Michael Jackson dies

[chrissy]

Just come in that Michael Jackson has died of a heart attack:

News (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20090625/ten-pop-icon-michael-jackson-dead-tmz-co-c3b52a1.html) today.

Pop icon Michael Jackson died Thursday after suffering a cardiac arrest, the entertainment website TMZ.com reported.

The website reported that Jackson, 50, suffered a heart attack just after 12:00 pm (1900 GMT) local time and paramedics were unable to revive him.

Jackson's manager Tohme E. Tohme was not immediately available for comment when contacted by AFP. Officials at UCLA Medical Center where Jackson was treated also could not be reached for comment.

[captain swoop]

BBC saying Cardiac Arrest. no official confirmation he is dead yet.

[slang]

It's confirmed on the major news sources now. RIP MJ.

[chrissy]

ITN reports THIS (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090625/ten-michael-jackson-dies-ea4616c.html)

[Josh]

This actually has hit me in a strange way. I was never one of those massive diehard fans, but always appreciated his music. I feel like a bit of my childhood has died. Michael Jackson was the first tape (yep ... remember those?? TAPES) I ever bought. I grew up with his music. His music was always cutting edge for its time. His dance moves and video clips led the way to the future of music.

I don't think it's overstating it at all to say that today is the day that a special part of music died. RIP MJ.

[chrissy]

I remember tapes, man I still have a few...:D
I feel the same Josh, there were a lot of his songs I liked very much, he will be missed. :(

[Gillianren]

I'm with you, Josh. My brain just won't process the information. When I was in kindergarten in the '82/'83 school year, the bus driver used to play "Billy Jean," and we'd all sing along. The next year, for Halloween, a kid down the street dressed up as the glitter glove. Not Michael Jackson himself--the glove. I think that was the same year he set his hair on fire (that particular hair care product and pyrotechnics don't mix), and one of the girls in our class got all weird about him.

Part of his problem was his family, and part of his problem was that he didn't understand that there is such thing as bad publicity. I don't answer to the man's personal life, but for all of us children of the '80s, we're going to have to spend some time internalizing this.

[mugaliens]

I always thought he'd die of a broken heart if Diana Ross passed away, not Farah Fawcett; I'm sure it's merely coincidental.

I do feel for his kids, though.

He was a seriously talented performer who's efforts heavily influenced pop, hip hop, and contemporary R&B, while transforming the music video business. The only notable music video predecessor of any artistic note was Peter Gabriel's Shock the Monkey.

Some of his successes, however, were overhyped, including the ridiculously over-rated and over-awarded Scream music video he did with his sister.

Thriller was better.

[HenrikOlsen]

I'm sorry to say that the news left me cold.

I had no expectations for him to make anything worthwhile in the future that we'll now miss and the publicity has been utterly uninteresting for decades so there's no entertainment missed either.

The only thing interesting about him is the music he already recorded and we still have that, so that won't be missed either.

[kleindoofy]

A dear friend of mine died on Monday at 37, a woman who gave warmth to those around her although she had very little herself.

Michael Jackson? I share HenrikOlsen's want of heat.

[R.A.F.]

I'm sorry to say that the news left me cold....The only thing interesting about him is the music...

Saddly, I must agree...appearently he rehearsed for the "new" concert series until it killed him. The best thing I can say is that he left Paul McCartney the Beatles catalogue in his will.

[Josh]

I'm not sure I understand the benefit or drive to come into a thread mourning the passing of someone and decrying their memory just to have your say. To come in and say you think the person was evil for one thing or another is one thing and that would be understandable (even if a little contentious), but to come and say I feel nothing … seems somewhat self centred and a call for attention. “look at me, look at me”.

[R.A.F.]

...but to come and say I feel nothing … seems somewhat self centred...

Perhaps you should address this to Henrik, in private.

[Josh]

My comments were directed at a number of people in this thread.

[Tucson_Tim]

I think Michael Jackson was an amazing, electrifying performer at his peak. And at his peak I think he was the King of Pop Music. I will miss him.

[novaderrik]

I'm not sure I understand the benefit or drive to come into a thread mourning the passing of someone and decrying their memory just to have your say. To come in and say you think the person was evil for one thing or another is one thing and that would be understandable (even if a little contentious), but to come and say I feel nothing … seems somewhat self centred and a call for attention. “look at me, look at me”.
what about those of us that don't feel sadness, but also don't feel nothing?
i'll stop short of saying i'm glad the guy is dead, but.. well, i'll just leave it at that.

[Atraveller]

I have to admit I am more sad about the loss of Farrah, even if expected. But both were entertainers - this will be a day noted in the history books for both of them I guess...

RIP FF, RIP MJ

And apparently Jeff Goldblum is NOT dead, contrary to some reports...

[Perikles]

I'm sorry to say that the news left me cold.Me, too. The only interesting aspect of this death is how society has changed over the past few decades so that now, the death of an entertainer is treated as something really important. News reporting has clearly changed to reflect what is important to people, rather than what is significant in political or economic terms.

[Nicolas]

Me, too. The only interesting aspect of this death is how society has changed over the past few decades so that now, the death of an entertainer is treated as something really important.

Elvis.

[geonuc]

I don't think it's overstating it at all to say that today is the day that a special part of music died. RIP MJ.
No overstatement at all. Michael Jackson was a giant in the music world.

Namaste, Michael.

[Jason Chapman]

You won’t get a much bigger story than this over the weekend. I can just about remember when the news that Elvis had died. Back in 1977 you didn’t have the mass media and communication that you have today, news was practically drip fed to the various news agencies. Last night I couldn’t believe the speed at which this story was flashed around the world; it was out literally within ten minutes of his passing.

I think everyone has criticized his style of living over the last twenty years I know I have, and the media vilified him during the child sex allegations. However all that aside you cannot deny the genius when it came to his music, I still think today that Thriller has the best dance sequence performed on a pop video ever. There will be an outpouring of grief by his fans that will equal Diana I think.

RIP: MJ and that chick from Charlie’s Angels

[mfumbesi]

This actually has hit me in a strange way. I was never one of those massive diehard fans, but always appreciated his music. I feel like a bit of my childhood has died. [...] I grew up with his music. His music was always cutting edge for its time. His dance moves and video clips led the way to the future of music. [...]
RIP MJ.
I'm with this sentiment.
I might be lying a bit, I have two CD's from Michael Jackson and The Jackson Five.
I loved the music, I grew up in the 80's, so the glove, moonwalk and the spinning thing was the rave then.

The "living me cold" sentiments expressed above, does not bother me much (freedom of expression and all), but then again I'm of the school "If you don't have something nice to say about the dead....". There are exception off course, like a tyrant, a murderer, generally an unsavoury character. I expect people to say their peace in that instance.

RIP MJ

[Buttercup]

Children of the '80s? Try the '70s. :) Yep, I'm a Gen-Xer.

Tapes? I remember vinyl LPs and 8-tracks.

Sure was shocking news. :( My sister telephoned, freaking out a bit.

I'll miss him. Got my "Thriller" CD years ago. A cousin and her best friend played "Thriller" over and over in '83. :lol: I (a teenager then) remember visiting their apartment; never heard an album so repeatedly played, other than Stayin' Alive by the Bee Gees a handful of years earlier.

"Thriller" was HUGE. Hard to believe it's going on 30 years soon.

[Nicolas]

Tapes? I remember vinyl LPs and 8-tracks.

I still have -and play- the Thriller and Bad vinyl LP, the Bad maxi single, and a flimsy square sampler single-sized vinyl from Thriller, made by Technics. You had to put a coin on it to play it (otherwise, it was too flimsy). And some Jackson 5/Jacksons stuff. And I was born 2 years after Thriller. The X-side graffiti on our school walls was already faded when I was young. ;)

[Buttercup]

Jason Chapman: You won’t get a much bigger story than this over the weekend. I can just about remember when the news that Elvis had died. Back in 1977 you didn’t have the mass media and communication that you have today, news was practically drip fed to the various news agencies. Last night I couldn’t believe the speed at which this story was flashed around the world; it was out literally within ten minutes of his passing.

