical insurance.
The result is NO PAYCHECK! You live entirely on your tips.

[clop]

It's probably worth noting that many service jobs like waiting tables and delivering pizzas are largely paid by tips. I believe in both of those cases, the employees are only paid 1/2 of minimum wage and are expected to earn the other half in tips. They're required to report those tips and if they DON'T make enough to cover the minimum wage then their employer has to cover it. If that happens too often the person can probably count on losing their job.

But then surely this is something the employee needs to take up with the employer's payroll department? The employee is working for the employer therefore the working contract should be between them. I am already paying for the food so why am I also expected to subsidise the employer's labour costs? I always thought that tipping was traditionally an incentive mechanism for rewarding excellent service, but if I'm expected to tip willy nilly the incentive is lost. I've had taxi drivers in Australia refuse tips because they find it offensive! They feel affronted that I am suggesting that they are doing their job well only because I am tipping them. If tips are counted in the employee's salary there will come a time where employers will pay no money at all! And employees will make all their money in tips! :doh:

clop

[Ronald Brak]

It gets even more confusing for Australians. Aparently one doesn't tip for especially bad service in the US, but in practice this seems to apply to problems that are outside the wait person's control.

[Studioguy]

If tips are counted in the employee's salary there will come a time where employers will pay no money at all! And employees will make all their money in tips! :doh:

clop


There already are jobs like that. In fact, bartenders often times have to pay part of their tips to the house for the privilege!

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but it's a custom that goes way back before I became an active economic participant.

[Tinaa]

If service is good we tip at least 20% and many times much more. It really makes a waitperson's day to get a good tip. Consider it as an act of kindness.

[Doodler]

Tip the cleaning staff? Never done it, myself. The list of tipped service personnel I'm aware of are as follows:

Room service, food delivery, wait staff, bartenders, exotic dancers, cab drivers, valets, and the kids who work at grocery stores that help you load your car (even those stores that discourage the practice, for whatever reason).

Not an exhaustive list, but it covers the bases I encounter.

As far as cabbies go, some of them are NOT employees of the companies in question, they're so-called "statutory employees". Its a screwball little arrangement the Feds came up with for people who basically set their own hours, while giving the employee the benefit of not being slammed royally by taxes if they were a traditional 1099 subcontractor.

Their tips, in this case, is their income, while the company covers expenses like gas, insurance and vehicle maintenance via reimbursements.

[Gillianren]

But then surely this is something the employee needs to take up with the employer's payroll department? The employee is working for the employer therefore the working contract should be between them. I am already paying for the food so why am I also expected to subsidise the employer's labour costs? I always thought that tipping was traditionally an incentive mechanism for rewarding excellent service, but if I'm expected to tip willy nilly the incentive is lost. I've had taxi drivers in Australia refuse tips because they find it offensive! They feel affronted that I am suggesting that they are doing their job well only because I am tipping them. If tips are counted in the employee's salary there will come a time where employers will pay no money at all! And employees will make all their money in tips! :doh:

Well, you pretty much are already subsidizing the employer's labour costs regardless. Whether the costs of meals are or are not lower due to the American tipping system is an interesting discussion I'm not really qualified to have. However, the reason the employee doesn't take it up with payroll is that it's an excellent way to get fired.

For the record, I once worked as a hotel housekeeper, albeit briefly. Tipping in those hotels was considered completely voluntary. The job paid a little above minimum wage, and no one especially counted on the tips. I hardly ever got any myself--and the fun trick was that, where I worked, you weren't assigned to the same room every day, so the tip envelope the customer left out wouldn't necessarily go to the person who'd actually provided the service.

[Ronald Brak]

If service is good we tip at least 20% and many times much more. It really makes a waitperson's day to get a good tip. Consider it as an act of kindness.

It's an act of kindness in the US, but here it can be an insult, so it can be quite stressful for Australians. Also, having people be nice to you in order to get money can seem wrong to us. Sort of like prostituition. I suppose we draw the line between business exchanges and emotional exchanges in a different place. In Australia if you want the staff to be nice to you, you have to be nice to them, which I think keeps people on a more equal footing.

[Studioguy]

I don't consider tipping to be an act of kindness. I consider it to be a substantive way of thanking someone for good service. If part of that service is to be courteous and prompt with the food and drinks, then I appreciate it when they do a good job and I want to show that. I will generally TELL the person I appreciate their good work too, if I get the chance.

Not that I'm an expert, but since someone else mentioned them, exotic dancers are generally not paid a wage either. They only make tips and have to give a percentage to the house. They also have to sell a certain amount of alcohol to keep their "spot" at the place. (oddly enough, I learned that working on a set of records for a guy who owned a few "gentlemen's clubs" in the dfw area)

[sarongsong]

But then surely this is something the employee needs to take up with the employer's payroll department?...What's to take up? It's not like the employee didn't know the compensation arrangement before taking the job.

[JonClarke]

It's an act of kindness in the US, but here it can be an insult, so it can be quite stressful for Australians. Also, having people be nice to you in order to get money can seem wrong to us. Sort of like prostituition. I suppose we draw the line between business exchanges and emotional exchanges in a different place. In Australia if you want the staff to be nice to you, you have to be nice to them, which I think keeps people on a more equal footing.

Tell me about it! On my recent trip to the US I suffered more angst and got more dirty looks over my tipping practice than when driving in peak hour traffic.

