New member seeks advise.

[Bob B.]

I am new to this bulletin board so I would like to start by saying hello to everyone. I’ve corresponded with some of you before, and I’ve seen my Web page (http://users.commkey.net/Braeunig/space/hoax.htm) referenced here a few times, so some of you may be familiar with me.

I’ve been considering making some additions to my Web page (http://users.commkey.net/Braeunig/space/hoax.htm) and I’d like to ask for your input. When I originally wrote my page I decide to respond to as many hoax claims as I could (currently at 65 and counting) while keeping my answers as brief as possible. There were several reasons for this. First, I didn’t want the page to be so long that people would lose interest before finishing it, second, I was targeting the HBs who I like to call the “confused”, or the “doubters”, and who often need just a little common sense to straighten them out, and third, I figured the “hardcore” HBs were already beyond help and a lengthy explanation wouldn’t do much good.

However, I’m now considering elaborating on some of the more common hoax claims (probably with a “more info” link). I plan to select half dozen or so topics to focus on. I’d like these topics to include both (1) the claims most frequently repeated by those gullible enough to believe this nonsense, and (2) those claims that the hardcore HBs believe make their strongest case.

I thought I’d probably include something about (1) no stars, (2) waving flags, (3) shadow anomalies, and (4) radiation. From your experiences with the HBs, what other topics do you think would be a good choice to include? You guys have probably seen and heard it all, so I’m interested in your suggestions.

Thanks,
Bob Braeunig

[Glom]

That's your page? Wow, I loved that page. It's the most thorough debunking of the FOX Special I've seen.

[Bob B.]

That's your page? Wow, I loved that page. It's the most thorough debunking of the FOX Special I've seen.

Thanks. After I saw that FOX TV show I couldn't contain myself. If ever a program needed debunking, that was it. :x

[AGN Fuel]

Nice site, Bob. =D>

The 'anomalies' in the photos are a common area of query - the backfill lighting, the 'parallel' shadows, the C-Rock, 'Who Filmed Neil?', the heiligenschein, the vanishing fiducials, the 'missing' LM, and the 'coffee-table book' quality of the photos.

All of these have fairly simple responses, but they just keep cropping up again & again.

[JayUtah]

Welcome Bob! It has been my pleasure to converse with Bob on a number of topics relating to Apollo hoax theories. Anyone who wants a quick course in orbital mechanics would do well to consult his pages on the subject.

[Bob B.]

The 'anomalies' in the photos are a common area of query - the backfill lighting, the 'parallel' shadows, the C-Rock, 'Who Filmed Neil?', the heiligenschein, the vanishing fiducials, the 'missing' LM, and the 'coffee-table book' quality of the photos.

It seems the neophyte HBs tend to bring up the no stars and the waving flags thing all the time (apparently that's all their little brains can handle). As silly as they are, I can't count the number of times I've seen these two items come up. We then tend to move to a second class of HBs. These are the ones who start talking about shadows, lighting, radiation, etc. I'm planning to pass on the C-rock because I already link to a Web page (http://www.lunaranomalies.com/c-rock.htm) that covers that pretty good. I'm also passing on Bart Sibrel's video. For that one I link to Jim McDade's Web page (http://www.ullimanschutte.com/hoax/Debunking.htm), who does a good job of ripping Bart apart.

Please keep the suggestions coming.

[jrkeller]

Bob,

I printed out your website. I'll look it over and give you a few suggestions. In some cases, like the Rover, I don't think you can elaboration much more. Somewhere there is a link to a site that shows the LRV being deployed. Coming out of the LM and then unfolding.

[calliarcale]

Bob,

I printed out your website. I'll look it over and give you a few suggestions. In some cases, like the Rover, I don't think you can elaboration much more. Somewhere there is a link to a site that shows the LRV being deployed. Coming out of the LM and then unfolding.

I like the pictures at The Apollo Image Gallery (http://http://www.apolloarchive.com/apollo_gallery.html). There are all kinds of preflight pictures on the Apollo 15 pages showing the LRV in various configurations as it arrived at KSC on its shipping pallet, as it was unfolded for testing, as it was folded and packed up for its final fit check, and as it was folded and packed up the last time during vehicle integration. It's fantastic. There's even a shot of the LM inside of the adapter atop the S-IVB, taken from the CM as it approached the LM for capture and extraction from the payload adapter. If you look closely on that one, you can see part of the actual LRV.