Yes, that's for sure. I remember Elvis' death. Have to stop and remind myself occasionally of what you point out; times and media sure have changed!

[Tinaa]

THe first album I ever got was Skywriter. I loved the Jackson 5. Then I found Donny Osmond and he was my teen heart throb though I still liked MJ's songs.

[closetgeek]

I wasn't a huge, die-hard fan of Michael Jackson, there were maybe three songs of his that I genuinely liked. Two days ago, I was surfing the radio stations and that song The Way You Make Me Feel was on a station. I didn't listen to it because I ever really liked it but for the nostalgia. Like most of the people here, in my generation, if you grew up in the 80's, Michael Jackson was a part of it somewhere. For me, it's just weird. He did have a massive following and I am sorry for those who feel the loss.

[Argos]

Michael Jackson was great. The first time I heard him, back in 72, I was stunned by his crystal voice. His teenager stage performances were superb and 'Thriller' is the best thing the pop culture ever produced, in terms of technology. He was made of the same stuff as Fred Astaire and Sammy Davies. A complete artist and a great loss.

Rest in Peace, Jacko. You have made my days brighter.

[Kelfazin]

I'm struck by the thought that MJ was so vilified in recent years, and now there's this great massive outpouring of love and grief around the world. Did he know how much we cared? If not, shame on a lot of us. Whether you believe he should be vilified or not, it's very sad a life was lost so young. And he WAS a great musical talent, and that's a loss that can't be replaced. He was a human being, he had a family that loved him. If nothing else, sympathize with them for their loss of a father, a brother, or a son.

[Buttercup]

The one thing which strikes me in seeing the old video clips is how sexy Michael was. :) I guess during the actual time I wasn't paying attention (real-life distractions)...but WOW. :D Especially in white shirt and black trousers. Watching him move and dance was always as pleasurable as watching Bruce Lee's martial arts films. In fact, I've wondered -- considering how light, quick, agile and graceful Michael was -- if he'd have been excellent in the martial arts too, if he'd trained.

[Fazor]

I don't answer to the man's personal life, but for all of us children of the '80s, we're going to have to spend some time internalizing this.

I agree with this, and with what Josh said. I never was a fan of his music. But I won't deny it was good, it just want's my style of music. My brother use to love his stuff, so every-other car ride we'd listen to it (take turns between his tapes and mine). As a person, I thought he was creepy and a loon. I don't know if any of the "other" allegations are true or not, and I don't really care.

Yet when I heard of his passing, it left a weird empty feeling. MJ has been the pop icon for my entire life. It's just odd knowing he's not there anymore.

Oh well, that's how life works. People live and then they die. Money and fame don't change that.

And as for tapes, I have a couple of Weird Al tapes in my car right now. I always thought tapes just seemed that much more . . . substancial(?) than CD's. It's probably the same way people who grew up with records feel about tapes.

[Daffy]

I never met Michael Jackson, and really know nothing about him.

I do know one thing, though: in the '90s I had a very brief flirtation with fame when our first CD came out. Of all the articles/interviews published about our story, not one---not a single one!---got all the details correct; some were so far off I would suspect mockery were it not that incompetence is the simpler explanation.

Maybe something to think about when remembering Michael Jackson?

[megrfl]

Michael was great, when he was Michael-Michael. I mourned the loss of him many years ago. Hope that makes sense.
Things got strange and stranger, but without a doubt, he was great, talented, and in some cases amazing.
I hope he found his place in the world with the birth of his children and becoming a father.
His music will last forever.

[thoth II]

I heard he sold 50 million copies of one of his albums, that is so mind blowing, it is hard to believe.

So long, old friend

[Kelfazin]

Interesting article on CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/06/26/michael.jackson.internet/index.html) about the size of this whole thing

As sites fell, users raced to other sites: TechCrunch reported that TMZ, which broke the story, had several outages; users then switched to Perez Hilton's blog, which also struggled to deal with the requests it received.

CNN reported a fivefold rise in traffic and visitors in just over an hour, receiving 20 million page views in the hour the story broke.

[Fiery Phoenix]

^ Incredible!

[Spock Jenkins]

I was one of those kids that used to poke fun at Michael Jackson. I didn't really gain an appreciation for his musical talent until the last few years. Condolences to his family and loved ones as well as to all those fans that are more emotionally invested than I.

Regarding the allegations, he was found innocent. Not that the courts are always right, but I do try to keep in mind the size of the bulls-eye a person of his fame would be wearing. Anyone looking to make a buck would go after him. Interviews I've seen remind me of a child. It may be that when he watched a movie in bed with a child, he doesn't think anything more than another ten year old would about it. I don't think we'll ever find ot the truth about this part of his life.

It will be interesting to see what "facts" come out about his life now that he isn't around to guard his secrets.

[Ampatent]

Being of the generation that knew Michael for his other life, I find myself somewhat unable to produce an emotion about the events of yesterday. On one hand I know the man for what he has been in the past years, on the other I know of the accomplishments he had and the ground breaking work he did at the peak of his career.

One things for sure, the King of Pop has died.

(An interesting side-effect of the sheer size of this whole thing is that most of the social networking sites knew anything before the big news networks. I was first informed of his cardiac arrest via Twitter and found that neither CNN nor BBC knew anything about it.)

[Metricyard]

I don't answer to the man's personal life, but for all of us children of the '80s, we're going to have to spend some time internalizing this.

Now I feel really old. What about us children of the late sixties, early seventies? We watched the young Jacksons playing on American Bandstand, seen the Jackson 5 cartoons on Saturday mornings, watched them numerous times on the Ed Sullivan show. He was a powerhouse many years before going to a solo career.


Michael was great, when he was Michael-Michael. I mourned the loss of him many years ago. Hope that makes sense.
Things got strange and stranger, but without a doubt, he was great, talented, and in some cases amazing.
I hope he found his place in the world with the birth of his children and becoming a father.
His music will last forever.


Not that I'm a big fan of MJ or the Jackson 5, but no one can not deny that he was a powerhouse in the music/entertainment industry. Unfortunately, in his later life, MJ used his fame to take advantage of a lot of people around the world to keep up his rich lifestyle.

Being around the same age as MJ is what makes his sudden death so scary, for me anyway. It really does put time into perspective. On the one hand, it seems so long ago that I used to watch the Jackson 5 cartoons on Saturday mornings, on the other, one questions where the time went.

[Buttercup]

Regarding the allegations, he was found innocent. Not that the courts are always right, but I do try to keep in mind the size of the bulls-eye a person of his fame would be wearing. Anyone looking to make a buck would go after him. Interviews I've seen remind me of a child. It may be that when he watched a movie in bed with a child, he doesn't think anything more than another ten year old would about it. I don't think we'll ever find ot the truth about this part of his life.

If I may? I never believed Michael to be a pedophile. He was eccentric and child-like; he identified with those children on their level. People who best "knew" him said he was a 12 year old in a man's body. All his best adult friends had been child stars themselves (Liz Taylor, Brooke Shields, etc.).

He was dumb to open himself up to unsavory allegations. Someone close to him should have warned Michael that being so close to children endangered his reputation and security. Maybe they tried and he was so lost in his own world...But being dumb doesn't mean you're guilty.

Anyway, one thing which turned me off last night were a few gawkers trying to get on-camera attention. :rolleyes: Look at ME! Going for 0.5 nanoseconds of quasi-"fame." At the expense of a dead man. That is SO pathetic and I silently cheered one of the camera operators for swiftly moving a camera away as one self-important gawker tried for another full-face shot. :rolleyes:

[R.A.F.]

He was dumb to open himself up to unsavory allegations.

If he wasn't a pedophile, then he was "dumb" to surround himself with children who would so easily lie about him.

[Perikles]

One things for sure, the King of Pop has died.No, a King of Pop has died.

[closetgeek]

If he wasn't a pedophile, then he was "dumb" to surround himself with children who would so easily lie about him.

The problem with betrayal is you never know when it's coming or who it's coming from. Either way, most children don't make up things like that without the aid of an adult.

[geonuc]

If he wasn't a pedophile, then he was "dumb" to surround himself with children who would so easily lie about him.
It seems to me children are easily manipulated to say many things.

