About UFO's

[Salty]

Rather than hijack NEOWatcher's thread, I'll start this one.

I stopped reading about UFO's in the '70's or '80's. While I read about them, I did notice at least three constants.

The first constant, included in many different books and articles, was a disk shaped flying object. There were photos of rock drawings from millenia ago, depicting what could be a flying disk. There was a photo of a medival oil painting, with a disk shaped flying object, alleged to be original to the date the oil was painted. There were also books which included sketches of all different shapes of UFO's. But, the disk shaped UFO proved constant throughout the literature, that I read.
With that in mind, if and only if the disk shaped UFO's were accurately reported over the ages, then we have a civilization with a static technology. For maybe thousands of years, and probably hundreds of years, the same design of UFO had prevailed. They didn't change the design nor progress to other than the disk shaped.

Another constant, is so many UFO's have been sighted off of different continents, going into and coming out of coastal waters. This indicates to me, there could be submarine bases; if there's an underwater cave entrance, there could be subterranean hangars for the alleged UFO's.

And, the third constant is contact stories. I decided I did not want to be contancted by any crew member of a UFO, so I stopped reading the material.

The one and two constants lead me to surmise, that my father was right when he said, "Son, there are UFO's...and they're not from another planet." (punctuation and emphasis are direct quote of my father's statement.)
Father served 29yrs in the USAF, and we came to Carswell AFB base in Fort Worth around 1947, the same year as the Roswell, N.M. incident; from which the story goes, pieces of the wrecks were shipped through Carswell AFB, to area 51 and like that.

So, that's why my post in NEOWatcher's thread I thought there would be UFO's from earth, if there were any, but not from another planet.

I'll try to come back tomorrow evening or Wednesday, for sure, to participate in any discussion ya'll care to make.

[JustAFriend]

Actually the disk is not a constant.

As a youngster I read a large number of UFO stories from the 1700s-1800s-today that described cigar/dirigible-shaped craft. I always found the pre-Wright Brothers stories more interesting....

There have also been quite a few egg-shaped (such as the 1960s Zamora sighting).

And I find the smaller probe type sightings to be more interesting.

(Not that I am a believer, but I have read the stories since the flaps in the '60s...)

[sarongsong]

my father...said, "Son, there are UFO's...and they're not from another planet."...That's all he ever said to you on the subject?

[TRUTHisnotfacts]

I will be back to comment later

[kleindoofy]

The world's shortest book: A Chronology of Genuine Alien UFO Sightings.

It has exactly zero pages.

The world's second shortest book: The Truth About Aliens in Human Experience.

It has exactly one sentence: "There is none."

[TrAI]

Rather than hijack NEOWatcher's thread, I'll start this one.

I stopped reading about UFO's in the '70's or '80's. While I read about them, I did notice at least three constants.

The first constant, included in many different books and articles, was a disk shaped flying object. There were photos of rock drawings from millenia ago, depicting what could be a flying disk. There was a photo of a medival oil painting, with a disk shaped flying object, alleged to be original to the date the oil was painted. There were also books which included sketches of all different shapes of UFO's. But, the disk shaped UFO proved constant throughout the literature, that I read.
With that in mind, if and only if the disk shaped UFO's were accurately reported over the ages, then we have a civilization with a static technology. For maybe thousands of years, and probably hundreds of years, the same design of UFO had prevailed. They didn't change the design nor progress to other than the disk shaped.

I would say that having similar design of their craft over centuries is a rather poor basis for proposing a state of static technology, as there may be reasons for choosing that design in preference to others, like for example that designing it circular allows for equal flight characteristics in any horisontal direction during atmospheric filght, and you avoid things sticking out and snapping off if you suddently have to do a high G acceleration in some direction other than that you are currently flying in, or perhaps they just like that design. Also the descriptions are often vague, so it can be hard to know if any differences have been effected.

If we look at the design of ships(that is, terrestrial ocean going craft) since ships with engines became common, the over all design is pretty similar, there have been some changes due to different power sources, for ships with special applications, and so on, but if someone who never saw a ship before were to see a few examples in the distance, they might conclude that little progress has been made too. I suspect that the design will probably continue to look similar for some time to come, though there may be an increase in special designs for some applications.

Another constant, is so many UFO's have been sighted off of different continents, going into and coming out of coastal waters. This indicates to me, there could be submarine bases; if there's an underwater cave entrance, there could be subterranean hangars for the alleged UFO's.

Well, if they were alien research craft, they may be interested in looking over more than just cities and land, we have a tendency to think land centric, since we live on land, but that doesn't mean that alien scientists might not find it interesting to fly around and mapping the depths of the seas, taking samples and speciments and so on.

And, the third constant is contact stories. I decided I did not want to be contancted by any crew member of a UFO, so I stopped reading the material.

