Windows 7 [Archive] - Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum

sarongsong

25-June-2009, 04:03 PM

I would like to see the announcement that Windows 7 is replacing Vista in 09."Yes, Master!" http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gifJune 25, 2009
...Windows 7 becomes available on October 22...people who buy PCs before the new system goes on sale in October will get free upgrades...$120 to upgrade existing machines to the Windows 7 Home Premium...Professional and Ultimate versions will cost $200 and $220 respectively...to goose early sales and build buzz, Microsoft is cutting the price by about half for people who pre-order upgrade software for Home Premium ($50) and Professional ($100).
The sale will start Friday in the U.S., Canada and Japan, and on July 15 in the U.K., France and Germany. It will last for about two weeks...
AP/Columbus Dispatch (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_TEC_MICROSOFT_WINDOWS_7_PRICES?SITE=OHCOL&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

Celestial Mechanic

25-June-2009, 04:30 PM

Yes, but how much for the upgrade to XP? :lol:

(Don't forget to look at my sig!) :D

orionjim

25-June-2009, 04:43 PM

Yes, but how much for the upgrade to XP? :lol:

(Don't forget to look at my sig!) :D

It’s virtually free when you buy Windows 7. (There’s a virtual XP version included). :whistle:

And if you act before July 11th you can pre-order it for $50us.

Jim

Ara Pacis

25-June-2009, 06:51 PM

And I just got used to Vista. When are they ever going to find a Windows they're happy with?

Celestial Mechanic

25-June-2009, 08:21 PM

And I just got used to Vista. When are they ever going to find a Windows they're happy with?
When are they going to find a Windows that we can be happy with? And when will they let us keep the one we're least unhappy with? :think:

JustAFriend

25-June-2009, 09:59 PM

....and they still won't call it what it REALLY is: VISTA II

(like they had time to rewrite all those millions of lines of
code from scratch when the first one bombed? Yeah, right...)

Nowhere Man

25-June-2009, 11:44 PM

FWIW, a co-worker has been in the Win7 beta program and is very heavily impressed with how well it works, even on computers that would die trying to run Vista.

Fred

eric_marsh

26-June-2009, 02:01 AM

When are they going to find a Windows that we can be happy with? And when will they let us keep the one we're least unhappy with? :think:

That's not the Microsoft way.

mugaliens

26-June-2009, 06:54 AM

...when the first one bombed?

Yours bombed? I'm sorry to hear that.

My copy of Vista has worked outstandingly well since I bought it, with the laptop on which I'm typing this, two years ago.

Half price, huh? $110 for Ultimate? For another two years?

That's less than $5 a month for the latest in a line of software (NT 4.0, XP, Vista) with which I've enjoyed and been thoroughly satisfied.

That doesn't stop me from tinkering with my Open Solaris box I use as a fileserver, though...

cjl

27-June-2009, 08:07 AM

Honestly, I've had great success with Vista X64, and I've also been running the Windows 7 Release Candidate recently, and I love it. It's even faster than Vista, and just as stable (and I haven't had a blue screen on either in months), and I like some of the new features too. I already find myself missing several of the new features when I'm booted into Vista, and I think I'll probably be buying a copy pretty quickly after it comes out. I'm just waiting for Ultimate to be included in that half price deal (right now, all I see is Professional and Home Premium).

mugaliens

27-June-2009, 09:36 AM

I think if Ultimate dropped in the half slot, I'd buy a copy, if for no other reason than I'm setting my son on a computer build project this summer.

He doesn't know it, yet, but it's his.:)

cjl

27-June-2009, 10:06 AM

I usually buy OEM. It's practically half price, and the only sacrifices are that you can't change the motherboard without buying a new copy and you get no tech support. IIRC, Vista Ultimate OEM goes for ~$160 (that's full version, not upgrade). Home premium is $100.

Chuck

28-June-2009, 03:35 PM

I'm still using a seven year old Windows 2000 notebook computer and hope to skip Vista completely. I hope they hurry it along. My computer powers down unexpectedly every few days and has trouble connecting to wireless networks. I'd really rather wait for the Windows 7 first service pack, though, after other people have dealt with the first round of bugs.

davidlpf

29-June-2009, 02:37 PM

I think if Ultimate dropped in the half slot, I'd buy a copy, if for no other reason than I'm setting my son on a computer build project this summer.

He doesn't know it, yet, but it's his.:)
Train well, the young padawan.

davidlpf

29-June-2009, 02:44 PM

I have had acouple blue screnns of death but most of them were when I has running somw kodak software that came with my camera.
My main compliant on using Vista is the numerous upgrades while you doing something else and it starts to shut down your computer. It does allow an override but sometimes you are not there and the download you are waiting for is delayed.
I do not know if I will get the upgrade or not.

Nicolas

29-June-2009, 06:03 PM

This means that our company skipped Vista entirely. Sounds like a good choice as we're still happy with XP and 7 appears to be way better than XP.

