Phobos & Deimos in Lit predating their discovery?

[A.DIM]

Swift wrote Gulliver's Travels in 1726 and anyone who has read it will recall that the Laputan scientists speak about the two "lesser stars or satellites" of Mars.

The 15th Book of the Illiad by Homer makes reference to the "god" Mars having two companions, Phobos & Deimos.

Cyrano de Bergerac also mentions 2 moons of Mars in Autre Monde.

Voltaire, too, in Micromegas wrote "Coasting along the planet Mars, which is well known to be five times smaller than our little earth, they descried two moons subservient to that orb which have escaped the observations of all our astronomers."

Kepler left the following solution to an astronomical anagram of Galileo:

"Salve umbistineum geminatum Martia proles," or "Greetings to you, the twin offspring of Mars."


So, is it mere coincidence that we find these referrences to Phobos & Deimos before they were discovered? Or is it possible that the 2 Martian moons were known before they were discovered?

[Taibak]

I'm not too familiar with the other references, but we can junk the reference from the Iliad. As far as Homer was concerned, Mars was literally a god (although we should stick with Homer and use his Greek name, Ares). That he had a planet named after him was besides the fact. Anyway, 'phobos' is a Greek word for 'fear' and 'deimos' is a Greek word for 'terror.' The Phobos and Deimos Homer's talking about were actually minor gods associated with fear and terror. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense for the god of fear and the god of terror to be hanging out with Ares, a war god associated with rampant slaughter.

[informant]

The 15th Book of the Illiad by Homer makes reference to the "god" Mars having two companions, Phobos & Deimos.
Mars's moons were named Phobos (http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplanets/nineplanets/phobos.html) and Deimos (http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplanets/nineplanets/deimos.html) because of Greek mythology, not the other way around. After all, celestial bodies don't come with name tags attached to them.

The other references you make are more interesting, as it seems that Mars's satellites were only discovered in 1877.

Here’s a suggestion: when an author wants to make another planet look exotic, he often gives it two moons. See Star Wars for an example. That could have been a reason why those authors got the number of satellites right. Style rather than insight.

I wonder if Kepler's sentence was about the planet Mars at all, or just a poetic reference to Mars as the god of war.

[Edited.]

[A.DIM]

Sorry, but I find the reference by Homer to be even more curious than the others, and I'm surprised that neither of you realize this:
The Greeks attained much knowledge from the Babylonians, they called them "Chaldeans," and when we find in their astronomical texts the planet Mars identified with the "god of war," Nergal, one might realize that not only are the Greek myths of mesopotamian origin, but that the earlier civ identified the "war god" with a planet.

So is it really "literary flare" or "waxing poetic"?
Perhaps... I think.
But it appears to me that there is an astronomical reference to the planet Mars and its two companions in The Illiad. And if the Greeks took from the earlier Chaldeans, how did they know about Phobos and Deimos? :o

[R.A.F.]

So, is it mere coincidence...

YES!!!!

[A.DIM]

So, is it mere coincidence...

YES!!!!

=D> Well I guess that answers that! :-?

[ToSeek]

Keep in mind that for a while there:

Earth had one moon.
Mars had ? moons.
Jupiter had four moons.

It's no great surprise to decide Mars should have two moons, particularly in an era when people were writing treatises on why there were exactly six planets and no more.

[Archer17]

I think before the concept of ancient knowledge of the Martian moons can be considered any more than wild speculation we would have to make a case for the "ancients" possessing instruments capable of imaging Deimos & Phobos. One of the fatal flaws of this line of thinking was pointed out by another poster regarding resenmut's similar claims. Not only would there be records of things these scopes could image, but are conveniently omitted in ancient texts (moons of the gas giants for instance), but such scopes would have had significant military applications as well and would've been mentioned in a straightforward manner, not subject to dubious textual interpretation.

[Superluminal]

IIRC, there was a theroy in the 17th or 18th century, that said since Venus had no moon, Earth one, Jupiter 4, Saturn at that time 8 known moons, it was believed that Mars should have two. That could explain some of the references to two Mars moons. Homer is just a coincedence. #-o

[Taibak]

Sorry, but I find the reference by Homer to be even more curious than the others, and I'm surprised that neither of you realize this:
The Greeks attained much knowledge from the Babylonians, they called them "Chaldeans," and when we find in their astronomical texts the planet Mars identified with the "god of war," Nergal, one might realize that not only are the Greek myths of mesopotamian origin, but that the earlier civ identified the "war god" with a planet.