[Fazor]

It seems to me children are easily manipulated to say many things.

I can make my niece say anything I want. All I have to do is craftily say "Say [whatever]" and she'll (usually) obey.

[Argos]

Carl Sagan comments this psychological phenomenon in detail in his book "Demon Haunted World".

[Kelfazin]

If he wasn't a pedophile, then he was "dumb" to surround himself with children who would so easily lie about him.

Or maybe just psychologically underdeveloped from being in the spotlight from age 3 forward, living for the love and adoration of strangers while his own father abused him.

[Dgennero]

I deem it possible that Jackson's relation with Jordan Chandler (there's this infamous book "Michael Jackson was my lover") did have a sexual component but was not abusive (kids have crushes and Jackson might just have a thing for teen boys, partly because developmentally he still was one) - what was abusive was IMO the way the Chandler family capitalized on this to get at Jackson's money.
What really happened we'll never know, but the world isn't black-and-white, so anything's possible.
R.I.P. MJ.

[Doodler]

Or maybe just psychologically underdeveloped from being in the spotlight from age 3 forward, living for the love and adoration of strangers while his own father abused him.


He was basically living his childhood now that he had the power to give it to himself. He probably saw those kids the way most people might have looked at the kids they would have interacted with had he had a normal childhood.

Me personally, I enjoy a good joke at anyone's expense, even my own, but as far as the allegations, nothing proved, nothing to hold against him. People who think only the guilty settle need their heads examined with power tools.

[Fazor]

Well, he was creepy. Whether he was creepy in a criminal way may never be known. I don't think the allegations are true; but would quickly add that my opinion is based off of a very limited knowledge of the events and a healthy cynicism over the number of people who want money for nothing.

[Kelfazin]

He was basically living his childhood now that he had the power to give it to himself. He probably saw those kids the way most people might have looked at the kids they would have interacted with had he had a normal childhood.

Me personally, I enjoy a good joke at anyone's expense, even my own, but as far as the allegations, nothing proved, nothing to hold against him. People who think only the guilty settle need their heads examined with power tools.

I totally agree.

[R.A.F.]

I deem it possible that Jackson's relation with Jordan Chandler...snip...did have a sexual component but was not abusive...

Are you seriously attempting to justify a sexual relationship beween an adult male and a teen boy as not being abuse?

Do any other posters actually agree with Dgennero's opinion?

[HenrikOlsen]

I think that's a direction this thread should stay well clear of.

[kleindoofy]

... we'll never know ...
Exactly.

That's more or less the only correct phrase in the whole thread.

I'm wagering a guess that nobody here knew him or spent time with him. Anything we "know," we "know" from the mass media. The mass media is known for being soooo reliable, basing its reporting solely on the truth and its self-critical quest for the same.

Anybody who thinks he "knows" anything about Jackson is lying to himself.

That said, I still haven't changed my mind about not really caring that he passed away. So did many other people. Media hype turns me off, not on.

[Paul Beardsley]

My understanding is that this thread is not called "the Michael Jackson mourning thread" - rather, it is a place to comment on the fact.

IMO he was simply someone who was given a lot more airtime than his output deserved. Others may disagree, and I'm okay with that. But MJ is on my small list of people who make me get up to switch the radio off or change to another channel - even if Plastic Bertrand is on the other channel.

[Gillianren]

Anybody who thinks he "knows" anything about Jackson is lying to himself.

Well, he existed . . . .

[kleindoofy]

Well, he existed . . . .
:lol:

Err, I meant the rumors, the allegations, the accusations, the guesses, the lies, ...

Those belong on GLP. BAUT should be above that.

[Buttercup]

He was basically living his childhood now that he had the power to give it to himself. He probably saw those kids the way most people might have looked at the kids they would have interacted with had he had a normal childhood.

Me personally, I enjoy a good joke at anyone's expense, even my own, but as far as the allegations, nothing proved, nothing to hold against him. People who think only the guilty settle need their heads examined with power tools.

I agree.

His defense attorney was interviewed last evening, saying Michael broke down weeping on his shoulder when informed of how long/arduous the last trial might be. Attorney said Michael was like a 12 year old, crying nearly hysterically.

I think Michael settled because he couldn't handle the pressure.

If he was indeed innocent (I think so; just terminally immature and unwise), all the nonstop media coverage, humiliation, tabloids, having to be in court for many months on end...yes, I could see him or another mega-star settling a suit to avoid the harrassment and nightmare.

He shouldn't have opened himself up to getting into that predicament in the first place of course. :rolleyes:

[sarongsong]

June 26, 2009
...a long-time confidant and friend of 21 years said..."...The number one cause of drug addiction in the world---and particularly in the United States---is not street drugs, but medical prescriptions given legally by physicians."...
wendyista.blogspot.com (http://wendyista.blogspot.com/2009/06/deepak-chopra-says-michael-died-from.html)(CNN transcript excerpt)

[chrissy]

Please keep to the thread, it isn't open to any discussions regarding his private life or what was alleged.

[R.A.F.]

My understanding is that this thread is not called "the Michael Jackson mourning thread" - rather, it is a place to comment on the fact.

Appearently you are wrong....in other words only those posters who have "nice" things to say about Jackson are "allowed" to comment....which seems rather strange to me.

Perhaps this thread should be locked now.

[Doodler]

It didn't take long before the jokes started making the rounds. I can't think of one off the top of my head I wouldn't be banned in a nanosecond for posting, but they've been worth a giggle or two.

[mahesh]

One time, many moons ago, late one night, watching a funny Walter Matthau film, towards the end, I had kinda 'fallen asleep'; next woke up to the weird scenes and sounds emanating from the tv screen....scared the doodies out of me, I tell ya....
It was Michael Jackson's Thriller. Promotional video or something; first screenings.

Poor puppet! He never did have a real childhood. Somebody moronic always pushing him.
I always thought that children shouldn't sing songs like that. The kind of songs he sang or was forced to sing....
It was uncomfortable, listening.

Sorry. It, your childhood, I mean, was painful for you. You hung out with not very nice guys.

Well, RIP Michael. At least you left some nifty dancing routines of excellent foot movements behind, for us.

Thanks for that.

[novaderrik]

It didn't take long before the jokes started making the rounds. I can't think of one off the top of my head I wouldn't be banned in a nanosecond for posting, but they've been worth a giggle or two.
i've gotten more than a few giggles out of the jokes.
but, then again, my opinion of the guy was not so favorable, anyways.
yes, his childhood was taken away from him- but with the money he had he could have worked on "fixing" himself emotionally instead of trying to "fix" himself physically. and eventually we all have to grow up and stop having little boys over for sleepovers and talking about it like it's perfectly normal when in front of a camera.
so, nope, no pity from this guy.

[Gillianren]

yes, his childhood was taken away from him- but with the money he had he could have worked on "fixing" himself emotionally instead of trying to "fix" himself physically.

You have to recognize that you have a problem first, and someone so sheltered might not.

[Dgennero]

In another thread on a German discussion forum where I am moderator somebody brought up the interesting question how it is possible to feel affected, to feel grief for somebody we don't know personally.
It could be that it is because we form an association with this person and events in our own life.
I went through interesting and turbulent times in the early 90s, and MJ's electrifying rhythms on the album "Dangerous" sort of built me up.
I am not a fan of MJ, I have no idols, but I still feel sad about his premature death.
And we also see here that all the money and fame in the world won't make you a happy and content person if you don't like yourself, and obviously MJ indeed was always dissatisfied with his appearance.

[kleindoofy]

... how it is possible to feel affected, to feel grief for somebody we don't know personally. ...
One shouldn't overlook the lemming effect of the media consuming masses, especially when the media puts the hype machine in turbo mode.

The mob effect isn't restricted to hate and violence. It can also create artificial feelings of mass sorrow.

I'm not doubting that there are people who genuinely feel a loss, but I mistrust mass hysteria.

On the other hand, it's interesting to see that in Jackson's case the usual politically correct boo-hoo threads found all over the net when an A-celeb leaves the stage are unusually ríddled with critics. At least one forum is actually officially warning members for posting neutral, not even critical, opinions instead of bawling their eyes out via keyboard.