Will 7 run on "old" computers? (say single 3GHz things, PC's that are way fast enough for XP but a bit light for Vista).

Larry Jacks

29-June-2009, 07:43 PM

My main compliant on using Vista is the numerous upgrades while you doing something else and it starts to shut down your computer.

It sounds like you're having issues with Windows Live. I had the same issue when that software was installed on my XP system when I switched to DSL broadband. Since I turn off my computer when I'm not using it, Windows Live would use every bootup to check for upgrades. My system would slow to a crawl for up to 30 minutes. I finally set my System Automatic Update settings (go to your control panel) to notify me when updates are available and let me choose when (and which updates) to install.

Nicolas

29-June-2009, 08:01 PM

Office for Mac once asked " do you want to install the upgrade?" As I was doing nothing atm, I clicked OK. The next thing I knew, a 450 MB upgrade was installed within 15 seconds. Nice, what's your problem?

The fact that apparently this program had taken the liberty to perform a 450 MB download without asking me first (it must have been downloaded already before installation, considering the speed of installation)! I've got only 4GB per month...It's the first time I've seen a Microsoft program do anything this severe without asking me. Agreed, Windows Live Windows Update can also start a Service Pack download, but there you can clearly state whether you want to accept every download or let it be done automatically. Office just suddenly broke the news to me. Nice...

ShadowSot

29-June-2009, 10:58 PM

I've had a lot of hassles with Vista. Nothing I havn't been able to fix, but it's still much buggier than XP has been. Once SP2 was installed it performed a lot better, but the run around I went through to get it downloaded... yeesh.
Fun stuff like "Windows Media player was installed incorrectly. Please uninstall and reinstall media player."
Which is, y'know, something y'can't do in Vista.

Alan G. Archer

30-June-2009, 12:09 AM

Concerning "Windows Live," are you referring to the Microsoft Office Live Update (http://office.microsoft.com/client/helppreview.aspx?AssetID=HA102257761033&ns=OFLV20&lcid=1033) for Microsoft Office Live Workspace beta (http://workspace.officelive.com/en-us/), which is one of the online services in Microsoft Office Live (http://www.officelive.com/en-us/)?

Microsoft also provides an online servcice called Windows Live (http://home.live.com/).

NosePicker

30-June-2009, 01:30 AM

And I just got used to Vista. When are they ever going to find a Windows they're happy with?

Not until they hoover every last dime out of your pocket!:mad:

Atraveller

30-June-2009, 03:06 AM

I've had a lot of hassles with Vista. Nothing I havn't been able to fix, but it's still much buggier than XP has been. Once SP2 was installed it performed a lot better, but the run around I went through to get it downloaded... yeesh.

I had Vista crash while installing that SP - and guess what - the whole op system was corrupted. Required a brand new install from the ground up ( I was just lucky that I had a recent back up.)

Ara Pacis

30-June-2009, 06:40 AM

I've never had a problem with Vista, but I have a laptop, so that helps.

Nicolas

30-June-2009, 08:58 AM

Nicolas

30-June-2009, 09:01 AM

Not until they hoover every last dime out of your pocket!:mad:

How often have you been forced to buy a Microsoft product? How expensive is 50€ for an OS?

Celestial Mechanic

30-June-2009, 01:52 PM

How often have you been forced to buy a Microsoft product? How expensive is 50€ for an OS?
In April 1995 I was able to commission a PC with OS/2 pre-installed. When I went back to the same dealer/manufacturer in September 1996 they would no longer do that; I have not been able to get a pre-install of my preferred operating system since. The best I have been able to do is get a system without Windows (and minus the Windows tax, thankfully) and install the operating system myself. Not many are willing to do that; Micro$loth counts on that.

As part of their contracts with Microsoft computer dealers must pay a license fee for all computers they sell whether Windows is installed on it or not. The US DOJ didn't even take a look at this blatantly anti-competitive practice; instead they wasted great amounts of time (and taxpayer dollars) on the topic of whether Internet Exploiter was part of the operating system or not.

I suppose I can't say that I have been "forced" to buy a Microsoft product; on the other hand the convicted monopolistic entity still makes it difficult to get the PC of my choice with my choice of operating system.

Nicolas

30-June-2009, 03:15 PM

I can buy a PC without OS, or even all the components separately at my computer shop. I can also buy a PC with Windows installed at my computer shop. However, I can't buy a Macbook without MacOS installed in my Apple shop. I can't even choose not to have the WIFI in it. It even throws Garageband at me for no reason at all, whether I want to or not. Soooo...

It's only how you look at it. I know one thing, and that's that I've been going through PC's the last 6 years or so and always could keep the same XP (it allows a few hardware shifts) without having to buy a new one unless I wanted to. And if I wanted a new Windows, it would only cost me 50€. And no guns pointed at me. :)

If computer dealers really hated their licensing deals, they shouldn't agree on them. United they are powerful. And they do indeed. Dell doesn't have this exclusive license thing anymore since 2007. You can buy a Dell with Ubuntu or FreeDOS if you want to (http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/ubuntu?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&~ck=anavml).

tlbs101

30-June-2009, 05:44 PM

I just made the switch from 2000pro, to XP home, 3 months ago -- reluctantly, because some new hardware I got didn't have drivers for 2000.