Well, I have noticed a constant too, that is that many people of a science/engineering turn and a more sceptical point of view were interested in these sort of things when young, I have a feeling it did serve a beneficial purpose for them, though exactly what or how I am not clear on.

The one and two constants lead me to surmise, that my father was right when he said, "Son, there are UFO's...and they're not from another planet." (punctuation and emphasis are direct quote of my father's statement.)
Father served 29yrs in the USAF, and we came to Carswell AFB base in Fort Worth around 1947, the same year as the Roswell, N.M. incident; from which the story goes, pieces of the wrecks were shipped through Carswell AFB, to area 51 and like that.

So, that's why my post in NEOWatcher's thread I thought there would be UFO's from earth, if there were any, but not from another planet.

I'll try to come back tomorrow evening or Wednesday, for sure, to participate in any discussion ya'll care to make.

Hmmm... Well, there are myths and legends about flying contrivances from many places in the world, generaly they are made by, or under direction of gods or some other superior class of creature.

[Salty]

First off, please forgive my absence this week. I ate a bad fish Monday night and have been very sick and weak until yesterday night.

This branch library is closed Sundays and Thursdays.

Ok, now to your posts.

[Salty]

Actually the disk is not a constant.

As a youngster I read a large number of UFO stories from the 1700s-1800s-today that described cigar/dirigible-shaped craft. I always found the pre-Wright Brothers stories more interesting....

There have also been quite a few egg-shaped (such as the 1960s Zamora sighting).

And I find the smaller probe type sightings to be more interesting.

(Not that I am a believer, but I have read the stories since the flaps in the '60s...)

Interestingly, I thought of the cigar shaped UFO's which were reporte over the USA's Eastern seaboard and Chicago, during the late 1800's. There may not be a connection to the following; but I think it interesting that the cigar shaped UFO's, with people visible as passengers, were followed in the early 1900's by Zepplin's aircraft. I can't help but wonder, if some European or other country had been leading in aircraft design, without fanfare.

[Salty]

That's all he ever said to you on the subject?

Good to hear from you.

Well, that's the only time I mentioned UFO's. And, yes, that's all he ever said on the subject. My father didn't talk much, and was generally right, when he did.

[Salty]

The world's shortest book: A Chronology of Genuine Alien UFO Sightings.

It has exactly zero pages.

The world's second shortest book: The Truth About Aliens in Human Experience.

It has exactly one sentence: "There is none."


Well, now, I can go along with those references.

[Salty]

I would say that having similar design of their craft over centuries is a rather poor basis for proposing a state of static technology, as there may be reasons for choosing that design in preference to others, like for example that designing it circular allows for equal flight characteristics in any horisontal direction during atmospheric filght, and you avoid things sticking out and snapping off if you suddently have to do a high G acceleration in some direction other than that you are currently flying in, or perhaps they just like that design. Also the descriptions are often vague, so it can be hard to know if any differences have been effected.

I see your point; on the other hand, I still have a point. We could both be right or wrong. See, I read on book, that had drawings of at least a score of different UFO designs. I'm just saying the disk shape seems to appear more.

If we look at the design of ships(that is, terrestrial ocean going craft) since ships with engines became common, the over all design is pretty similar, there have been some changes due to different power sources, for ships with special applications, and so on, but if someone who never saw a ship before were to see a few examples in the distance, they might conclude that little progress has been made too. I suspect that the design will probably continue to look similar for some time to come, though there may be an increase in special designs for some applications.

Again, a good point. When we broaden the view to all water craft, and try to guess which design would be more often seen by visitors, it's hard to tell if small sailboats or large containerships would lead their survey.


Well, if they were alien research craft, they may be interested in looking over more than just cities and land, we have a tendency to think land centric, since we live on land, but that doesn't mean that alien scientists might not find it interesting to fly around and mapping the depths of the seas, taking samples and speciments and so on.

Well....
Even land centric aliens might map the entire geological surface of the earth, including the sea beds.
I read Martin and Ree's Cosmic Coincidences. It's a non fiction work, the thesis of which is that if any small or large force varied one nth, we could not exist. Puttin aside the arguement if that means the universe is designed for us or that we're designed for the universe (I don't want to go there.), it does point out that intelligent life likely may appear much as we do; which include land centric civilizations. Just a thought.



Well, I have noticed a constant too, that is that many people of a science/engineering turn and a more sceptical point of view were interested in these sort of things when young, I have a feeling it did serve a beneficial purpose for them, though exactly what or how I am not clear on.

Evidently, you talk to a lot more college people, than I do. I'll take your word for it. I would guess, that one benefit is a broadening of the mind.