Talk about lemmings.

[Damburger]

A dear friend of mine died on Monday at 37, a woman who gave warmth to those around her although she had very little herself.

Michael Jackson? I share HenrikOlsen's want of heat.

I had a similar experience once.

My dad left when I was 3, and my mother worked so she couldn't be there when I came from school. I used to go round to my neighbours house every day. She would fix me something to eat, and we would play cards and I would tell her about my school day. One of those family friends who ends up getting called 'Auntie'. Anyway, she died September 11th, 2001. When the media tries to drum up a collective sense of loss for people you have never met, it is jarring when it coincides with a personal loss. It is quite an alienating sensation because everybody else's mind is elsewhere.

But lets put some perspective on things. The loss of celebrities, victims of high profile crimes, and people you know are all nothing but a drop in the ocean of human suffering. 24,000 people died of hunger the same day Jackson died, and none of them were deemed worth of comment.

[novaderrik]

just to add to the weirdness that surrounds this whole deal, i heard today that Sylvia Brown- the psychic that is so talented that she has to go on the Montel Williams show all the time to wow the masses into buying her books- predicted in a book a few years back that Michael Jackson and Farrah Fawcett would die on the same day in the year 2009..

[mahesh]

just to add to the weirdness ....... Michael Jackson and Farrah Fawcett would die on the same day in the year 2009..
I thought I was reading a weird newspaper, Friday, about five pm, when I realised what had happened! Spooky.

Is Montel William show still on??? Geez! How about Phil Donahue??
Phil, the first and only one.

[R.A.F.]

...predicted in a book a few years back...

Which book would that be?

[Gillianren]

I wouldn't call what I'm feeling grief, exactly, and it certainly isn't media-produced, as about the only media exposure I've had to the issue was my local radio station first announcing it and then telling me, half an hour or so later, a few more details. But really, it didn't take that latter report to produce the effect. It was just . . . something missing that had always been there. I didn't know the man. I didn't even really like most of his music. But those first few years of media awareness mean that he's tied into my childhood in ways I cannot avoid.

And, Kleindoofy, I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

[Paracelsus]

Michael Jackson made a couple of good albums and was a great dancer, no question. He also was a certifiable weirdo and a child molester.

Everybody seems to be conveniently forgetting the latter two characteristics in the rush to canonize him as this great singer who transcended racial boundaries, etc, etc. Those 'racial boundaries' had already been transcended long before he came along, and everybody also seems to have forgotten his strenuous efforts to make himself look white via skin-bleaching and grotesquely-excessive plastic surgery.

Everybody also seems to have forgotten that two other 'icons', Farrah Fawcett and Ed McMahon, also died on the same day. Both of these people also made notable contributions to pop culture, and neither one has ever molested a child.

Yet who mourns them?

[SolusLupus]

He also was a certifiable weirdo and a child molester.

Everybody seems to be conveniently forgetting the latter two characteristics in the rush to canonize him [...]

Weirdo, I'll give you. Child molester? Well, you're free to your assumptions. I'm more familiar with a skeptic's site, though, so I've learned not to take every assumption to be solid fact.

[...]and everybody also seems to have forgotten his strenuous efforts to make himself look white via skin-bleaching[...] This is, of course, assuming that Jackson and his personal doctor lied about his skin condition. They may very well have done so, but your criticism seems to be directed at people who do not draw the same conclusions that you do. Odd, that. I'm sure they're all supported with incontrovertible evidence, yes?

Both of these people also made notable contributions to pop culture, and neither one has ever molested a child. For all we know, none of the three subjects mentioned in your thread has ever molested a child.

[HenrikOlsen]

Both of these people also made notable contributions to pop culture, and neither one has ever molested a child.
There has already been multiple warnings in this thread to stay away from that type of allegations in this thread.
Enjoy your day off.

[Jens]

Though I don't know how accurate news reports get, I was pretty shocked by the number of medicines that he might have been taking. IIRC, there were two opioid painkillers, maybe two benzodiazepines, and two SSRIs. It seems somehow sad that a guy who was so successful in what we typically see as success had to take so many drugs. I wonder if he could have given up his mansion and moved to the countryside to grow vegetables or something. I mean, if he was happy with what he was doing, that would have been wonderful, but (again, assuming) if he had take antidepressants, it makes it seem like he wasn't really so happy.

[Gillianren]

. . . But (again, assuming) if he had take antidepressants, it makes it seem like he wasn't really so happy.

Changing his lifestyle may not have changed a thing. If he needed the antidepressants for biochemical reasons and they weren't yet another overprescription.

[geonuc]

I try not to read too much into what drugs people are taking. I'm currently taking what is classified as an antidepressant, but in my case, it's because one of the beneficial side-effects is headache relief. And I have been prescribed SSRI's for non-depression reasons as well.

[Daffy]

Though I don't know how accurate news reports get, I was pretty shocked by the number of medicines that he might have been taking. IIRC, there were two opioid painkillers, maybe two benzodiazepines, and two SSRIs. It seems somehow sad that a guy who was so successful in what we typically see as success had to take so many drugs. I wonder if he could have given up his mansion and moved to the countryside to grow vegetables or something. I mean, if he was happy with what he was doing, that would have been wonderful, but (again, assuming) if he had take antidepressants, it makes it seem like he wasn't really so happy.

I didn't know Michael Jackson...but is anyone with that kind of money ever happy? I have met quite a number of extremely wealthy people in my life; I have never met a single one who seemed happy. I honestly think that being a well adjusted human requires some struggle in life...when life gets too easy, that seems to be when trouble starts for a lot of people.

As far as Michael Jackson, I never met the man and (like virtually everyone speculating about him) know nothing about his individual circumstances.

[Josh]

I didn't know Michael Jackson...but is anyone with that kind of money ever happy? I have met quite a number of extremely wealthy people in my life; I have never met a single one who seemed happy. I honestly think that being a well adjusted human requires some struggle in life...when life gets too easy, that seems to be when trouble starts for a lot of people.

As far as Michael Jackson, I never met the man and (like virtually everyone speculating about him) know nothing about his individual circumstances.

I know some very, very rich people. I find that they are for the most part as happy or depressed and have similar problems as the rest of society. That being said though, a guy I went to school with is the son of one of the richest people in Australia (consitently in the top 4 richest on the BRW Rich List). He is one of the most down to earth and happy peope I know. Is it the money? Probably not. But he doesn't live like you'd expect someone with that amount of money to live. He does lots of charity work and genuinely brings joy to those around him. And while he uses his money to do that, I think it's the bring joy to everyone that probably makes him a happy person ...

I've seen lots of interviews over the last few days where Michael Jackson is saying making music made him happy and brought him joy. I can obviously only speak about what I've seen (having no inside information), but from all the interviews and videos and photos I've seen of MJ, he's an entirely different person when performing. There's a happiness about him that's not there at other times.

Perhaps it's like a drug .. and when you're away from it too long you have withdrawls and sink into depression.

[Daffy]

I know some very, very rich people. I find that they are for the most part as happy or depressed and have similar problems as the rest of society. That being said though, a guy I went to school with is the son of one of the richest people in Australia (consitently in the top 4 richest on the BRW Rich List). He is one of the most down to earth and happy peope I know. Is it the money? Probably not. But he doesn't live like you'd expect someone with that amount of money to live. He does lots of charity work and genuinely brings joy to those around him. And while he uses his money to do that, I think it's the bring joy to everyone that probably makes him a happy person ...

I've seen lots of interviews over the last few days where Michael Jackson is saying making music made him happy and brought him joy. I can obviously only speak about what I've seen (having no inside information), but from all the interviews and videos and photos I've seen of MJ, he's an entirely different person when performing. There's a happiness about him that's not there at other times.

Perhaps it's like a drug .. and when you're away from it too long you have withdrawls and sink into depression.

I dunno...my experiences have been different, but that really doesn't mean much other than they were, well, different. I had a billionaire CEO tell me once that he envied my life style! I really do think sometimes that if someone were to offer me 10 million dollars, the best thing I could do is run screaming into the hills.