Maybe I'll upgrade to Vista when Win8 comes out.

.

Nicolas

30-June-2009, 06:12 PM

I went from 98SE directly to XP. I'll make my next switch to the first good Windows version after 7, in about 7 years (assuming W7 isn't the best up to date Windows available in 2016 anymore). :)

cjl

01-July-2009, 08:37 AM

Nicolas

01-July-2009, 12:45 PM

That's the way I have set Windows Update as well, and it always worked nice. I didn't even know there was something like "Office Update" as well until it had already downloaded 450MB. Maybe it being "office for mac" had something to do with the function remaining unnoticed.

Trebuchet

01-July-2009, 08:47 PM

I agree that MS products are a bit aggressive about updating themselves, but it's pretty easy behavior to change (at least in Vista). I have mine set to automatically check for updates, but not to download or install them until I have authorized it.

I have it set that way as well since I'm on dial-up but I've had it go ahead and download/install something anyhow more than once. Generally the "Windows Genuine Advantage Notification" spyware.

Edited to add: And periodically the auto update settings somehow get changed back to automatic without any action on my part. I suspect this comes along with some of the updates.

Celestial Mechanic

01-July-2009, 08:56 PM

[Snip!] And periodically the auto update settings somehow get changed back to automatic without any action on my part. I suspect this comes along with some of the updates.
New Microsoft slogan (Paraphrasing Barbara Walters): "You'll stay in touch because we'll stay in touch."

By the way (not directed at anybody), guess how often my OS/2 / eComStation systems call the mothership? That's right, never. Some of my systems have Linux partitions on them (though I have not booted into them in a while). How often do they call the mothership? Right again, never. Food for thought. :)

Trebuchet

01-July-2009, 09:58 PM

Celestial Mechanic

01-July-2009, 10:12 PM

When MS puts a folder on your desktop called "My Computer" they really don't mean it's YOUR computer -- Bill really thinks it's HIS! And he's being very generous by letting you pay for the privilege of using it.When Bill Gates said, "A computer on every desk running our software", he really meant "A computer on every desk running our software and ONLY our software".

BTW, I think that folder is no longer called "My Computer" in Vista and probably in Windows 7 as well. More food for thought.

HenrikOlsen

01-July-2009, 10:27 PM

It's simply called "Computer".

Tucson_Tim

01-July-2009, 10:37 PM

I need to buy a new home computer. What would be the best thing to do?

1) Buy now with Vista loaded? (An OS that has been out for quite a while.)
2) Buy in October with Windows 7 loaded? (A new OS.)

ShadowSot

01-July-2009, 10:46 PM

I need to buy a new home computer. What would be the best thing to do?

1) Buy now with Vista loaded? (An OS that has been out for quite a while.)
2) Buy in October with Windows 7 loaded? (A new OS.)

From initial trials so far, you may be better with Win7.

It seems that factory installed Vista has been hit or miss, with some people finding it stable, others finding it very unstable. (Yo.)

Ara Pacis

02-July-2009, 11:53 PM

I need to buy a new home computer. What would be the best thing to do?

1) Buy now with Vista loaded? (An OS that has been out for quite a while.)
2) Buy in October with Windows 7 loaded? (A new OS.)

Laptop or Desktop? Laptops tend to do better becasue of the limited selection of components and the need for them to all work well. Desktops are more hit and miss with the larger array of components and manufacturer of said parts.

PraedSt

03-July-2009, 01:06 AM

I quite like Microsoft actually. Windows, Office, and Bill Gates. Just don't like IE.

HenrikOlsen

03-July-2009, 08:22 AM

I need to buy a new home computer. What would be the best thing to do?

1) Buy now with Vista loaded? (An OS that has been out for quite a while.)
From what I hear, if you do pick this option, avoid the Vista Home editions like the plague, rather than hobbled they have been crippled.

I'm writing this on a Vista Business edition and apart from the initial hassle of getting used to yet another different way of doing the same jobs.

One thing I do want to rant about a bit is the recent scramble away from having common interface guidelines, which means there's no longer commonality between interfaces in different applications so even the basics have to be learned for each.
I find that to be a long step away from usability and something that makes *nix stronger by comparison.

Tucson_Tim

03-July-2009, 04:21 PM

Sorry Sarongsong for the slight thread hijack . . .

Thanks for the answers to my questions. I'm too lazy to build/assemble my own computer so I buy them fully loaded with the hdw and main software I need. Of course then I have to load the dozen or so other apps I use. My last few desktop computers have been Dell's so I may continue with them.

Tucson_Tim

03-July-2009, 04:23 PM

From what I hear, if you do pick this option, avoid the Vista Home editions like the plague, rather than hobbled they have been crippled.