Hmmm... Well, there are myths and legends about flying contrivances from many places in the world, generaly they are made by, or under direction of gods or some other superior class of creature.

The ancient sightings could fall under that last statement.
As I mentioned to another member, the cigar shaped ones in the late 1800's presaged Germany's early Twentieth century Zepplin dirigibles.

Also, during WWII, not only did NAZI scientists experiment with slave built and bell shaped flying machines with a hi-tech drive; but also an American scientist designed and test flew disc shaped airfoil. Our Dept. of War wasn't interested at the time. Right after WWII, the American went to American companies, and also to Europe, trying to peddle his design. He couldn't sell it.
(He may already have given it away: picture inventor, flying disk, Army General and Army technician. Inventor says, this is what I've done and here's the results. General whispers to Tech (Think you could do that with the information he gave you?
Tech: I think so....see if you can get more details from him.
More conversation, more details and General closes conversation to inventor with, "I'm sorry, we still can't use this design."
Inventor leaves, General to Tech, "Make me some of those, now."
And, in 1947 several large discs are seen flying in the vicintiy of Mt. Rainier.
Just a thought.

About your aliens, you have a well supported opinion, from UFOlogists. Nevertheless, I'll stick with my "home grown by us" opinion.

Nice chatting.

[Salty]

It's busy here, will try to come back later.

[TrAI]

I see your point; on the other hand, I still have a point. We could both be right or wrong. See, I read on book, that had drawings of at least a score of different UFO designs. I'm just saying the disk shape seems to appear more.

Again, a good point. When we broaden the view to all water craft, and try to guess which design would be more often seen by visitors, it's hard to tell if small sailboats or large containerships would lead their survey.
True enough, I was just saying that having a similar design over a wide span of time is not neccesarily a sign of a lack of progress.

Well....
Even land centric aliens might map the entire geological surface of the earth, including the sea beds.
I read Martin and Ree's Cosmic Coincidences. It's a non fiction work, the thesis of which is that if any small or large force varied one nth, we could not exist. Puttin aside the arguement if that means the universe is designed for us or that we're designed for the universe (I don't want to go there.), it does point out that intelligent life likely may appear much as we do; which include land centric civilizations. Just a thought.

I would actually think that even though we are land centric, we would explore oceans too if we were on an expedition to another planet where there are oceans. However, by commenting on the land centric nature of humans, I was thinking about your comment about ocean/costal activity being a possible indicator of underwater bases, that can be a land centric view if it assumes that the only reason a craft would have for flying over water is to get to the other side, or to an underwater base.

Evidently, you talk to a lot more college people, than I do. I'll take your word for it. I would guess, that one benefit is a broadening of the mind.

Well, I wasn't thinking that much about broadning the mind, I was thinking of it more as an inspiration, pretty much like sci-fi often is, but there is a certain aspect of mind development in it, I suppose, it could serve as a way of honing a sceptical mind. The reason I am thinking so, is that there seem to be a certain emberassment to admitting that one was into UFO stuff when young, when that actually isn't that uncommon.

The ancient sightings could fall under that last statement.
As I mentioned to another member, the cigar shaped ones in the late 1800's presaged Germany's early Twentieth century Zepplin dirigibles.

Also, during WWII, not only did NAZI scientists experiment with slave built and bell shaped flying machines with a hi-tech drive; but also an American scientist designed and test flew disc shaped airfoil. Our Dept. of War wasn't interested at the time. Right after WWII, the American went to American companies, and also to Europe, trying to peddle his design. He couldn't sell it.
(He may already have given it away: picture inventor, flying disk, Army General and Army technician. Inventor says, this is what I've done and here's the results. General whispers to Tech (Think you could do that with the information he gave you?
Tech: I think so....see if you can get more details from him.
More conversation, more details and General closes conversation to inventor with, "I'm sorry, we still can't use this design."
Inventor leaves, General to Tech, "Make me some of those, now."
And, in 1947 several large discs are seen flying in the vicintiy of Mt. Rainier.
Just a thought.

About your aliens, you have a well supported opinion, from UFOlogists. Nevertheless, I'll stick with my "home grown by us" opinion.

Nice chatting.

Actually, I am not a supporter of the idea that aliens comes to earth and fly about doing stuff, however I believe that if one is to discuss if any of the examples you gave is indicative of UFOs being craft from earth, one have to assume that the premise that there is UFOs and that they are manned craft as true for the discussion.

So, if you take the side that the points you made are indicative of UFOs being craft of a terrestrial origin, and I think that they can be intrepreted another way, that is not against the idea of an extraterrestrial origin, I think it is ok for me to mention that, even if I am not a believer in the overall idea that alien space craft is visiting earth.