[Nicolas]

"Tipping", I always smile when I see the word. This is because in Dutch, "tippelen" means something completely different even though it also involves getting money for services and, well, I've got that joy forever thing.

[clop]

It's an act of kindness in the US, but here it can be an insult, so it can be quite stressful for Australians. Also, having people be nice to you in order to get money can seem wrong to us. Sort of like prostituition. I suppose we draw the line between business exchanges and emotional exchanges in a different place. In Australia if you want the staff to be nice to you, you have to be nice to them, which I think keeps people on a more equal footing.

It's a different world here in the USA Ronald. In Australia I work in the service industry and I (along with my colleagues) go to the most incredible lengths to make our customers happy. We don't see a cent from the customers of course, because providing good service is my job and it's what my employer is paying me for. If a customer writes a letter of commendation (and they often do) it means a lot more to me than a $10 note. I'd be offended if someone offered me money, and I certainly wouldn't take it, even if it weren't prohibited by policy.

However, I will try to follow the advice I've been given while I'm here.

clop

[Cougar]

An hour ago I ordered room service. When the man delivered the food he handed me a docket to sign - the docket listed a "Room Service Charge" of 19%, which seemed awfully expensive to me. He looked at me as though he was waiting for something so I asked him directly if I was supposed to tip him as well. He said, "it's up to you." Does that mean that I'm supposed to give him even more money?

No - as you noticed, they automatically add in the tip for room service.

[chrissy]

He said, "it's up to you."

There is the clue clop, Won't part wi' 'is brass if 'e can 'elp it. :) I agree though, if your already paying for the service why pay again and don't order room service either if you can help it.

[kleindoofy]

Ok, now we know how to tip a waitress, but how do you tip a cow? :confused:

[tdvance]

Usually, unless it's included in the bill, a tip is completely optional (in the sense of: providing this information is optional, but failure to do so will result in court martial). It's optional, if you don't care what others think of you and don't expect this person to give you good service in the future, or don't care if they make a living or not, etc.

But, to stay within custom, usually it's 20% (used to be 15, but more and more restaurants "advise" 20% and it's close to what people usually tip anymore) rounded up to the next dollar (generally considered "stingy" to compute to the penny and pay to the penny). (So, buy a $2.00 beer, pay $3.00 for it, not $2.40).

In general, the tip is for "personal service", like a waiter, taxi driver, houskeeping, etc. Though "cashier" in the supermarket is not considered a personal service. You tip baggers only if they take the bags out to your car for you. In these cases, it's not so much a percentage of the cost as, just a couple dollars (I've heard $1 per bag). So if you buy $100.00 groceries, you don't need to tip $20.00.

For a taxi driver, my formula is 20% (rounded so I'm not dealing in change) plus $1 per bag if they carry my luggage for me.

In reality, most people have their own formulas, which might be more or less generous than the "usual". "Usual" probably belongs in quotes, because the "usual" is probably higher than the true average--a bit optimistic, maybe, but it does reflect the average among that subset of society aspiring to be "gentlemen" (fewer and fewer all the time) in their behavior.

How do potential tip receivers behave if "shorted"? Depends largely on how tight management controls them--if management has tight control, you see a lot of "subtle rudeness"--nothing you could actually find words to complain to management for. I witnessed that (not for tipping, but someone at my table that I hope I never eat with again, who behaved like a boor) at Hard Rock Cafe in Miami once. The waiter behaved obsequiously toward this person, with just enough "over acting" as to be mocking him. If management doesn't control so tightly, the rudeness becomes rather un-subtle.

[geonuc]

clop, I know that tipping customs may seem confusing, but they are part of the system we have for compensating service people for their services. Tipping a server is optional in the sense that you will not be arrested for theft if you fail to do so, but is not optional by any other measure. It's part of how servers are paid.

With respect to room service, the 19% was the base charge for delivering the food, with a customary 'couple of bucks' to be handed over upon delivery. It's almost a ritual. Sure, the service charge could be increased to cover the expected tip, just as food prices could be higher to pay restaurant servers a decent per hour wage, but that just isn't the system that's evolved.

[clop]

clop, I know that tipping customs may seem confusing, but they are part of the system we have for compensating service people for their services. Tipping a server is optional in the sense that you will not be arrested for theft if you fail to do so, but is not optional by any other measure. It's part of how servers are paid.

With respect to room service, the 19% was the base charge for delivering the food, with a customary 'couple of bucks' to be handed over upon delivery. It's almost a ritual. Sure, the service charge could be increased to cover the expected tip, just as food prices could be higher to pay restaurant servers a decent per hour wage, but that just isn't the system that's evolved.

Thanks geonuc, so I did do it wrong then. I only paid the 19%. I didn't give him any extra money. He'll probably spit in my soup next time. Reminds me of a restaurant in Sydney that put faeces in someone's icecream to get them back for complaining about something during the meal. :sad:

clop

[Tobin Dax]

Ok, now we know how to tip a waitress, but how do you tip a cow? :confused:
I usually tip a cow about 25%. I don't want to be on the business end of a hoof. :)

[Tog_]

I work in a hotel that is similar to a Holiday Inn Express. No bell hops, doorman, or concierge, but not a Motel 6. It's rare for people at the desk to get tips, even when we help out in ways that go far beyond what a desk person should be expected to do.