I'm writing this on a Vista Business edition and apart from the initial hassle of getting used to yet another different way of doing the same jobs.

One thing I do want to rant about a bit is the recent scramble away from having common interface guidelines, which means there's no longer commonality between interfaces in different applications so even the basics have to be learned for each.
I find that to be a long step away from usability and something that makes *nix stronger by comparison.

So, full Vista - no Home editions. Check.

And I'm becoming an old dog when it comes to new OSs - I dread learning the new UIs.

Nicolas

03-July-2009, 06:37 PM

New? Vista still looks a lot like win95. :) Does it have a "classic look" mode like XP has?

Nicolas

03-July-2009, 06:38 PM

Now as far as UI's go, beat the Commodore 64's BASIC (or what was its OS called). You had a line. You could type there. End of manual. :)

HenrikOlsen

03-July-2009, 09:09 PM

New? Vista still looks a lot like win95. :) Does it have a "classic look" mode like XP has?
Not talking OS but applications there.

It looks like there's a scramble away from the common row of menu's across the top towards a plethora of let's hide all useful features in a meaningless icon that each application redefines for their own purpose or a right click menu if you right click exactly the right place and that place is different from application to application drivel.

GeorgeLeRoyTirebiter

04-July-2009, 12:35 AM

Not to diminish your irritation, Henrik, but I find this issue somewhat silly, because none of the major 3D graphics apps even try to follow the OS interface guidelines. They consider maintaining a consistent appearance between platforms to be more important than consistency with any particular platform.

I can see how it might be annoying if I'd been using nothing but software that followed the UI guidelines (hence the fuss over the Office 2007 UI), but that just hasn't been the case for me.

Nicolas

04-July-2009, 09:17 AM

Jeff Root

04-July-2009, 06:22 PM

Nicolas,

It took me several minutes to figure out that 'MB' in 'LMB' and 'RMB' is
'mouse button'. I had to delete the entire post asking you what you
meant. :p

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

Nicolas

04-July-2009, 08:38 PM

:)

It's quite commonly used in manuals, though it makes me pause for a moment too when I read it the first time in a manual. :)

GeorgeLeRoyTirebiter

04-July-2009, 09:07 PM

Yes George, though I must say it's quite annoying that "add to selection" is shift+LMB in program 1, ctrl+LMB in program 2, while "remove from selection" is ctrl+LMB in program 1, and shift+RMB in program 2. Quite confusing, quite annoying. :)

This has nothing to do with Microsoft or Windows, for the record. It's just that there don't seem to be too many standards.

And I hate hidden features.

Oh, completely inconsistent keyboard shortcuts are a different matter entirely. I can usually adapt to a visually wonky UI fairly easily, but keyboard shortcuts require either rote memorization or remapping (if that's even possible). That's always been a problem.

I hate to keep singling it out (especially now that they're trying to fix it), but Blender is one of the worst offenders, as it not only has unique key commands, but it also completely ignores the standard mouse usage. Normally, in a 3D window, LMB is select and RMB is a "fly-out" menu. They make LMB move the 3D cursor, RMB selects, and Spacebar is the menu. Without some kind of a map, there's no way a new user will be able to figure this out.

To Microsoft's credit, they do publish a set of recommended UI guidelines (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa511258.aspx), it's just that everyone ignores them.

As for hidden features, one of the reasons why the Office '07 developers chose to get away from the standard "menus + toolbars" system is that a significant number of feature requests were for features that had been added years ago—making it apparent that they'd reached a level of complexity where people just couldn't find stuff anymore.

Nicolas

04-July-2009, 10:27 PM

To Microsoft's credit, they do publish a set of recommended UI guidelines, it's just that everyone ignores them.

(apparently it changed a bit in Vista, but I have no experience with that). That's also something I like about MS software: even if you've never used one MS program before, you can guess where most functions are found by experience from other MS programs. Great UI commonality.

Another thing that MS has done quite well, which may be unnoticed by English speaking people, is make reasonable suggestions for PC related words in other languages. Many Dutch PC related words are used thanks to Dutch MS products introducing these words. The fact that this MS vocabulary is used so widely, means that they're handy enough to be used. Not too long, not too vague.

HenrikOlsen

04-July-2009, 10:39 PM

(apparently it changed a bit in Vista, but I have no experience with that).
The worst part was trying the new Office and being unable to find "Open".

Apparently opening a document from within the program has become such an exotic operation compared to opening it in the explorer that it's hidden away under two levels of popup menus where the first level is opened by clicking something that looks like an ad banner and is therefore invisible as an UI element.

Nicolas

04-July-2009, 10:48 PM

lovely.

Ara Pacis

05-July-2009, 05:55 AM

I hated the trial version of Office that came with Vista that I ditched it and loaded Office 2000. But that's just for legacy files. I try to use Open Office for everything else, when I can figure it out.

Larry Jacks

05-July-2009, 08:27 PM

The worst part was trying the new Office and being unable to find "Open".