[Eoanthropus Dawsoni]

Interestingly, I thought of the cigar shaped UFO's which were reporte over the USA's Eastern seaboard and Chicago, during the late 1800's. There may not be a connection to the following; but I think it interesting that the cigar shaped UFO's, with people visible as passengers, were followed in the early 1900's by Zepplin's aircraft. I can't help but wonder, if some European or other country had been leading in aircraft design, without fanfare.


Jules Verne published a novel about a globe circling dirigible in 1886. In 1887 there was a flap of mystery airship sightings on the East Coast of the USA. There was another mystery airship flap in 1896-97 with claims of sightings across the USA.

Dirigibles have been around since the 1850s and by the late 1880s they were capable of fully controllable flight. These aircraft were at the leading edge of science at that time and were reported in newspapers throughout the world. Anyone who read a newspaper in those days would likely have been aware of these aircraft so it's not much of a stretch to suspect that if someone saw something in the sky they did not understand, they may have concluded that it was an airship. It's also important to remember that almost every one of the mystery airship reports existed only in newspapers and not in official documents. Newspaper publishers of that period were seldom constrained by facts and the deliberate publication of hoaxes was quite common. Just as today, the selling of "news" was much more important than reporting factual information.

[Salty]

True enough, I was just saying that having a similar design over a wide span of time is not neccesarily a sign of a lack of progress.

I see your point: air filled hull sail ships have been around thousands of years. We still sail them, because they're fun and do have some uses in larger hulls. Also, we now have motorized hulls, double hulled and triple hulled ships as well as hydrofoils and hoverhulls. I would compare flying discs to the sailboats, and agree that there could have been interior technology changes.



I would actually think that even though we are land centric, we would explore oceans too if we were on an expedition to another planet where there are oceans. However, by commenting on the land centric nature of humans, I was thinking about your comment about ocean/costal activity being a possible indicator of underwater bases, that can be a land centric view if it assumes that the only reason a craft would have for flying over water is to get to the other side, or to an underwater base.

I was also pointing out, that there could be underwater entrances to subterranean hangars.

Well, I wasn't thinking that much about broadning the mind, I was thinking of it more as an inspiration, pretty much like sci-fi often is, but there is a certain aspect of mind development in it, I suppose, it could serve as a way of honing a sceptical mind. The reason I am thinking so, is that there seem to be a certain emberassment to admitting that one was into UFO stuff when young, when that actually isn't that uncommon.

OK, I see what you mean, now. Thanks for the repeat. There's certainly a lot of UFO material, to practise shredding.
Actually, I can remember when I was about four or five years old. It was early evening, and everybody in the neighborhood were on their front lawns. This was west Fort Worth, TX about 1947 or '48. The sky was hazed and every body was looking up, oooing and ahhing.
I said, "What is it, mommy?"
She said, "Can't you see them?"
Me: "See what?"
My twin brother all the time tracking something in the sky.
She pointed, "There, can't you see it?"
Seeing nothing but empty sky, I remember looking over my shoulder and seeing a large red sun, hanging just above the horizen.
That was during a major UFO flap.
Then, after we got our house in 1949, my twin and I were looking out our window at night. There was overcast, and a searchlight was advertising something, somewhere, leaving round and oval shapes of light on the cloud botton. I could see the beam from the ground to the clouds. My brother thought they were UFOs, until I showed him the beams from the searchlight on the ground.
So, it was fifty years before I ever saw a light in the sky that I could not identify. And I was sure that that light was a test aircraft from the plant on the west side of Fort Worth.



Actually, I am not a supporter of the idea that aliens comes to earth and fly about doing stuff, however I believe that if one is to discuss if any of the examples you gave is indicative of UFOs being craft from earth, one have to assume that the premise that there is UFOs and that they are manned craft as true for the discussion.

So, if you take the side that the points you made are indicative of UFOs being craft of a terrestrial origin, and I think that they can be intrepreted another way, that is not against the idea of an extraterrestrial origin, I think it is ok for me to mention that, even if I am not a believer in the overall idea that alien space craft is visiting earth.

I belive that there's some things in our skies, the origins of which are not divulged to the public. I think most of them can be explained and that some cannot be explained in any common or known science terms. I think some may have crews and others are mechanized probes.

Oh, yeah, you surely can mention extraterrestial origins. Yes, yes. Actually, you could be right and me be wrong. It's just that I keep my opinion, and didn't mean to put down yours. A lot of people, some very smart, go for the ET origin of UFOs.

I also recognize that my wondering if there's a millenia old subterranean civilization on earth is just as wild, or wilder, than ETs.

[Salty]

Thanks, Eoanthropus, for your input. I didn't know that there were dirigibles in the 1850's. I'm not even sure, when blimps entered the skies.

You have a valid point, because people do try to put the unknown that they see into a context of something they know.

Thanks, for chipping in.