OTOH, I do like to think I am well grounded enough to handle it. So if anyone would like to try the experiment, my bank account number is...

[sohh_fly]

She's just a girl,who claim's that I am the 1.

[Nicolas]

Alternatively, you could have chosen a suitable part of MJ lyrics and posted them without typos in it.

[Argos]

I didn't know Michael Jackson...but is anyone with that kind of money ever happy?

Well, if money is the root of all evil, boy, I wanna be bad. :)

Who´s bad?

[Spock Jenkins]

I wonder how "Weird Al" Yankovic is holding up?

[Gillianren]

"Weird Al" has, so far as I know, not been approached for comment. Despite the fact that he's been more regularly releasing music over the last decade and a half or so.

[Paracelsus]

I didn't know Michael Jackson...but is anyone with that kind of money ever happy? I have met quite a number of extremely wealthy people in my life; I have never met a single one who seemed happy. I honestly think that being a well adjusted human requires some struggle in life...when life gets too easy, that seems to be when trouble starts for a lot of people.

As far as Michael Jackson, I never met the man and (like virtually everyone speculating about him) know nothing about his individual circumstances.

Well, I've never experienced great wealth, but I can tell you that it sucks to be broke. Given the choice of having too much of a good thing (like money, looks, brains) or too little, I'll choose 'too much' every time.

[Daffy]

Well, I've never experienced great wealth, but I can tell you that it sucks to be broke. Given the choice of having too much of a good thing (like money, looks, brains) or too little, I'll choose 'too much' every time.

I think I would, too (and I am just coming out of a very bad 6 months financially)---but, truthfully, I don't really know. Still, I'll grant that I have spent my whole life with not enough money (what's enough, though?), and wouldn't mind trying the other. Perhaps the trick is simply knowing how much is enough.

Might be good to insert a definition here (I am paraphrasing someone, but I don't recall whom): "Rich" is when you no longer have to work for your money; your money works for you. I do stand by my comment that some struggle is necessary for a healthy psyche, though.

[HenrikOlsen]

I suspect that part of it is that you can't become super rich unless you'll always be unhappy with what you already have and must strive for more.

People who are emotionally capable of seeing some amount of money as enough will never become really rich because they'll have reached their ideal level far earlier.

[Arneb]

I am not sure. You can always win (or struck by) the lottery, inherit the money or simply find out that what you do is exremely sucessful. Did all the computer whiz kids sho started out in garages do what they did to become fantastically rich? I am not sure.

Still, most very rich people are children of very rich people.

[Trantor]

Michael Jackson was a great artist. A strange bird indeed, but that is often the case with superior artistic talent. Unlike many of today's top performers, he actually wrote most of his own music. He is often mentioned along with the Beatles and Elvis as the top three musical artists of all time. His album sales exceeded both the Beatles and Elvis.

Now the fight for his money begins.

[Daffy]

Now the fight for his money begins.

Possibly not. According to news reports (which I take with a grain of salt) his estate is massively in debt.

[Celestial Mechanic]

Possibly not. According to news reports (which I take with a grain of salt) his estate is massively in debt.The biggest drain on the wealth of Michael Jackson has been, ironically, Michael Jackson himself. Sadly, now that he's gone his estate will join those of Elvis Presley and John Lennon as the top earners among the dead.

[Daffy]

The biggest drain on the wealth of Michael Jackson has been, ironically, Michael Jackson himself. Sadly, now that he's gone his estate will join those of Elvis Presley and John Lennon as the top earners among the dead.

That makes sense...I wonder how long before it is in the black? Given how much he was spending, probably not long...I never would have thought of that.

[Assilyc]

The biggest drain on the wealth of Michael Jackson has been, ironically, Michael Jackson himself. Sadly, now that he's gone his estate will join those of Elvis Presley and John Lennon as the top earners among the dead.

415,000 albums and over 2.3 million songs have been downloaded since he died.

http://www.mj-blog.com/mj-latest-news/the-michael-jackson-effect

[Paracelsus]

I suspect that part of it is that you can't become super rich unless you'll always be unhappy with what you already have and must strive for more.

People who are emotionally capable of seeing some amount of money as enough will never become really rich because they'll have reached their ideal level far earlier.

Outside of winning the lottery or coming into a huge inheritance.

I suspect that most of Jackson's troubles did not stem from his great wealth so much as his lack of people in his inner circle whom he could trust. Wealth, power, and fame attract all kinds of unsavory hangers-on, and one of the hardest tasks for those possessing large amounts of those 3 characteristics is weeding out these parasites. Also, being very famous, wealthy, and/or powerful breeds an equally-large ego that does not like to hear the word 'no'. From all accounts, Jackson was surrounded, or had surrounded himself, with yes-men, who would not question anything he did or dare deny him anything he wanted, so long as they were getting paid. This will inevitably result in a terrible sense of isolation and alienation.

One should also keep in mind that Jackson's life had been this way since he was a child. He never had a normal childhood, and he'd almost never known a time when he wasn't being lauded and/or exploited for his talent by the adults around him.

No wonder he distrusted adults so ferociously.

[kleindoofy]

... I wonder how long before it is in the black? ...
Now there's something Jackson seems to have had problems with.

In more ways than one. ;)

[Trantor]

I read that his debt is somewhere around 500 million dollars, but that his assets probably exceed 1 billion dollars; but with his crazy lifestyle, I don't think anybody really knows the whole debt picture yet. Even before his death, his record sales for this year alone were around 500 thousand, so future earnings look very good. I also read that he had a world tour scheduled starting with England. Tickets for 50 sold out shows in England had already been purchased by fans.

Also, the chimp named Bubbles, that used to live in his house and go on tours with Jackson, is alive and well, and living in an ape santuary here in Central Florida.:)

[HenrikOlsen]

I also read that he had a world tour scheduled starting with England. Tickets for 50 sold out shows in England had already been purchased by fans.
The money to cover that will come from the insurance company rather than from his estate though.

[Argos]

I suspect that most of Jackson's troubles did not stem from his great wealth so much as his lack of people in his inner circle whom he could trust. Wealth, power, and fame attract all kinds of unsavory hangers-on, and one of the hardest tasks for those possessing large amounts of those 3 characteristics is weeding out these parasites.

Such an irony for a guy who once sang "there´s a man, who plays the game of life so well.."

Still, people crave this kind of life. Thank the stars [I mean, the Internet] it´s becoming increasingly difficult to achieve that level of fame.

In the future, everybody will be famous for 3 nanoseconds [and that´s a good thing].

[DonM435]

Elvis' career did soar after he died. It could happen again.

[Daffy]

Still, people crave this kind of life. Thank the stars [I mean, the Internet] it´s becoming increasingly difficult to achieve that level of fame.



Or any level...promoting one's self as a musician used to be so much easier on the internet than it is today. The major labels managed to shut down most of the really good sites. Irony writ large there, since, in their efforts to stifle competition, they hurt themselves as well.

[Gillianren]

Outside of winning the lottery or coming into a huge inheritance.

I think earning a lot of money doing something you love is different from just raw accumulation of wealth. Yes, famous people often get crazy stalker types--someone broke into Stephen King's house once, and someone threw herself into his limousine, declaring that she was in love with his mind--but from what I've read, there are a lot of people genuinely happy who have a lot of money that they've earned. We've got "Microsoft millionaires" around here, and a fair number of them take early retirement with the money they've got and just enjoy themselves.

[Assilyc]

Exclusive Michael Jackson Rehearsal Video June 23 Released!

http://www.mj-blog.com/mj-latest-news/exclusive-michael-jackson-rehearsal-video-june-23-released

[Jens]

Elvis' career did soar after he died. It could happen again.

I thought you could only die once. As long as you're not a cat, of course. :)

[HenrikOlsen]

First we'd need a confirmation that the myth about him not dying is real, then he'd have to die again.

It would probably result in two spikes in his sale, but neither would be as large as the first.

[chrissy]

Now there's something Jackson seems to have had problems with.

In more ways than one. ;)

I think one shouldn't even go down those lines kleindoofy as it is not a good advert for BAUT.

[Assilyc]

First we'd need a confirmation that the myth about him not dying is real, then he'd have to die again.