[Charlie in Dayton]

Well I'll be d*mn*d...another Great Miami River rat. Howya doin' there, Bob? We have to cross paths some night at The Meeting After The Meeting at Marion's Piazza after the Miami Valley Astronomical Society (www.mvas.org) meeting and finalize our nefarious plots against Her Liedership, Mr Hoaxland, and their ilk.

...now watch that I already know this dude and just didn't recognize the name for some reason... #-o

[Watch This Space]

Hi Bob !

You could include evidence obtained from ordinary people, like you and me, that Apollo actually made it to the moon (thus countering the "they never left Earth orbit"-claim).

I think that HB-ers will respond more positive to statements from Joe Ordinary than from the mighty, "anonymous" institution NASA.

http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/trackind/Apollo17/APOLLO17.htm

"The next day the lunar module landed on the Moon and at 1518 local time we picked up main carrier and telemetry from the surface of the moon some 80 minutes after touchdown. Unfortunately the astronauts soon changed to low power which prevented us from getting voice signals because of the too low signal-to-noise ratio. The lunar module transmitted on 2282.5 MHz, but we decided to shift back to the frequency of the command module in lunar orbit, i.e. 2287.5 MHz. The lone astronaut Evans was not very talkative except when he just appeared in front of the Moon or just before he disappeared behind it. At such times he changed to high power and on December 11 we could pick up our first voice signals from the Moon. At 1722.00 local time Ron Evans said: "'Standby three zero" and at l722.30, i.e. 30 seconds later, we abruptly lost the signal as the spacecraft swung, around the edge of the Moon.
The following day, December12, we concentrated on the command module and received strong voice signals on several occasions (Here [7 kB, RA] you can hear Ron Evans say: "The barber pole it is grey", referring to a barber pole-shaped control panel indicator).

Remember, these are ordinary folks picking up signals and voices directly from lunar orbit and from the lunar surface !

[Bob B.]

Well I'll be d*mn*d...another Great Miami River rat. Howya doin' there, Bob? We have to cross paths some night at The Meeting After The Meeting at Marion's Piazza after the Miami Valley Astronomical Society meeting and finalize our nefarious plots against Her Liedership, Mr Hoaxland, and their ilk.

...now watch that I already know this dude and just didn't recognize the name for some reason... #-o

Hello fellow Daytonian. :D It's been on my agenda to check out the MVAS but I haven't gotten around to it yet. When and where is the next meeting? BTW, I don't know the dude.

[sts60]

I think that HB-ers will respond more positive to statements from Joe Ordinary than from the mighty, "anonymous" institution NASA.
Gee, you really are new to this, aren't you?

HBers respond positively to anyone who agrees with them. Anyone who disagrees with them is a dupe or a stooge.

And - welcome to the board!

[Watch This Space]

I think that HB-ers will respond more positive to statements from Joe Ordinary than from the mighty, "anonymous" institution NASA.
Gee, you really are new to this, aren't you?

HBers respond positively to anyone who agrees with them. Anyone who disagrees with them is a dupe or a stooge.

And - welcome to the board!

No, I am far from new to this, but English is not my native language. Hence an inaccuracy in my choice of words. Instead of "HB-ers", lets say "fence-sitters".

The hardcore HB-ers can - much too easy - play the "The Guvmint/NASA/whatever can´t be trusted" card, because we are talking about large, "faceless" institutions far away from the fence-sitters everyday lifes - and perhaps the fence-sitters find it hard to identify themselves with these institutions. To many of them, "NASA" may only be four letters on the screen.

But if you use the examples of for instance that Swedish guy tracking Apollo 17, the fence-sitters might say: "Hey, you know, that guy could be me" - and thus more easily accept that the evidence presented is valid.

[Bob B.]

No, I am far from new to this, but English is not my native language. Hence an inaccuracy in my choice of words. Instead of "HB-ers", lets say "fence-sitters".

The hardcore HB-ers can - much too easy - play the "The Guvmint/NASA/whatever can´t be trusted" card, because we are talking about large, "faceless" institutions far away from the fence-sitters everyday lifes - and perhaps the fence-sitters find it hard to identify themselves with these institutions. To many of them, "NASA" may only be four letters on the screen.