So is it really "literary flare" or "waxing poetic"?
Perhaps... I think.
But it appears to me that there is an astronomical reference to the planet Mars and its two companions in The Illiad. And if the Greeks took from the earlier Chaldeans, how did they know about Phobos and Deimos? :o

Yeah, but that's probably just a case of fusing two traditions together. The Mesopotamians associated the planet with their war god, and the Greeks inherited this idea. The Greeks believed that the gods Phobos and Deimos accompanied their war god. Therefore, the Greeks believed that if the planet was associated with all the aspects of the war god, then it must also be accompanied by Phobos and Deimos.

Besides, if the Greeks *did* know about the moons of Mars, why do they only show up in a work of literature and not in any astronomical texts?

[A.DIM]

Keep in mind that for a while there:

Earth had one moon.
Mars had ? moons.
Jupiter had four moons.

It's no great surprise to decide Mars should have two moons, particularly in an era when people were writing treatises on why there were exactly six planets and no more.

Right you are, but I'm reluctant to consider this as "numerology" bearing out the "truth" - coincidentally.

[A.DIM]

IIRC, there was a theroy in the 17th or 18th century, that said since Venus had no moon, Earth one, Jupiter 4, Saturn at that time 8 known moons, it was believed that Mars should have two. That could explain some of the references to two Mars moons. Homer is just a coincedence. #-o

Again, I have difficulty calling it coincidence when Greek knowledge is firmly grounded in Chaldean knowledge where the Chaldeans definitely identified their "war god" with a planet.

But you bring up something interesting: "Venus had no moon" in the "17th or 18th Century."

1672 - Cassini views the Venusian moon.
1686 - Cassini sees it again, and wrote detailed notes.
1740 - James Short, an English astronomer viewed it for an hour.
1759 - Andreas Mayer, a German astronomer, watces it for half an hour.
1761 - Jacques Montaigne, a "venusian moon skeptic" sees it himself on 4 different nights in March.
1761 - Joseph-Louis Lagrange reported seeing it on 3 seccessive nights in February.
1761 - Roedkioer in Copenhagen sees it in June, July & August - 8 different times.
1768 - Christian Horrebow sees it in January.

It was "real" enough for Frederick the Great, King of Prussia, to propose naming it "D'Alembert" in honor of the French savant.

But then... it disappeared for over a century!

1886 - Houzeau, an astronomer, sees it and calls it "Neith" in honor of an Egyptian goddess.

1892 - American astronomer Edward Emerson Barnard sees a 7th magnitude object near Venus.

And then... it's been gone since. No Venusian moon.
What were they seeing?
And if there were all these reports of the Venusian moon in those times, why would they even think "Earth has 1, Mars 2, Jupiter 4 and so on?"
It nearly makes no sense.

[A.DIM]

Yeah, but that's probably just a case of fusing two traditions together. The Mesopotamians associated the planet with their war god, and the Greeks inherited this idea. The Greeks believed that the gods Phobos and Deimos accompanied their war god. Therefore, the Greeks believed that if the planet was associated with all the aspects of the war god, then it must also be accompanied by Phobos and Deimos.

Seems like a shaky argument to me. In my opinion, it is simpler to say that somehow Nergal, the planet was known to have two "emissaries" (and I believe this is the case in Babylonian "myth") and this info was transmitted to the Greeks.

Besides, if the Greeks *did* know about the moons of Mars, why do they only show up in a work of literature and not in any astronomical texts?

Good question. But how do we know they didn't? I mean, numerous libraries were burned and their contents destroyed. And keep in mind that the Greeks may have merely adopted the "myths" without really knowing their "astronomical" importance. Likewise, how do we know there aren't more cuneiform astronomical texts buried out there in the sands of Iraq / Iran? We've barely scratched the surface interpreting the thousands of cuneiform tablets that have been discovered, so who's to say they don't exist?

[R.A.F.]

Besides, if the Greeks *did* know about the moons of Mars, why do they only show up in a work of literature and not in any astronomical texts?