I'm not too sure about that, Hendrik. I may have found something totally unreal I'd like to share.

While filming inside the main house at Neverland, they caught a ghost on tape!

http://www.mj-blog.com/mj-weird/michael-jacksons-ghost-caught-on-tape-at-neverland

[Gary_Glitter]

Damn, I hope he gets better soon. If not, I would like to volunteer to continue his work with the children.

[HenrikOlsen]

Damn, I hope he gets better soon. If not, I would like to volunteer to continue his work with the children.
Not a happy choice of subject to joke about, especially with that username. Don't come back.

[roverich]

There are rumors floating around that he faked his death to spike sales due to financial issues ....Something about he was seen getting out of a cab in mexico after his death ....Its going to be like the elvis thing ...He was seen working at a mcdonalds in iowa ...LOL

[Frog march]

I'm not too sure about that, Hendrik. I may have found something totally unreal I'd like to share.

While filming inside the main house at Neverland, they caught a ghost on tape!

http://www.mj-blog.com/mj-weird/michael-jacksons-ghost-caught-on-tape-at-neverland


interesting.

maybe the video has been added to though.


I do believe in ghosts, and have come to the conclusion that there isn't any reason why they couldn't be captured on video, or in photos.

[Assilyc]

interesting.

maybe the video has been added to though.


I do believe in ghosts, and have come to the conclusion that there isn't any reason why they couldn't be captured on video, or in photos.

Hi Frog march,

In the even that it was added to the video - this begs another question - why?

And most importantly, this was live on TV. I've been looking for more info on this. A lot of people said they saw this on CNN.

Very strange, indeed.

[Tog_]

The fireplace in the main bedroom where they do the tour has a similar fireplace set on an angle. The top opf the light colors wall on the fireplace at the far end of the hall seems to be an angle as well, this time with the left side being the further away. As the camera pans around from the shot in the bathroom, we can see the sunlight hitting a wall on the right side. This would mean the sun was coming from the left as the "ghost" is shown. WHat's more, it appears between the camera and a wall angled to the left in what appears to be a pretty well lit room.

My initial reaction is that it was a person waling in front of a patch of sunlight being reflected off of the hardwood floor. As they move toward the camera, the shadow would cross the angled wall from left to right.

In the close up, they appear to have a cup in ther hand; like a coffee cup.

[Starfury]

My thought on the subject is simply this. I think that all the strain he'd been under in the past few years--the accusations of inappropriate conduct, the reported financial difficulties, the pressure of just being Michael Jackson--it was too much for him. It simply killed him.

[Nicolas]

Indirectly, yes. At least, I assume that pressure is the main reason for feeling the need for strong medication to give yourself some sleep.

[mugaliens]

Indirectly, yes. At least, I assume that pressure is the main reason for feeling the need for strong medication to give yourself some sleep.

Starfury, I know a few things about pressure, and Nicolas is correct in that if one is overburdened and not sleeping, things tend to mount until people wind up self-medicating. Usually it's with alcohol, but if prescrip or nonprescript drugs are around, they'll often go that route, too.

Proper, and well-educated medical help is vital in helping people cope and recover. The med I was given cured my 3 years of insomnia overnight. I wonder how Michael would have done had he been given the same med I'd been given?

Alas, medicine remains a practice, not an exact science.

[HenrikOlsen]

Proper, and well-educated medical help is vital in helping people cope and recover. The med I was given cured my 3 years of insomnia overnight. I wonder how Michael would have done had he been given the same med I'd been given?
Not to belittle your mental health problems, but I suspect Michael was under somewhat more pressure than you were if your insomnia could be permanently cured overnight.

[Nicolas]

There must be a kingsize joke somewhere in using "insomnia" and "overnight" in one sentence, but I just can't find it.

[sarongsong]

Yikes!July 6, 2009
I am willing to pay 5000 CASH for 2 of the tickets!! but i need them within a couple hours...
- craigslist(for tomorrow's Los Angeles memorial (http://www.cbc.ca/arts/music/story/2009/07/06/jackson-tickets.html), I'm assuming.)

[Assilyc]

Yikes!(for tomorrow's Los Angeles memorial (http://www.cbc.ca/arts/music/story/2009/07/06/jackson-tickets.html), I'm assuming.)


You are assuming correctly. Ticket winners can theoretically sell their second wristband, according to Staples Center spokesman Michael Roth.


Part of post removed. Do not discuss that subject. Neither side of it.
HenrikOlsen

[Daffy]

My thought on the subject is simply this. I think that all the strain he'd been under in the past few years--the accusations of inappropriate conduct, the reported financial difficulties, the pressure of just being Michael Jackson--it was too much for him. It simply killed him.

My thought is that I didn't know the man---or any of the people involved---and have no idea whatsoever what the truth is.

[sarongsong]

Memorial Service to Be LIVE Broadcast to Theatres in up to 31 States Nationwide (http://investor.cinedigm.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=394100)

[kleindoofy]

Memorial Service to Be LIVE Broadcast to Theatres in up to 31 States Nationwide
Well thank God. Now my soul can find rest. :wall:

[Gillianren]

Not to belittle your mental health problems, but I suspect Michael was under somewhat more pressure than you were if your insomnia could be permanently cured overnight.

Also, what works for one person doesn't reliably work for another and not all mental health problems are created equal.

[sarongsong]

Well thank God. Now my soul can find rest. :wall:Not so fast there, kleindoofy, you'll have to travel out-of-state; Massachusetts is not on the list. :(

[mugaliens]

Not to belittle your mental health problems, but I suspect Michael was under somewhat more pressure than you were if your insomnia could be permanently cured overnight.

I seriously doubt it. You weren't there, so you have no idea, and it's disingenuous of you to make qualitative statements indicating you have some insight in the matter.

Rather, I suspect, as I indicated in my post, he was simply never given the med I was given.

[sarongsong]

...the med I was given.Well, what was it?

[NEOWatcher]

I really was hoping to avoid posting in this thread. Let me just say that MJ was a person of extremes both good and bad...

Anyway; the crowd around Staples is unexpected to the extreme.
Expected: up to 700,000 (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/entertainment/Up_To_700_000_Expected_At_Jackson_Memorial.html)
Actual: 1000 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31780623/ns/entertainment-music/)

Just a bit off.

[roverich]

Yikes!(for tomorrow's Los Angeles memorial (http://www.cbc.ca/arts/music/story/2009/07/06/jackson-tickets.html), I'm assuming.)

Sadly , They have also loaded e-bay with a bunch of outrageously overpriced things ...There is at least 2 pages of MJ domain names ...With buy it now prices of 12 million ... Oh yea , There is a pair of bracelets and tickets for sale with a buy it now price of 999.oo dollars ...I thought the memorial service was over ..Dident it happen this morning ?

[sarongsong]

Yes, but BAUT's post dates don't always coincide with the actual dates post were written. :)

[Atraveller]

Yes, but BAUT's post dates don't always coincide with the actual dates post were written. :)

How true - my posts always come out as yesterday - although I write them tomorrow...

:lol:

[Buttercup]

I am a fan, have been since the early '80s. But this is getting old. It's not just about celebrity and achievement, it's also (no one's saying it openly in the press of course) about identity. Yes, there has been a highly unpleasant past and a certain segment of the population has indeed come a long way. But this isn't Birmingham 1956 (is it?). This carrying on (and on and on) as though he's on par with Jesus Christ and/or discovered the cure for cancer is getting a bit annoying. Is all this ongoing hoopla an indirect way of competing with Elvis? Maybe not, but the fanfare is getting out of hand (same as for Elvis). Neither of these men were our President.

Meanwhile the inventors and scientists who developed all the wonderful technology we all enjoy today go continually unsung (pardon the pun). :rolleyes: Humans and our serious lack of priorities. :(

[Celestial Mechanic]

[Snip!] Anyway; the crowd around Staples is unexpected to the extreme.

Expected: up to 700,000
Actual: 1000

Just a bit off.
No surprise, considering that LAPD announced at great length how they were going to cordon off the area surrounding the Staples Center at great inconvenience to those who live and work there. At least they didn't threaten to shoot anyone who tried to get close, I'll grant that much.