Housekeepers will often get tips, but as was said before, they don't always clean the same room, so a person that has been here for a few weeks might bring up an envelope with instructions that it be split up. When this happens the housekeeping manager will look to see who was assigned to that room each day and divide it up accordingly. We also have one housekeeper that is so disturbingly honest that he accidentally broke one of those 1 dollar foam coolers and left five bucks to the guest to replace it. He would split the money if it was clear that it was for everyone that did that room.

Here (in Utah), the tax in restaurants is about 7.5% so the practice is to just double the tax to figure the tip. I tend to use that as a baseline for average service then adjust up or down accordingly.

I have a friend who had been a delivery driver for various pizza places for years. Her view on tipping is that it's not optional at all. She remembers the people that tip regularly, and if they place an order that ends up in a stack with 6 others, they get theirs first.

Exotic dancers work only for tips, which was mentioned above. My information from this comes from a dancer that was in a martial arts class I used to take.

If the GF and I go somewhere where we're not sure if we should tip or not, we'll look to see what everyone else is doing.

[Nicolas]

Ok, now we know how to tip a waitress, but how do you tip a cow? :confused:

Three strong men pushing simultaneously on one side of the cow should be able to tip it.

[Spock Jenkins]

Clop,

Not only is tipping confusing in the U.S., it's regional. In some places it's customary to tip anyone and everyone for seemingly any and all services. In others, it's limited to wait staff a pizza delivery. Fortunately, I live in the latter. I'm sure it's customary to tip a cab driver, but people almost never take them here - so I don't know for sure.

I've heard that in some places you tip your plumber, garbage man, postal worker, electrician, you name it. Any and all services expect to be paid above and beyond the rates they already charge.

I always order pizza for pick up. Get's here just as fast and no tip. Still bugs me that the "tip" line is one the receipt no matter what level of service they actually provide.

Salons and barber shops expect tips too. Not a fan of that practice either. If you have an coupon, do you tip based on the regular price, or on the price charged? Do you have to follow 20% here, or is it just a dollar or two?

[pumpkinpie]

I always order pizza for pick up. Get's here just as fast and no tip. Still bugs me that the "tip" line is one the receipt no matter what level of service they actually provide.
Another place it's confusing is when you go to a restaurant that has take out along with dine in. Placing a call, going to the store and paying at the register requires less service by the employee than waiting on a table, yet the tip line is there. I usually feel a tad guilty not giving one.

Salons and barber shops expect tips too. Not a fan of that practice either. If you have an coupon, do you tip based on the regular price, or on the price charged? Do you have to follow 20% here, or is it just a dollar or two?
Ditto on the first. My stylist gets $40 for spending 30-45 minutes with me. That's a good income. But ya gotta do it...
WRT coupons, you tip on the regular price. Just because you paid less for it, doesn't mean they did any less work. :lol:

[Amber Robot]

I am against the practice of tipping and wish it could be done away with like in other countries. I don't like that it is an 'obligatory' and not a 'gratuity' like it used to be called. I also get confused about who I should tip and how much and I'm sure that over the years I've upset many a service worker by my lack of tipping.

[Spock Jenkins]

Another place it's confusing is when you go to a restaurant that has take out along with dine in. Placing a call, going to the store and paying at the register requires less service by the employee than waiting on a table, yet the tip line is there. I usually feel a tad guilty not giving one.

If I'm going in to pick up, I don't tip. If I'm getting curb-side service, I'll leave a dollar (or two in bad weather).

[Gillianren]

Another place it's confusing is when you go to a restaurant that has take out along with dine in. Placing a call, going to the store and paying at the register requires less service by the employee than waiting on a table, yet the tip line is there. I usually feel a tad guilty not giving one.

The tip line is there because they only have one program that prints out the receipts.

[Spock Jenkins]

Not that I'm an expert, but since someone else mentioned them, exotic dancers are generally not paid a wage either. They only make tips and have to give a percentage to the house. They also have to sell a certain amount of alcohol to keep their "spot" at the place. (oddly enough, I learned that working on a set of records for a guy who owned a few "gentlemen's clubs" in the dfw area)

How's the move to dollar coins working out for that industry? That's gotta be uncomfortable.

[Salty]

Hi, Ya'll-

Welcome to the 'States, Clop.

It only takes two Marines, to tip a cow over.

I have both driven cab and waited table. I have driven cab for wages of 35% of the take and I have driven cab, leasing the cab. Most places I waited table or did room service paid under minimum wage, and taxed an arbitrary expected tips amount.

Leasing a cab is generally considered self-employed. The tips were needed in all cases, to make a decent living. This is not Australia. There's still tipping in Europe, as far as I know. The one job I've had where we were not allowed to accept tips, gratuities, other kinds of gifts, etc was Security Guard. In that instance, it would be considered a bribe.

Thanks to all of you, I now know it's no longer 15% tip, but now 20%. Since I've worked different jobs where I was tipped, I tip. If I get extremely good service, I tip over the going rate. If I get extremely poor service, I'll give a small tip, which is an insult. GRIN.

That's about it.

Wanna read an Aggie cabdriver joke?
Q. How many Aggies does it take, to drive a taxi?
A. Three: one to drive, one to work the meter and the other to operate the radio.
(With the advent of computers in cabs, one to drive and the other two work the computer).

[Lurky]

Does anyone tip for take out? Sometimes I wonder if they are waiting for me to fill in the "Tip: _______" part of the receipt as I sign?

Also... what about tipping at coffee places, Chipotle, or ice cream places... they may have their tip jars out but I don't notice too many people adding to them. Once in a while I'll throw in a buck if I have a big order or I frequent the place.