Apparently opening a document from within the program has become such an exotic operation compared to opening it in the explorer that it's hidden away under two levels of popup menus where the first level is opened by clicking something that looks like an ad banner and is therefore invisible as an UI element.

It is my fervent wish that whomever it was that changed the Office user interface spends eternity in an especially unpleasant corner of Hell.

ShadowSot

05-July-2009, 10:54 PM

It is my fervent wish that whomever it was that changed the Office user interface spends eternity in an especially unpleasant corner of Hell.

They already work at microsoft. That's more of a side step for them.

GeorgeLeRoyTirebiter

06-July-2009, 04:44 AM

It is my fervent wish that whomever it was that changed the Office user interface spends eternity in an especially unpleasant corner of Hell.

That would be Jensen Harris (http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/pages/table-of-contents.aspx). Why don't you send him an e-mail to tell him why you think his work as a software designer makes him deserving of eternal torment?

Nicolas

06-July-2009, 09:14 AM

Because he can't find the "send" button in the new Outlook. ;)

mugaliens

06-July-2009, 10:37 AM

The worst part was trying the new Office and being unable to find "Open".

I stopped using Office "open" function years ago. Instead, I merely double-click on the file I want to open and if Word is up, teriffic - the file is loaded. If it's not up, Windows loads it and teriffic - the file is loaded.

Either way, it works.

It helps if you think file first, as opposed to application first.

HenrikOlsen

06-July-2009, 11:41 AM

I mostly want to open one of the last couple of files, so I start Word and open recent.
That means I can forget about where the files are, don't have to hunt for them and can start working instead.

I'm well aware that MS have been pushing the other way of working, but that's not how I organize my thoughts and I don't see why it's considered a good idea to dictate how people should think.

Larry Jacks

06-July-2009, 02:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Jacks
It is my fervent wish that whomever it was that changed the Office user interface spends eternity in an especially unpleasant corner of Hell.

That would be Jensen Harris. Why don't you send him an e-mail to tell him why you think his work as a software designer makes him deserving of eternal torment?

Perhaps I will when I have the time. I've been using Office 2007 for a few months now after using previous versions for well over a decade. The change in user interface actually hurts productivity for experienced users because many of the hotkeys no longer function. It takes me far longer to have to click on their different menus and then search through the display of icons to find the functionality I need instead of simply using a keystroke combination. Proper user interface design would've at least allowed me the option of using the old menus instead of forcing me to use the current monstrocity. For that, he deserves to burn in Hell.

Don't move my cheese, especially not without a good reason.

HenrikOlsen

06-July-2009, 03:41 PM

I read some of the linked to blog, I'm happy to see they realized their mistake with autoconfig dynamic menus and now have them disabled by default.

They broke the fundamental "least surprise" rule by trying to be too clever.

Jeff Root

06-July-2009, 08:28 PM

Lemme guess what 'autoconfig dynamic menus' are... The menus change
to put the most-used functions at the top?

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

Larry Jacks

06-July-2009, 09:11 PM

Lemme guess what 'autoconfig dynamic menus' are... The menus change
to put the most-used functions at the top?

Yeah, that's pretty much it. That was the first "feature" I turned off on Office 2003. It was annoying to have the menus rearrange themselves, plus if you needed an option that wasn't displayed, it slowed you down.

I've used computers going back over 20 years and I know how to type. I've used word processors dating to before Wordstar 3.3. Keyboard hotkeys are far faster and more accurate than having to stop typing, reach over to the mouse, move up and click on a menu, then scroll down to an option (perhaps through one or more submenus).

Office 2007's current user interface reminds me of my biggest complaint about the Macintosh (and they're good computers) - it's like having a racing bike with training wheels that you can't take off.

HenrikOlsen

06-July-2009, 09:14 PM

Lemme guess what 'autoconfig dynamic menus' are... The menus change to put the most-used functions at the top? At least they didn't do something as utterly stupid as that.

Instead they hide the least used choices, which means every operation you last used more than a while ago (which is the closest I every got to predicting the algo) takes twice as long to do, as you first have to scan the menu, see it isn't there anymore, click to expand the menu to show everything again, then scan it again to find the operation you needed.

HenrikOlsen

06-July-2009, 09:16 PM

I've used word processors dating to before Wordstar 3.3.
Which I still remember as having the most logical and well thought out hot keys of any wordprocessor I've ever tried.

Nicolas

06-July-2009, 10:01 PM

At least they didn't do something as utterly stupid as that.

Instead they hide the least used choices, which means every operation you last used more than a while ago (which is the closest I every got to predicting the algo) takes twice as long to do, as you first have to scan the menu, see it isn't there anymore, click to expand the menu to show everything again, then scan it again to find the operation you needed.

Also take into account the time it takes to realize you were indeed scanning the correct menu but the function was simply hidden and not in another menu... I also hate that function. Switch it off asap or ruin my day. :)

I was using Office on a macbook the other day (I know, I know :)) and I really missen keys such as "end", "home". doesn't a mac have these on the keyboard or was it something I was overlooking?