[Daffy]

No surprise, considering that LAPD announced at great length how they were going to cordon off the area surrounding the Staples Center at great inconvenience to those who live and work there. At least they didn't threaten to shoot anyone who tried to get close, I'll grant that much.

LAPD are wrong no matter what they do. Had they not issued that statement, people would be complaining that they were racists for not taking steps to insure everyone's safety. LAPD officer has to be the most thankless job on the planet.

[mugaliens]

Oh, I could think of one or two less thankful jobs...

[sarongsong]

Uh-oh :eek:August 24, 2009
...the Los Angeles County Coroner has ruled that Michael Jackson's death...was a homocide [manslaughter, per "Hardball with Chris Matthews"]...found that the anesthetic propofol and two other sedatives formed the lethal dosage...
prefixmag.com (http://www.prefixmag.com/news/michael-jacksons-death-ruled-a-homocide-by-los-ang/32095/)

[Daffy]

Uh-oh :eek:

Is assisted suicide (since, clearly, that's what it was by any reasonable definition) the same legally, as homicide? Is there any legal distinction? Just curious.

[Gillianren]

Surely they ruled it a homicide!

[HenrikOlsen]

Unless the intent was to indicate that not only was he killed, he was also gay when he was killed. :)

[Daffy]

Unless the intent was to indicate that not only was he killed, he was also gay when he was killed. :)

Aaaaaarrrgggh! *runs into the street, holding nose...* LOL!

Actually, I was just wondering about the distinction (if any) between the 2 crimes in general, not just this case. They did rule it a homicide (I will never be able to look at that word the same way again); just wondering what the legal distinction is, or if there is one at all.

[kleindoofy]

RIP = Rumors Increase Profits

This is such a totally non-topic that it hurts. :wall:

[sarongsong]

RIP = Rumors...What rumors---a coroner's ruling?

[Jens]

Is assisted suicide (since, clearly, that's what it was by any reasonable definition) the same legally, as homicide? Is there any legal distinction? Just curious.

I think that would depend on the local laws. There are places (like the Netherlands) where assisted suicide is not illegal.

In the case of Michael Jackson, it seems to me that the boundary between homicide and suicide becomes blurry.

[sarongsong]

Depends on the motive.

[Daffy]

In the case of Michael Jackson, it seems to me that the boundary between homicide and suicide becomes blurry.

Sure seems that way. But that's what I am wondering about. Is it classified as the same type of crime if a doctor prescribes drugs a patient demands, as opposed to forcing those drugs in him/her (joke unintended) against the person's will? Don't know why I am curious about this, but I am.

[geonuc]

Is assisted suicide (since, clearly, that's what it was by any reasonable definition) the same legally, as homicide? Is there any legal distinction? Just curious.
There is a distinction in that homicide is a general term referring to the killing of a human being by another human being. Common usage usually takes on the narrower meaning of an unlawful killing.

So, if assisted suicide is illegal, than it may be an unlawful homicide. The culpability of the 'assistant' depends on local laws.

[geonuc]

Is it classified as the same type of crime if a doctor prescribes drugs a patient demands, as opposed to forcing those drugs in him/her (joke unintended) against the person's will?
Short answer is no, those circumstances are not the same from a legal culpability point of view. Local (and perhaps federal) law would determine exactly how each would be classified as a crime.

[mugaliens]

A jury will decide. It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone died after taking properly dosed and prescribed medication.

On the other hand, the coroner's report also stated the medication given was a general anesthetic, and should not have been used as a sleep aid.

Having suffered from insomnia between 2005 and 2008 (fixed now!), I am well aware of how bad insomnia can get. It could simply be his doctor was not very well versed in the medications currently available.

Mine wasn't.

[geonuc]

A jury will decide.Not exactly. A judge will decide. Judges decide law; juries decide facts.

[Daffy]

Thanks, gang!

Btw, Mugaliens, I am going through bouts of insomnia myself; it is truly the pits. I am not taking anything for it; hopefully, once the causes of the stress go away, the insomnia will too.

[Cougar]

Is assisted suicide (since, clearly, that's what it was by any reasonable definition) the same legally, as homicide? Is there any legal distinction? Just curious.

I'm not into criminal law, but I do believe there are a number of distinctions here, mainly having to do with the intent of the party at fault. I would venture to say that Jackson's doctor never intended to kill him. And I would also venture to say to Jackson never intended to kill himself, so "suicide" would not be properly applied here, nor "assisted suicide."

Manslaughter is where one negligently kills another, but didn't intend to. And apparently various levels of negligence yield various degrees of manslaughter.

I think "assisted suicide" has a special meaning - someone with a terminal disease who is in great pain, or is paralyzed with no reason to live, may need help ending it all. But there, there is intent by both parties. Kevorkian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian) spent 8 years in prison for being the "helper" in over 100 such suicides.

[Gillianren]

Also, laws do vary by jurisdiction. We here in Washington voted in a "death with dignity" act in the last election, though I believe both local hospitals have declined to be part of the process. However, a doctor in Washington who assists in the suicide of someone given less than six months to live will get a very different legal reaction than I would if I helped someone who just really wanted to die.

[kleindoofy]

What rumors---a coroner's ruling?
I meant this whole MJ crapola in general.

Btw, California may be different, but as far as I know, coroners dont' make rulings, they make findings, i.e. they are investigators, not prosecutors. Charges are made by the Attorney General, not the coroner.

I give this matter a sowball's chance in Hell of ever getting anywhere near a courtroom.

Unless, of course, the media has new constitutional powers I am not not yet aware of, heaven forbid.

[Gillianren]

Btw, California may be different, but as far as I know, coroners dont' make rulings, they make findings, i.e. they are investigators, not prosecutors. Charges are made by the Attorney General, not the coroner.

The coroner isn't issuing a charge. The coroner is ruling it homicide--ie, an intentional overdose of drugs--which is perfectly within their purview.

[geonuc]

And the district attorney generally brings criminal charges, not the Attorney General.

[kleindoofy]

Yes, I'm sure you're both right.

What I mean is that the coroner may make a finding/ruling about what happened, but formel charges are brought by another level. That level also decides which charges are brought and how they are interpreted.

There's a huge gap and a long road between finding/ruling what happened and charging any certain person with having done it and proving that in a court of law and getting a verdict.

That road is long enough to feed the media for a very long time. Rumors about who done it, what the charges--if any--will be, if the glove fits, etc. will be flying around well past Easter of next year. A court case? Snowball, Hell, chance.

Like I said, RIP = Rumors Increase Profits, Reports Interrupt Programs, ...

Rest In Peace? No chance.

[Gillianren]

If it's a homicide, an investigation is the proper next step. Crime has been considered news for centuries, and the more so when the criminal or victim is someone well known. Nothing new here.

[BigDon]

Gillian, commenting on your earlier post near the front of this thread where you mention the song "Billy Jean" during your kindergarden year *I* thought about walking to school with the Jackson Five song "ABC". Came out in 1970 which means I was ten.

Oh and I still have all sorts of vinyl records from back in the 60's and 70's. Beatles, Quincy Jones, Zepelin, Chicago, Elton John, Don Mclean's American Pie. Just looking at them today for the art. I don't have anything that can play them!

[Gillianren]

I do. You should come over.

[BigDon]

Oh, and the darnedest thing made me smile.

How surprised several young parents were at the reaction thier preschool and kindergarden aged children had to some old Jackson Five songs being played during the radio memorials. The aforementioned "ABC" having caused an outbreak of spontanious dance among the Spongebob Squarepants demographic. Eight of them from three families. A previously planned barbeque.

[Daffy]

Oh and I still have all sorts of vinyl records from back in the 60's and 70's. Beatles, Quincy Jones, Zepelin, Chicago, Elton John, Don Mclean's American Pie. Just looking at them today for the art. I don't have anything that can play them!

Just for the record, vinyl has come back in a big, albeit quiet, way. Records are expensive, but turntables are cheap again. Audiophiles are finally recognizing that vinyl just sounds crisper, punchier.