And how much do you tip the sushi chef? I usually tip 20% of the sushi part of the bill (put into jar on sushi bar)..not the total order? But then do you tip the waitress less if you are not seated at the sushi bar and have a waitress bring your order? What about sushi take out? Still tip?

I used to wait tables ... we never made minimum wage via our checks...and we were taxed on our sales. At all places I waited we had to 'tip out' the bartenders... 10% of our bar sales.

I will not tip 'extra' if there is already a delivery charge added to the bill.

[Amber Robot]

Do the chefs ever get a share of the tip? If the food is really good, shouldn't he/she get tipped? Or are you only tipping for the waiter to bring the food to you?

[Studioguy]

Most places either require that the waitstaff split their tips with the busboys and kitchen staff or the "non-tip-getters" are paid a higher wage and/or commission of the total sales for the shift. A friend of mine worked at a restaurant that was a nice little microcosm of socialism where the whole staff threw their tips into a pile at the end of the night and it got split equally...to be fair. Naturally, people started hoarding their tips and not throwing into the pile while others just didn't give a crap about their customers because they were getting part of the tips others earned at the end of the night. She didn't stay there long and the place went out of business within a year.

[Lurky]

If the food is really good, shouldn't he/she get tipped?

Yes! But how...

I've always tipped the waitress the 20% and then tipped the sushi chef at the sushi bar before leaving... for the amount of sushi that was ordered. Is that double tipping though? Does the waitress share her tips with the sushi chef?

Dunno... just wondering if anyone has the inside scoop on the sushi biz.

[Trebuchet]

The tipping question that has bugged me a couple of times is when being served at a restaurant (small) by someone who is obviously the owner. Do you tip the owner? I generally figure that they pool the tips and there are other non-owners who'll benefit so I go ahead and tip.

[SeanF]

Not that I'm an expert, but since someone else mentioned them, exotic dancers are generally not paid a wage either. They only make tips and have to give a percentage to the house. They also have to sell a certain amount of alcohol to keep their "spot" at the place. (oddly enough, I learned that working on a set of records for a guy who owned a few "gentlemen's clubs" in the dfw area)
How's the move to dollar coins working out for that industry? That's gotta be uncomfortable.
I don't think the "move to dollar coins" is affecting that industry much at all - at least not in the U.S., where the "move to dollar coins" has been pretty much non-existent. :)

I would guess, though, that it would ultimately work to the dancers' benefit. The customers would pretty much have to switch to $5 bills, and I bet they'd have a hard time remembering that they need to give only one fifth as often. :D

[Lurky]

The tipping question that has bugged me a couple of times is when being served at a restaurant (small) by someone who is obviously the owner. Do you tip the owner? I generally figure that they pool the tips and there are other non-owners who'll benefit so I go ahead and tip.

So do I.

How much does everyone tip their hairdresser? I tip 20%... and if someone else washes my hair I tip them separate?

[Demigrog]

I generally overtip at cheap restaurants, and go with 15% at expensive ones. I see no reason to underpay for good service just because the food is cheap, or overpay for generally indifferent service when the food is expensive. I have a $3 minimum tip for just me at a cheap place (where even a 20% tip would be pocket change), and go up $1 for each person in my party.

On the other hand, I completely avoid situations where I'm not sure of the tipping etiquette. I avoid my local drive-in fast food place for that reason, never have pizza delivered or room service, and avoid hotels with bellhops.

Taxis are a particular problem. I never use them except on business trips where I have no choice; but that isn't too bad, I can overtip on the company's dime. :)

I had a particularly hard time on a business trip to India, as currency exchange rates and local cost-of-living threw me off completely. For my taxi ride from the airport, I gave the driver a 1000 rupee tip; it was basically $20, and sounded about right until the driver actually had tears in his eyes. I thought I was undertipping and tried to give him more, but he refused. I only realized my mistake later when I found out my driver for the rest of the trip--10 days full time--only got paid about 600 rupees!

[Tog_]

I don't think the "move to dollar coins" is affecting that industry much at all - at least not in the U.S., where the "move to dollar coins" has been pretty much non-existent. :)

I would guess, though, that it would ultimately work to the dancers' benefit. The customers would pretty much have to switch to $5 bills, and I bet they'd have a hard time remembering that they need to give only one fifth as often. :D

In Utah, the money is thrown on stage then collected by what amounts to stage hands. It's illegal to actually make contact with a dancer on stage.

[Argos]

I hate tipping. Why should I pay an extra for people doing what´s supposed to be his/her duty? I know one cannot escape it. Still I hate this stupid custom.

[tdvance]

How's the move to dollar coins working out for that industry? That's gotta be uncomfortable.

Dollar bills still being printed--probably no effect. In fact, I don't think I've seen the (new...again) dollar coin, certainly have never received one as change nor paid with one.

But--hey, inflation--they might only dance for fivers now.

[tdvance]

Does anyone tip for take out? Sometimes I wonder if they are waiting for me to fill in the "Tip: _______" part of the receipt as I sign?

If they bring it out to my car, yes. I don't really know if you go in and get it.

[tdvance]

The tipping question that has bugged me a couple of times is when being served at a restaurant (small) by someone who is obviously the owner. Do you tip the owner? I generally figure that they pool the tips and there are other non-owners who'll benefit so I go ahead and tip.

I've been to a few restaurants where whenever someone with the title of "manager" is waiting on tables because of short staffing for a day, they refuse to accept tips on the grounds they would be fired for it.