Another thing I couldn't get: where you use key combi's such as ctrl-b, ctrl-i, ctrl-u in Windows PC's for the common MSWord functions, you had to use strange sign-b, strange sign-i, strange sign-u in MS Word on the mac, even though the keyboard has a ctrl button. :confused: Confusing².

Larry Jacks

06-July-2009, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by Larry Jacks
I've used word processors dating to before Wordstar 3.3.

Which I still remember as having the most logical and well thought out hot keys of any wordprocessor I've ever tried.

Not only that, but because the hot keys were so good, they were used in programming environments like Borland's Turbo Pascal & Turbo C and even Microsoft's QuickBasic. I wrote tens of thousands of lines of code in those languages back in the day. Having an integrated text editor that used the Wordstar hot keys was wonderful.

By comparison, I never did like the WordPerfect key setup. If there ever was a rationale for how they chose the Alt, Ctrl, Shift Function Key setup, I never figured it out. Instead, I had to have a key cheat sheet above the function keys. Every time I needed to do something, I had to search the cheat sheet to find the function. IIRC, even Help was F3 instead of the normal F1.

But then, those were the days of the silly "look & feel" lawsuits where companies were forced to make their user interfaces as different as possible from other applications. One of the things Apple did very well was setting guidelines for making Macintosh applications look & feel as similar as possible to shorten the learning curve. I guess the idea made too much sense for the lawyers, though.

HenrikOlsen

06-July-2009, 10:51 PM

By comparison, I never did like the WordPerfect key setup. If there ever was a rationale for how they chose the Alt, Ctrl, Shift Function Key setup, I never figured it out. Instead, I had to have a key cheat sheet above the function keys. Every time I needed to do something, I had to search the cheat sheet to find the function. IIRC, even Help was F3 instead of the normal F1.
I think part of the rationale was ease of use, unfortunately it was ease of use on the old keyboard that has the function keys in two columns to the left of the regular keys, which put F1 at the top left position where Esc is on many current keyboards, and F1 in WP functions as Esc normally does.

Trebuchet

07-July-2009, 12:27 AM

I used to use a CAD program that was designed when the function keys were in two columns on the left. The F1 key was used extremely frequently.

When the new keyboards came out, Escape wound up where the F1 key used to be. In that program, Escape was used to delete the latest element. Not fun for a while.

mugaliens

07-July-2009, 10:27 AM

I mostly want to open one of the last couple of files, so I start Word and open recent.
That means I can forget about where the files are, don't have to hunt for them and can start working instead.

I've always organized by file folder, so I've never had any problem hunting for files.

I'm well aware that MS have been pushing the other way of working, but that's not how I organize my thoughts and I don't see why it's considered a good idea to dictate how people should think.

I quite agree, Henrik! I believe MS should have retained the File, Open function with the list of the top x most recently opened files.

Similarly, my chief complaint against Vista is that the OS is incapable of remembering my choice of View for each folder. I'm constantly resetting them as I navigate throughout my files.

kleindoofy

07-July-2009, 01:23 PM

... MS puts a folder on your desktop called "My Computer" ...
Do this day, I still don't understand why M$ has folders named "mydocuments," "mypictures," etc. created.

Hey Bill, guess what, they're *all* mine.

I guess this just confirms my suspicion that most people don't use their computer for working and--apart from some log files for this game or that--don't really have any files worth mentioning.

Well, I do. Thousands of them. And not *one* of them is in those stupid directories Billy Boy wants me to use.

I really resent how many Window$ programs will default to "mydocuments" when you use "open file" instead of just using the last active directory or something similar.

M$ should come honest and call those directories "yourdocuments" etc., letting on to their view that--as Trebuchet wrote above--the computer is really theirs.

Demigrog

07-July-2009, 02:43 PM

I quite agree, Henrik! I believe MS should have retained the File, Open function with the list of the top x most recently opened files.

They did, it just isn't as obvious. The big icon in the upper left corner (on Vista/Win7 at least, I don't have an XP box handy) has the Open/Save commands and recently used list. We'll see how long they let us keep it.

I can't stand the ribbon control; it wastes too much screen real-estate and doesn't flow logically from the hierarchy of options (everything is strewn around the screen instead of in a nice list that I can scan quickly for what I'm looking for). Also, they never seem to put the common things I want on the same ribbon tab, and not even position is customizable. I really miss docking, customizable toolbars! I'm living in fear that the Ribbon will show up in Visual Studio 2010 and totally ruin my productivity.

Larry Jacks

07-July-2009, 03:09 PM

I wonder if over engineered user interfaces are a growing trend. In addition to the problems with the Office 2007 interface, I've found the same issues with IBM Rational Software Modeler (RSM - a UML 2.0 modeling tool). Too much of the screen is taken over by the user interface leaving less room to do actual work. One of the issues might be that RSM seems to have at least 3 different ways to do any task. While that allows for flexibility, it leads to a larger and more cluttered user interface. In addition, my experience is that some of the ways don't work so the program is inconsistent.