I tend to agree, to a point. There are definitely two classes of HBs, I call them the 'hardcore' and the 'confused' (or 'fence-sitters' if you prefer). If we're talking about the hardcore, then I agree with sts60. However, in all fairness to the HBs, there are some who are willing to listen to reason. I've even been able to turn a few of these people from the dark side. Unfortunately, most of them have their minds made up long before the debate ever begins.

[DALeffler]

Hi Bob, Welcome!

How about: "The early missions were faked but the later ones were real" topic?

[DALeffler]

ooo!!!ooo!!!ooo!!!

No crater under the engine bell.

[Charlie in Dayton]

Well I'll be d*mn*d...another Great Miami River rat. Howya doin' there, Bob? We have to cross paths some night at The Meeting After The Meeting at Marion's Piazza after the Miami Valley Astronomical Society meeting and finalize our nefarious plots against Her Liedership, Mr Hoaxland, and their ilk.

...now watch that I already know this dude and just didn't recognize the name for some reason... #-o

Hello fellow Daytonian. :D It's been on my agenda to check out the MVAS but I haven't gotten around to it yet. When and where is the next meeting? BTW, I don't know the dude.

"......now watch that I already know this dude and just didn't recognize the name for some reason... #-o..." was an off-hand remark to the rest of the BABBlers on board here...there are days I can't remember my own name let alone everyone else's... :oops:

Check here for the latest on MVAS. (www.mvas.org) "The general meetings are open to visitors and are held on the second Friday of each month (except in June). The general meetings consist of brief committee reports, an Astronomy related program, announcements, discussion of related topics, and an opportunity for members to socialize. The meetings are held in the Apollo Observatory (AO) at the Boonshoft Museum of Discovery (BMD). The meeting time is 7:30 PM although times may change for special programs."

Come on down!!!

[JayUtah]

Part of the pay-off for many of the hoax believers is to get some sort of recognition from NASA. Not that they do anything meaningful with it, but they take pleasure from being on NASA's radar. When some joe provides perfectly credible evidence that the hoax theory is balderdash, that doesn't fit the bill. There's no coat-tail that the hoax believer can hitch a ride on.

[Bob B.]

I'd like to thank everyone for your comments. Although I'm new to BABB, I've been debating with HBers for a few years, mainly through personal email (and then there was that one encounter with Jack White (http://www.braeunig.us/space/hoax-jw.htm) :roll: ). Nonetheless, it seems like your experiences have closely mirrored mine. If I do get around to expanding my Web site, I'll post a link on BABB so you guys can critique it.

Something I think would be a very good example for the "no stars" argument would be to show a picture of earthshine like this one...

http://www.braeunig.us/earthshine.jpg

This photograph is exposed to the point that stars are just beginning to be seen (I count seven) but, of course, the sunlite part of the Moon is grossly overexposed. I think it is a real good demonstration of how 'you can't have your cake and eat it too'.

(EDIT: Changed image URL.)

[die Nullte]

And on my monitor, at least as currently adjusted, the stars are invisible. So you have a situation where looking at images, documents -- anything -- on the Internet may be useful for general information and entertainment, but not for serious research.

[die Nullte]

On closer look, I do see a few stars (AHA! So the astronauts could have photographed stars!), but I stick with my previous point.

[Bob B.]

Do the stars show up better in a negative image?

http://www.braeunig.us/earthshine-neg.jpg

(EDIT: Changed image URL.)

[die Nullte]

No, the positive image is better. I can see the stars more easily on my laptop. I see six stars, including both components of an apparent double.

[Bob B.]

I see six stars, including both components of an apparent double.

It is barely visible, but there is a very faint 7th star at about the 7 o'clock position. This is a reduced image, the original larger image shows the stars better. It also looks better in Photoshop.

(EDIT: I just looked at the original and there are two more extremely faint stars near the middle bottom edge. I can just barely make out one of them in the negative image)

[Charlie in Dayton]

There is a way to get stars showing around the Moon, but it takes a little cooperation from the Earth to do it.

Last November's fully-eclipsed (and somewhat overexposed) Moon with the stars -- see the Pleiades off to the left?

http://www.unavowed.net/charlie/08Nov03/MoonAndPleiades.jpg