I'd imagine most owners would not get tipped.

[tdvance]

I hate tipping. Why should I pay an extra for people doing what´s supposed to be his/her duty? I know one cannot escape it. Still I hate this stupid custom.

Problem is, what is supposed to be duty is "follow the list of rules that keep you from getting fired", and it is easy to do that and still make a customer miserable :) (well, when I worked in a pastry shop and got a rude customer...well, maybe I'll take the fifth on that one).

[Lurky]

If they bring it out to my car, yes. I don't really know if you go in and get it.

Yes I tip them if they bring it out to the car but we rarely go to places that run out to the car for you.... we usually go inside for pick up.

[Amber Robot]

Problem is, what is supposed to be duty is "follow the list of rules that keep you from getting fired", and it is easy to do that and still make a customer miserable :) (well, when I worked in a pastry shop and got a rude customer...well, maybe I'll take the fifth on that one).

And if they make the customer miserable, the customer might complain or the place may lose customers. Therefore, it might result in the worker getting fired. So, the incentive to do a good job is to not get fired, or even get promoted or get a bonus, just like in any job that doesn't get tips.

[geonuc]

I understand some people's annoyance with tipping customs, but I'd urge you not to rebel by stiffing your servers. It is not they who devised the system and they do depend on tips for a living. Minimum wage laws (in the US) recognize the policy and allow considerably lower per hour wages for tipped employees.

[Amber Robot]

Minimum wage laws (in the US) recognize the policy and allow considerably lower per hour wages for tipped employees.

This is a bit of a circular argument, isn't it? They pay lower wages because the workers get tips, and the workers need the tips because they're paid a lower wage.

[sarongsong]

...and some people just aren't cut out to serve the public and should not be encouraged to stay. :)

[geonuc]

This is a bit of a circular argument, isn't it? They pay lower wages because the workers get tips, and the workers need the tips because they're paid a lower wage.
No, I don't think so, because I'm not arguing all of that. I am just describing the system as it is now, not how it came to be or should be. Tipped employees rely on tips to make a decent wage. The IRS expects a certain percentage of income will be through tips and thus has a lower minimum wage scale.

[Amber Robot]

Tipped employees rely on tips to make a decent wage.

Their employers can circumvent the minimum wage laws because they get tips. If they were paid a decent wage they wouldn't need tips. It's very circular. I understand you aren't 'arguing' that point, but I've had the argument with others when I've said I'm against the current system of tipping.

[sarongsong]

...The IRS expects a certain percentage of income will be through tips...For waitri, the IRS calculates that a certain percentage of one's total food sales (which the employer must report) reflect what those tips should have amounted to. At one time it was 8%.
Bellmen are another story... http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[geonuc]

Their employers can circumvent the minimum wage laws because they get tips. If they were paid a decent wage they wouldn't need tips. It's very circular. I understand you aren't 'arguing' that point, but I've had the argument with others when I've said I'm against the current system of tipping.
I'm not particularly in favor of it, either. I certainly wasn't when I was in the restaurant industry. But you mischaracterize the situation when you say employers "circumvent the law". The law contains provisions for a lower wage for tipped employees.

[thoth II]

Do I have tip everyone I deal with?

Perplexed,

clop

Clop, I've lived in USA , well, a long time, and I'm still perplexed. This country never ceases to baffle me. But when in doubt, I just give everyone 20%

[clop]

Clop, I've lived in USA , well, a long time, and I'm still perplexed. This country never ceases to baffle me. But when in doubt, I just give everyone 20%

An excellent idea! ... or at least it would be if I were rich (which I'm not) and could afford to give money away willy nilly. I like tipping for exemplary service but handing it over just to avoid feeling "guilty" (there appears to be a strong vein of guilt-driven tipping going on in this thread) is mad. I'd rather keep my head-earned money. I don't think I could bring myself to throw my money in the bin simply because I felt guilty about leaving a tip line blank on docket! Fight the culture dawgs!

clop

[grant hutchison]

Oh-kay then ...
I read the whole thread.
I'm never going back to the USA.

1) That's a crazy system you've got there.
2) Your waiting staff probably still hate me.

Grant Hutchison

[Amber Robot]

I'm not particularly in favor of it, either. I certainly wasn't when I was in the restaurant industry. But you mischaracterize the situation when you say employers "circumvent the law". The law contains provisions for a lower wage for tipped employees.

But that is the circularism that I am referring to. If tipping were gotten rid of then there'd be no need for the provisions. I've had people tell me "you have to tip them because they make such low wages"; but they make low wages because they are tipped. Makes the head spin...

[Warren Platts]

Oh-kay then ...
I read the whole thread.
I'm never going back to the USA.

1) That's a crazy system you've got there.
2) Your waiting staff probably still hate me.

Grant Hutchison

What about doctors and lawyers? Should they be tipped as well for exemplary service? Probably not. But what about priests and ministers? For an exemplary marriage ceremony shouldn't one slip a little extra cash to the pastor/priest/rabbi/imam?

[Gillianren]

How much does everyone tip their hairdresser? I tip 20%... and if someone else washes my hair I tip them separate?

Heh. The last time I paid to get my hair cut, I was in high school, and the person was doing it for college credit. 20%, as I recall, would have come to under a dollar.

But that is the circularism that I am referring to. If tipping were gotten rid of then there'd be no need for the provisions. I've had people tell me "you have to tip them because they make such low wages"; but they make low wages because they are tipped. Makes the head spin...