For UML modeling, there is no substitute for working space. I normally work on dual screen systems. When traveling with my laptop, UML modeling on a single screen is a pain because the actual working area only represents a small percentage of the screen real estate. If I minimize some of the UI sections to get more working room, I'm constantly having to enlarge it to do the most simple things.

In my software engineering classes, I was taught that a good UI should be flexible and tailorable to meet the needs of different classes of users. For example, novice users or children might see a menu with 3 choices. Intermediate users might see the full menu and expert users might not need menus at all (hot keys).

HenrikOlsen

07-July-2009, 06:51 PM

They did, it just isn't as obvious. The big icon in the upper left corner (on Vista/Win7 at least, I don't have an XP box handy) has the Open/Save commands and recently used list. We'll see how long they let us keep it.
As I said, it's placed where it looks visually like decoration/a banner ad and is therefore nearly invisible as a UI element.

DonM435

08-July-2009, 01:57 PM

On just about every other text editor (and many other applications) in Windows, [F3] is "Find Next." But not in MS Word. I can reprogram it thus, but it is odd.

Nicolas

08-July-2009, 05:03 PM

mugaliens

09-July-2009, 08:35 AM

And not *one* of them is in those stupid directories Billy Boy wants me to use.

I really resent how many Window$ programs will default to "mydocuments" when you use "open file" instead of just using the last active directory or something similar.

That used to irk me! Then I shrugged, and now all my folders are under My Documents. A link on my desktop takes care of the rest.

GeorgeLeRoyTirebiter

10-July-2009, 01:06 AM

Just a small rant, but for a board that goes all teary whenever someone uses a disrespectful pun such as "astronaughts" or "astronots", threads like these tend to be awfully full of things like "micro$soft, M$, Window$, Microsloth", etc. A bit of consistency wouldn't hurt.

But how would we express our software snobbery without such affectations? We can't possibly allow other people to think that we approve of such populist software. Of course, most of us use their products, but not by choice. We were coerced!

I don't actually mind Office 2007, but my dad did call me yesterday to ask, "How the hell do you open a file in the new Excel?" That "Office Button" is the biggest failure of the new design.

Glom

10-July-2009, 02:55 PM

I've got Windows 7 on my home PC. It does look fantastic, which is a key thing for getting it to sell in the home market. It's pretty functional too. I haven't used it intensively. My home PC is really only used as a media centre. There is no monitor, only the TV, connected through HDMI. This makes it awkward to just read things on the Interweb and despite have a remote keyboard and mouse, it's not the most comfortable to working on Office etc. I'm typing this on my company supplied laptop, which is running on XP.

I haven't made heavy use of Office 2007 yet because of the aforementioned. I do however know that it has lots of cool features that I would really like to be able to use in my work. The enhanced conditional formatting in Excel could be just so incredibly useful for me. I also see a lot of potential in the 3D graphics in Powerpoint.

I sympathise those who complain about the ribbon. It definitely takes up more space than the toolbars of Office 2003, which is annoying. I also heavily customise my toolbars. I haven't yet seen an obvious means of customising the ribbon. Not being a heavy Office 2007 user yet, I have yet crack it yet. When I get to know it I might end up liking it even better.

I'm wondering when my company is going to start moving into the future. We skipped Vista obviously. I hope we're not going to wait more years before moving on. We're also still on Office 2003 and even worse IE6. The latter is an outrage. YouTube are ceasing their support for IE6 soon. Before you ask, some people had installed IE8, but we got a snotty e-mail round telling us to remove it. We need to move to a newer web browser right now. Office 2007 really would be good too.

Celestial Mechanic

10-July-2009, 04:10 PM

pumpkinpie

10-July-2009, 05:50 PM

Similarly, my chief complaint against Vista is that the OS is incapable of remembering my choice of View for each folder. I'm constantly resetting them as I navigate throughout my files.

Ditto. There HAS to be a way to save the choice. Sometimes it remembers it, sometimes it doesn't.

Demigrog

10-July-2009, 06:56 PM

Just thought I'd list the Windows 7 features that have impressed me the most. None of them are really earth-shattering enhancements, just subtle tweaks that might make me prefer Win7 to XP:

1) Multiple monitor support in Remote Desktop. I can finally work from home without feeling claustrophobic. (at least until IT kills our VPN access later this year. :mad: )

2) Hovering over taskbar items makes window visible, other windows go to glass. Finally, I can quickly glance at a hidden window without actually changing focus from my current app. The show desktop hover on the toolbar is also very handy.

3) Built-in virtual XP support. Several apps I work on do not run in Vista/Win7 natively; now I can at least sort-of run them. This is really a Virtual PC enhancement more than a Win7 feature, but they bundle it with the OS so I have to give them some credit. (did I mention USB in Virtual PC finally!)