[Dgennero]

IMO, vinyl sounds softer, mellower!
I was horrified when I bought my first CD in 1983 (something by Art of Noise), because it sounded crystal clear, and unnaturally so - like you constantly hear glass breaking.
Could also be that my hearing is sensitive when it comes to high frequencies. Woof rroof ;)

[kleindoofy]

IMO, vinyl sounds softer, mellower!
I was horrified when I bought my first CD in 1983 ...
Yeah.

Since the late 70's, every time there's some so-called advance in the recording industry I have people saying to me "it sounds just like in a concert hall!"

Then I listen to it and, no, it does not sound 'just like in a concert hall."

It took me a while to realize that all the none of the people who have said that to me have ever been to a concert in a concert hall. :whistle:

[Daffy]

IMO, vinyl sounds softer, mellower!
I was horrified when I bought my first CD in 1983 (something by Art of Noise), because it sounded crystal clear, and unnaturally so - like you constantly hear glass breaking.
Could also be that my hearing is sensitive when it comes to high frequencies. Woof rroof ;)

Just has more presence. Of course, the record companies now justify the high price of vinyl records because the sound quality is better. Which, of course, is what they said about CDs.

For me, I love the technology and convenience of CDs (especially in the car) but vinyl just sounds so very good.

[Nicolas]

IMHO (and with a few hundred LP's and CD spanning many decades, an informed HO), the problem is not with the CD medium. The problem is that early 80's digital recordings (I'm talking about the recording process, not the end product, so include vinyl here) tend to sound thin and harsh. Both on LP and CD! Older recordings sound in general nice and warm. Newer recordings also. More recently, you get into the problem of too loud CD's resulting in loss of dynamics. But other than that, a CD can sound just as marvelous as an LP. Different, but not per definition worse, or harsher, or thinner or anything. It's just the combination of early digital recordings and early CD players (which also sounded thin quite often) that gave the CD this bad name.

Seriously, I have early '80's "DDD" vinyl that sounds way more "digital" than younger CD's.

Some examples:

Mike Oldfield Tubular Bells vinyl '70's: nice, warm.
Mike Oldfield To France vinyl early '80's: cold, thin, digital.
Mike Oldfield Tubular Bells 3 CD end '90's: nice, warm. Crisp, but warm.

Striking example:
U2: the Joshua Tree vinyl. Nice, warm.
U2: the Joshua Tree first pressing CD. Cold, digital, terrible.
U2: the Joshua Tree recent CD. Nice, warm, crisp.

Digital music processing in all its aspects took some time to be mastered. This learning process resulted in bad results in the early years, whether it be on vinyl, CD or tape. These problems were solved later.

That said, put on some MJ already. I've got them on vinyl, CD, and musicassette, any flavour you like. Always welcome. Hear MJ like you've never heard him before through the best equipment of the '70's, '80's and '90's. Never mind the neighbours.

[Paul Beardsley]

IMHO (and with a few hundred LP's and CD spanning many decades, an informed HO), the problem is not with the CD medium. The problem is that early 80's digital recordings (I'm talking about the recording process, not the end product, so include vinyl here) tend to sound thin and harsh. Both on LP and CD! Older recordings sound in general nice and warm. Newer recordings also. More recently, you get into the problem of too loud CD's resulting in loss of dynamics. But other than that, a CD can sound just as marvelous as an LP. Different, but not per definition worse, or harsher, or thinner or anything. It's just the combination of early digital recordings and early CD players (which also sounded thin quite often) that gave the CD this bad name.

Seriously, I have early '80's "DDD" vinyl that sounds way more "digital" than younger CD's.

Some examples:

Mike Oldfield Tubular Bells vinyl '70's: nice, warm.
Mike Oldfield To France vinyl early '80's: cold, thin, digital.
Mike Oldfield Tubular Bells 3 CD end '90's: nice, warm. Crisp, but warm.

Striking example:
U2: the Joshua Tree vinyl. Nice, warm.
U2: the Joshua Tree first pressing CD. Cold, digital, terrible.
U2: the Joshua Tree recent CD. Nice, warm, crisp.

Digital music processing in all its aspects took some time to be mastered. This learning process resulted in bad results in the early years, whether it be on vinyl, CD or tape. These problems were solved later.

That said, put on some MJ already. I've got them on vinyl, CD, and musicassette, any flavour you like. Always welcome.
Nicolas, this post could be the basis of an interesting thread in its own right.

[Nicolas]

We had a thread like this before. Had some very interesting discussions with Maksutov in that one.

[Paul Beardsley]

I wish I'd known when he was still with us.

[Nicolas]

To summarize: he spend loads on vinyl equipment and eventually settled for playing CD's and some vinyl bashing puns. ;)

But he still had record playing equipment and vinyl for those records he couldn't find on CD, and IIRC he was digitalising his old records in his final days.

I for one don't really care about the medium, just about the music. Neither medium sounds worse here, just different. And it's lovely to buy Thriller or Bad for 1€ on a car boot sale.

What I prefer in vinyl is the larger sleeve, but that has nothing to do with the quality of the sound of course. :)

[Daffy]

Here's a pretty good article about why vinyl sounds better.

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/question487.htm

[Nicolas]

Erm, from the first drawing that article appears faulty (CD uses Fourier transformation, no sample and hold.) I'll read the article, but I fear the worst...

Edit: read it.

First of all, it is completely faulty in its drawing of how digital audio works. Look up Fourier transformations (hint: a 44kHz block wave is represented as a 44kHz sine wave in a CD, and the low pass filter that your ear is also makes that block wave a sine wave. No "stairs" in the CD output!). Look up human hearing limits. Conclude why CD is what CD is.

Second, that article doesn't really go into the important aspects of vinyl, it just touches the theoretical infinity of analogue, which is utopic. In theory, vinyl has unlimited resolution due to its analogue nature. In practice however, you have the limits of the material (grain size, wall thickness, etc) which also gives limits. Consider for example analog tape cassette recorders, which for a long time failed to go beyond 18kHz.

Vinyl does not "sound better" than CD. Nor worse. Different, yes, a bit. Mainly due to the different mastering required for vinyl (due to its limitations). Cd is not limited by its resolution, if you look at the limits of human hearing and understand how CD really works (Fourier!).

[NEOWatcher]

Considering the topic of MJ's death being a hoax is probably not a good idea here since that thread was closed, but what about the other way around?
Michael Jackson hoax was 'experiment,' broadcaster says (http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/08/31/michael.jackson.hoax/index.html)

A hoax video purporting to show Michael Jackson hopping out of a coroner's van alive was produced by a German television station as an experiment, the broadcaster told CNN Monday.
...
"We sent out a press release before we did the video to alert everyone that it was fake, but once posted it spread really fast," she said.
More than 880,000 people have clicked on the most popular version of the video on YouTube, posted by a user using the name

And from that they determined that those nearly one million people believed it? Just because it's popular doesn't mean its believed.

Even the posted comments they show don't imply that they believed it.

Not everyone was fooled.
Well; I certainly hope not.

[DrRocket]

The coroner isn't issuing a charge. The coroner is ruling it homicide--ie, an intentional overdose of drugs--which is perfectly within their purview.

I rather doubt that the coroner can rule the overdose intentional or not. He can certainly find that death was due to an overdose of drugs, which is not a natural cause of death, but intent is not determinable from the corpse.

I think it takes a jury to determine intent. Hot all homicide is murder. Not even all intentional homicide is murder. And not all homicide is intentional.

http://www.nolo.com/dictionary/homicide-term.html;jsessionid=D67DC0887AD8AF0EDD9BC208EE2C9 2C1.jvm1

http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/criminal-homicide/

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Homicide

http://definitions.uslegal.com/n/negligent-homicide/

[kleindoofy]

In a related story, it has been reported that J.S. Bach is alive and well and has been sighted making french fries at a McDonald's in Topeka, Kansas.

Bach Lives! ;)

[Jens]

In a related story, it has been reported that J.S. Bach is alive and well and has been sighted making french fries at a McDonald's in Topeka, Kansas.


I suspect that he actually died but was brought bach from the dead.

[DonM435]

Well, he did study in Hamburg . . .