Try this. If there were no provisions allowing for employers to pay their wait staff at less than minimum wage (which isn't actually true in all states, but they do pay very low wages), tipping wouldn't be as big a deal, because people would actually be able to live on what they make. Under the current system, they cannot. So I advise, since you prefer not to tip, working to change the law instead. Or petition the employer to raise wages, if you happen to live in a state that doesn't permit underpaying. It actually is true that it is circular, you see. Only it's the people who instituted the policy doing the circular thinking. "They get tipped, so they don't need as much money. But now, if they don't get tipped, they won't make enough."

What about doctors and lawyers? Should they be tipped as well for exemplary service? Probably not. But what about priests and ministers? For an exemplary marriage ceremony shouldn't one slip a little extra cash to the pastor/priest/rabbi/imam?

My lawyer had his fee set by the feds, and my doctors get their money from the state. And I never actually got paid the one time I performed a marriage ceremony, though my best friend is very grateful.

[Warren Platts]

So how would you describe yourself as a marriage ceremony performer? Midwife I hope not~! :D Really you need to charge at least $100 USD. Then you should get 10% to 20% on top of that. . . .

[Amber Robot]

So I advise, since you prefer not to tip, working to change the law instead.

Well, I don't really have time to take on a second job as an activist. I guess I'll just have to grumble about it and accept that it is part of the culture here.

Just remember, paying someone extra after they provide good service is a tip, and paying someone extra before they provide good service is a bribe. :p

[sarongsong]

...so when "bribing" a maitre d' for a good table, pass a neatly folded-up bill of your chosen denomination in a welcoming handshake---he/she can't very well look at it before seating you at the best available. http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Tog_]

And if they make the customer miserable, the customer might complain or the place may lose customers. Therefore, it might result in the worker getting fired. So, the incentive to do a good job is to not get fired, or even get promoted or get a bonus, just like in any job that doesn't get tips.

Heh, bonuses.

I've worked customer service for close to 20 years. The closest thing I've ever seen (anyone get) to a bonus is the promise (not delivery) of movie passes for agreeing to come in on a night off.

Bonuses are not an option. Nor are raises. Everything is fixed. At step 3 a person in position X makes $Y per hour regardless of the degree of service they provide. If there is spot open, there is a chance for a promotion for providing good service.

Providing poor service doesn't really have any negative effects in the places I've been because either. The reason for both of those is that the floor managers don't really have any say in things. Pay and terminations are all handled by the Company. We had a checker that smelled so bad that 5 out of 5 people could tell which item she touched a few minutes after she rang the order through. When I left that job, she was still a full time checker. The company didn't want to deal with the hassle of firing her for poor hygiene.

At the grocery store we were not allowed to accept tips at all.

After 14 years there, it was tough to switch to a mode where I could accept them in the hotel.

At a hotel where I worked for a month in Park City, it was normal for the guy that drove the shuttle to make $100 a night in tips. As a 14 year old Bell hop, I made $50 in 8 days. This was the equivalent of a 20% raise/bonus based on what I was making wage wise.

Whether you agree with tipping or not, the fact is, in the US, the wage structures of MANY type of business are based on it. A handful of people refusing to tip is not going to make the slightest difference in the wage scales of something like the food service industry.

[Ronald Brak]

To me, an outsider, it looks as though the United States has got itself stuck in an inefficient situation. Of course to people brought up with tipping it probably all seems natural and normal. I have some ideas on how to bust America out of it's current low equilbrium state, but I doubt there would be much support for them in the US and I imagine the system will probably change anyway as technolgy and culture changes.

[geonuc]

Well, I don't really have time to take on a second job as an activist. I guess I'll just have to grumble about it and accept that it is part of the culture here.
And that was my point. :)

[slang]

There's still tipping in Europe, as far as I know.

Not as expected extra payment, and certainly not with an expected amount or percentage. Not here anyway. More in a "keep the change" way after receiving good service. Maybe a restaurant bill rounded up to the next 'convenient' amount. But even that is becoming less common, with more and more things being paid electronically rather than cash.

[Amber Robot]

And that was my point. :)

Yeah, I know. But people often act as if the current setup is the only possible one, but of course it isn't.

[Buttercup]

At TGI Fridays the pay is $2.25/hr. Plus 10% of your sales is added to calculate a theoretical pay for the week. You don’t get this 10% but they withhold income taxes based on this theoretical pay. The more you sell the more they remove from your paycheck. Then they withhold $75 every paycheck (two weeks) for medical insurance.
The result is NO PAYCHECK! You live entirely on your tips.

Same as Pizza Hut (worked there while going to college).

Frankly I think it's nothing short of slave labor. And the onus is on the customer to pay the employee? What a crock. Meanwhile the sleezy greedheads in charge rake in huge profits.

To the Aussie gentleman who began this thread: Too many Americans (I'm one) have a huge sense of entitlement. We (allegedly) *deserve* this and that simply because we were born and breathe. Everything MUST be rewarded somehow or we've been robbed/ripped off/cheated. :rolleyes: This unfortunate attitude has only gotten worse.

Tip at your discretion. I'm actually surprised it's not standard practice elsewhere, but I've not traveled extensively.

[Demigrog]

Same as Pizza Hut (worked there while going to college).

Frankly I think it's nothing short of slave labor. And the onus is on the customer to pay the employee? What a crock. Meanwhile the sleezy greedheads in charge rake in huge profits.