4) Much better about thrashing my hard drive. I have my PC on my desk with fairly loud (though 15k RPM, it is a good tradeoff :) ) drives. Vista 64 drives me crazy with the clicking. Win7 it only clicks when I'm actually doing something.

5) Several neat new APIs. The sensor API has simplified accessing GPS considerably, though my Win7 machines are desktops so it isn't much use to me. Multi-touch is great; in my multiple monitor setup at work, I've got one multi-touch enabled LCD to the left of my two main LCDs; I keep a bunch of useful gadgets open on it, so I can very easily access stuff I need with one hand without stopping my work with the mouse on the other monitors. Very nifty.

sarongsong

29-July-2009, 08:23 PM

July 24, 2009
...MS will now offer [EU] consumers a "ballot screen" on first boot, allowing purchasers to make their own (we're hoping informed) decision about which window into the web they'll be looking through. Additionally, while Windows 7 will still include an install of IE, users will have the option to disable it, and computer-makers will also be allowed to pre-load any browser they see fit for their systems...
engadget.com (http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/24/microsoft-relents-to-european-commission-will-give-users-browse/)...and the non-EU world?

pzkpfw

29-July-2009, 10:01 PM

Ditto. There HAS to be a way to save the choice. Sometimes it remembers it, sometimes it doesn't.

Try some of the stuff here: http://www.vistax64.com/tutorials/70819-windows-explorer-folder-view-settings.html

From what I've read, the BagMRU size settings is the most common issue. (Not enough slots reserved to remember folder settings).

Me? I hate Word. I hate Word. I hate Word. I hate Word. I hate Word. I hate Word. Any version, ever. Office 2007 has not made it better, and it's made Excel worse.

Glom

30-July-2009, 11:13 PM

Me? I hate Word. I hate Word. I hate Word. I hate Word. I hate Word. I hate Word. Any version, ever. Office 2007 has not made it better, and it's made Excel worse.

I can make Excel 2003 sing and dance. I haven't used Excel 2007 very heavily. I do like the significantly enhanced conditional formatting features though, not just greater options of formatting, not just the grade icons or colour spectra options, but the fact you can have more than three rules.

I used it improve my Westminster electoral calculator by allowing a fourth colour to be added for nationalist wins. But that's pretty much the extent of my usage of that iteration at this point.

I get annoyed by Word 2003's outline numbering. It is really hard to keep it tamed. I'd like to be able to use the full force of the tools for outline numbering, table numbering, figure numbering etc, but it has a mind of its own. Don't know how Word 2007 is.

darkhunter

01-August-2009, 06:09 PM

I am known for using Access at work for building databases for lots of things--I like being able to set up reports so any question can be answered easily.... their problem is that I don't bother making the input forms for them to be able to use it easily so they get lost every time they try to get into it ;)

It doesn't help that I built/add stuff as I need it so they get complicated--fast.

LunarOrbit

03-August-2009, 12:12 AM

Do this day, I still don't understand why M$ has folders named "mydocuments," "mypictures," etc. created.

Hey Bill, guess what, they're *all* mine.

I guess this just confirms my suspicion that most people don't use their computer for working and--apart from some log files for this game or that--don't really have any files worth mentioning.

Well, I do. Thousands of them. And not *one* of them is in those stupid directories Billy Boy wants me to use.

I really resent how many Window$ programs will default to "mydocuments" when you use "open file" instead of just using the last active directory or something similar.

M$ should come honest and call those directories "yourdocuments" etc., letting on to their view that--as Trebuchet wrote above--the computer is really theirs.

I think you're reading too much "evil" into Microsoft's reasoning behind the "My Documents" folders.

They did that because you can have multiple user accounts on your computer, and each account gets it's own document folder to keep things not just organized but private. I can only access the files in MY documents folder, not the ones in my co-worker's folder.

Linux does the same thing, it's just organized differently.

It's a GOOD thing, so I'm not sure why people are so upset over it.

pzkpfw

03-August-2009, 01:00 AM

They did that because you can have multiple user accounts on your computer, and each account gets it's own document folder to keep things not just organized but private. I can only access the files in MY documents folder, not the ones in my co-worker's folder.

Yes, and related to being private - it's sort of meant to be the place you can access, and hopefully not much else.

For example, a game or other software should not be writing data into its' folder under "program files" or wherever; it should be using a folder under your own profile. That's a security thing - it's to help prevent viruses attacking the executable code of an application; by having the "progam files" folder locked down tightly.

Of course, users have to be running under a non-privileged account for that to help. (You need to "normally" use your PC as though you are a pleb, and log on as an admin only when you need to do stuff like install new apps.) That so many people run as admins is one reason why in Vista you get all those "confirm?" dialogs.

(Not that I'm any model citizen.)

Nicolas

05-August-2009, 12:31 PM

Small correction on an earlier rant:

I said that MS Office for Mac downloaded a 532MB update without warning me (about its size at least). Now I think it's actually a much smaller update, with an unclear installation message. I think that the "this installation will require 532MB on your hard disk" message refers to MS Office it is updating, not just the update.