I don't know; something appeals to me about the customer directly paying the person serving them. I overtip the waitresses at my favorite pizza buffet, and now they put my Cheese Pizza, New York crust into the oven before I make it from my car to the front door. My drink never goes below 50% full, and they hold a booth for me on tuesdays and thursdays in busy lunch crowds when they know I'll be there. It is a $8.50 meal including drink and I tip $4. While the staff there is great even to other customers, they clearly go out of their way for me. Sadly, as I've recently found out I am diabetic, I probably will never get to eat there again. :(

Ironically, when I reduce my normal tip for bad service (at other places), I am still overtipping usually.

On the other hand, I hate it when shuttle bus drivers have a tip jar. What am I tipping for, safer driving? If there is no link between motivation and service, I don't think tipping is appropriate. Also, involuntary service never gets a tip from me (ie bathrooms with attendants, aggressive bellhops that won't take no for an answer)

Edit to add: I get Christmas Cards from the waitresses at the pizza place.

[Argos]

To the Aussie gentleman who began this thread: Too many Americans (I'm one) have a huge sense of entitlement. We (allegedly) *deserve* this and that simply because we were born and breathe. Everything MUST be rewarded somehow or we've been robbed/ripped off/cheated. :rolleyes: This unfortunate attitude has only gotten worse.

Yeah. It´s spread to the world. The art of tipping is so perfected down here that I thought it was a Brazilian invention. Grrr.

Talking bout 'deserving', we´re living the Era of the Ego. Everybody acts as if they were the center of the universe...

[Gillianren]

The one thing I have noticed in this thread is that some people don't seem to have ever done a service industry job. Complain to the manager about pay? Bonuses?

[Amber Robot]

The one thing I have noticed in this thread is that some people don't seem to have ever done a service industry job.

Is that a requirement to have an opinion about tipping?

[SeanF]

An excellent idea! ... or at least it would be if I were rich (which I'm not) and could afford to give money away willy nilly.
Withour our "expected tipping" social policy, clop, service people's minimum wages would be higher, which means your upfront costs would be higher. If you can't afford to buy the food plus a typical tip, you wouldn't be able to afford the food with the typical tip fee built in, either. Not much difference either way. :)

BTW, I suspect it wasn't really circular logic that led to this point. People tipped service people long before there was a minimum wage (certainly long before there was one in the US). So the expectation that a waitress gets tips was, in fact, the cause of the waitress' lower minimum wage, but it was not the result of that lower minimum wage.

Although it's probably true that the lower minimum wage helps to perpetuate the idea of tipping.

[Amber Robot]

BTW, I suspect it wasn't really circular logic that led to this point. People tipped service people long before there was a minimum wage (certainly long before there was one in the US). So the expectation that a waitress gets tips was, in fact, the cause of the waitress' lower minimum wage, but it was not the result of that lower minimum wage.

What do you suppose was the historical background for those countries/cultures that do not have a tipping custom?

[tdvance]

...so when "bribing" a maitre d' for a good table, pass a neatly folded-up bill of your chosen denomination in a welcoming handshake---he/she can't very well look at it before seating you at the best available. http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


Hmm---seats you, see you gave him one of those fake Bill Clinton $3.00 bills from Mad Magazine a few years back, and calls Bruno the Bouncer and says, "want to be waiter for this one table? Good! put on a shirt."

[tdvance]

The one thing I have noticed in this thread is that some people don't seem to have ever done a service industry job. Complain to the manager about pay? Bonuses?

The only way to complain at this level really is with your feet. You know, there's a reason I never made a career out of my grocery bagging job :) I only took it because it was all there was in the small town where I grew up.

[DonM435]

We have really good garbage collection service in my neighborhood. You can set out really huge, heavy or messy items and they'll whisk it away on schedule. The worst thing I've left was probably a broken office chair, but I've seen my neighbors put out big-screen televisions, refrigerators, kitchen counters, couches and the like.

As holiday time, approaches, I feel as if I should give the sanitation workers (or whatever they're called) something extra . . . but then again, I flash back to the previous holiday season.

We have two days per week of garbage pickup, and naturally one of these days is bound to fall on or adjacent to Christmas and on New Year's Day the following week. These days are off the pickup schedule, and the workers fall behind.

Of course, from late December through early January, everybody on the block is getting new stuff throwing out old stuff, so there are tables, chairs, bicycles, carpets, aquariums, computer monitors, gift wrappings, remains of holiday feasts, old Christmas trees and such things, and for a couple of weeks it builds up and goes nowhere. The street looks like something out of one of those end-of-the-world science fiction pictures.

They eventually catch up and order is restored, but that annual chaos serves to assuage my guilt over not tipping.

[geonuc]

So, you don't tip the sanitation workers because they took Christmas and New Year's off?

[SeanF]

What do you suppose was the historical background for those countries/cultures that do not have a tipping custom?
I don't understand what you're getting at. I would presume that countries without a tipping custom would enact minimum wage laws that did not have exemptions for certain jobs.

?

[Gillianren]

The only way to complain at this level really is with your feet. You know, there's a reason I never made a career out of my grocery bagging job :) I only took it because it was all there was in the small town where I grew up.

We have a nearly ten-percent unemployment rate in Washington.

And, no, you don't have to have done a service job in order to have an opinion about tipping. But it's one way to have an informed opinion about what people in that field ought to do or expect from their employers.

[JohnD]

As a UK resident, never in the US except for brief visits, I am astounded, dumbfounded, almost disgusted by this thread. Tipping, in the Home of the Brave and Land of the Free? Tipping is something that we in the UK got away from after the old, pre-WW1 days when the Classes knew their place, and were grateful for it. It is the ultimate expression of a class-ridden society, that the US still thinks of as the UK. How wrong can you be?

Weirdly, the BBC Radio has a regular and long standing series called "From Our Own Correspondent" in which those people do short think pieces about life and times where they are stationed. Alistair Cooke was the ultimate exponent, in his monumental "Letter from America" series of radio talks. A few weeks ago, FOOC did one on tipping, US style. See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7927983.stm

If you don't know Alistair Cooke, see: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/3581573.stm

John

[clop]

The one thing I have noticed in this thread is that some people don't seem to have ever done a service industry job. Complain to the manager about pay? Bonuses?

Oh but I have. In my twenties I delivered pizzas six nights per week for a year. I didn't get any tips (well perhaps one or two in a whole shift) and didn't expect to get them either. I decided that I wanted a job that paid more money and so I stopped delivering pizzas and became a medical engineer instead.

clop

[DonM435]

So, you don't tip the sanitation workers because they took Christmas and New Year's off?

Well, as I said, they let the garbage pile up for a couple of weeks every year. Their department ought to schedule the days off more creatively. (I'm talking Florida -- it's not as if they're working in the snow.)

[Gillianren]

Oh but I have. In my twenties I delivered pizzas six nights per week for a year. I didn't get any tips (well perhaps one or two in a whole shift) and didn't expect to get them either. I decided that I wanted a job that paid more money and so I stopped delivering pizzas and became a medical engineer instead.

And did you tell the manager that you weren't being paid enough and that they ought to pay you more?

[Tinaa]

I do think that you need to have worked in the service industry to complain about tipping. If you had any idea how rude, messy and basically disgusting the general public is you might have a different view of these lowly waitpersons, delivery people and other service persons.

Most of these people would get a different job if they had the chance, education, whatever.

[Amber Robot]

I do think that you need to have worked in the service industry to complain about tipping. If you had any idea how rude, messy and basically disgusting the general public is you might have a different view of these lowly waitpersons, delivery people and other service persons.

I do always tip because I do realize that they have to put up with a lot and pretty much live off of tips. However, the question I always have is *should* it be that way. There are places I've traveled to where you don't have to tip. Should these types of workers just be paid a proper wage and not have to rely on tips? Is tipping the only way to ensure good service in certain jobs?

[Ronald Brak]

And did you tell the manager that you weren't being paid enough and that they ought to pay you more?

We don't do that here. That's just... wrong.

[sarongsong]

...Is tipping the only way to ensure good service in certain jobs?Since the tip usually comes after the service, I don't see how that works; it does express a certain recognitiion of, and appreciation for, good service, tho. :)

[geonuc]

Well, as I said, they let the garbage pile up for a couple of weeks every year. Their department ought to schedule the days off more creatively. (I'm talking Florida -- it's not as if they're working in the snow.)
I'm sorry, but I don't understand that. Mind you, I don't tip sanitation workers, but if I was a mind to, I'd base it on how they did their job, not how their department schedules holidays (are you suggesting some of them should work Christmas Day?)

It happens everywhere, you know. Garbage pickup is tightly scheduled and holidays play havoc.

With respect to tipped employees, I will never not tip. If I thought the service so bad that it ruined my meal, I'd mention it to the management. But even that never happens. If it's a chronic problem (for those familiar with Atlanta, think Panahar), I just don't go back.

[Swift]

Ok, we're starting to get complaints.

Debate the tipping system all you like, but please avoid bashing entire countries and/or cultures.

Thanks all.

[SeanF]

Since the tip usually comes after the service, I don't see how that works; it does express a certain recognitiion of, and appreciation for, good service, tho. :)
Even those who don't get tips generally get paid after they do the job. Knowing that a good job will get you more money encourages you to do a good job.

In fact, it seems to me that tipping before the service is rendered would be a good way to not get good service. After all, if they've already got your money, what's it to them? :)

[Amber Robot]

Since the tip usually comes after the service, I don't see how that works; it does express a certain recognitiion of, and appreciation for, good service, tho. :)

Well, if a worker knew they survived only on tips they might make sure to give good service in anticipation of getting a tip. If they gave poor service they would get a poor tip and not be able to make a living at their job. The tip is the incentive. I don't see why getting it after the service wouldn't work.

[Argos]

I do think that you need to have worked in the service industry to complain about tipping. If you had any idea how rude, messy and basically disgusting the general public is you might have a different view of these lowly waitpersons, delivery people and other service persons.

Most of these people would get a different job if they had the chance, education, whatever.

Ok, but life is unfair, that´s for sure. I, for one, would like to live in a villa in Tuscany, surrounded by nymphs...

[Gillianren]

We don't do that here. That's just... wrong.

No one does that. That's my point--saying that you ought to tell them you should be paid more so that you don't have to rely on tips will not actually work and is in fact a good recipe for getting fired. (In just about any job!) But that was given as a serious suggestion for how people ought to handle the situation instead of expecting tips.

[tdvance]

We don't do that here. That's just... wrong.

That was exactly my dad's attitude! HE was horrified when I worked in the pastry shop and told him I asked for a raise one day (I got it!!!).