But how do we know they didn't? I mean, numerous libraries were burned and their contents destroyed...Likewise, how do we know there aren't more cuneiform astronomical texts buried out there in the sands of Iraq / Iran?


If I'm reading this correctly...

Maybe the Greeks did write about the 2 satellites of Mars in Astronomical texts.

Maybe these "texts" were lost when the librarys containing them were burned and destroyed.

Maybe these "texts" are undiscovered, and buried "somewhere" in the desert.

Do you see where I'm "going" with this. You've employed a lot of "maybe's", to try to disprove the fact that no Greek Astronomical texts describe Mars as having 2 satellites.

I prefer my "maybe's" right where they belong...speculative fiction.

[Taibak]

Yeah, but that's probably just a case of fusing two traditions together. The Mesopotamians associated the planet with their war god, and the Greeks inherited this idea. The Greeks believed that the gods Phobos and Deimos accompanied their war god. Therefore, the Greeks believed that if the planet was associated with all the aspects of the war god, then it must also be accompanied by Phobos and Deimos.

Seems like a shaky argument to me. In my opinion, it is simpler to say that somehow Nergal, the planet was known to have two "emissaries" (and I believe this is the case in Babylonian "myth") and this info was transmitted to the Greeks.

Because there's no evidence that the Chaldeans thought Nergal was accompanied by two emissaries.

Because in Greek mythology Ares (Mars) is accompanied by the gods Phobos and Deimos *outside* of astronomical contexts.

Because it's a more solid argument than one based on things that aren't known to exist.

[quote]Besides, if the Greeks *did* know about the moons of Mars, why do they only show up in a work of literature and not in any astronomical texts?

Good question. But how do we know they didn't? I mean, numerous libraries were burned and their contents destroyed. And keep in mind that the Greeks may have merely adopted the "myths" without really knowing their "astronomical" importance. Likewise, how do we know there aren't more cuneiform astronomical texts buried out there in the sands of Iraq / Iran? We've barely scratched the surface interpreting the thousands of cuneiform tablets that have been discovered, so who's to say they don't exist?

The simple answer is that we don't. However, you can't base an historical argument on things that you can't prove exist. I mean, by the same logic you could argue that President Bush keeps a herd of wildebeest in the Lincoln Bedroom because you've never seen them. That's bad history because even though the documentary record is incomplete, the non-existence of evidence *can't* be taken as an invitation to assume the evidence ever existed. It's equally likely that it didn't.

Anyway, can you show me evidence that the Chaldeans knew about Mars's moons? Can you show me evidence that the Greeks even knew about the Chaldean pantheon? How much astronomy did the Greeks get from the Chaldeans? Where you've gone from arguing that the Greeks knew about Mars's moons to arguing that the Chaldeans must have known about Mars's moons because the Greeks got their mythology from them, you have to answer all three questions.

The bottom line is that although a lot of ancient knowledge has been lost, we still have a lot of it. We have Ptolemy's astronomy book - and it makes no mention of any planet having satellites apart from the Earth and that was the definitive astronomy text for over a thousand years. We have, I believe, the complete works of Aristotle and he makes no mention of Mars having moons. Admittedly these were both written a lot later than the Iliad, but from what we've seen with Greek scientific texts, there should be some debate as to the existence or non-existence of the Martian moons OR they should have been included in the major astronomy texts - espescially Ptolemy. A mention in a work of fiction is not sufficient proof.


Along the same lines, the more I think about the other references, the more skeptical I become. The Laputan scientists in Swift mention the moons, *but* Swift also intended the Laputan scientists to be parodies. After all, these were the people trying to figure out what the color of paint sounded like. Moreover, a *lot* of Gulliver's Travels is obviously the product of Swift's fertile imagination. Arguing for the existence of Phobos and Deimos based on a reference there is like arguing for the existence of Mr. Ed based on the talking horses in the last part of the book.

The Voltaire quote also does not prove the existence of the moons. After all, he *explicitly* states that astronomers hadn't observed them yet.

That just leaves us with the Cyrano and the Kepler. Of those, Kepler's is the more reliable, *but* far, far from conclusive. Why would he only mention the moons when trying to solve an anagram but not in any of his astronomy books? Anagrams tend to have many, many solutions and it's not at all surprising that one possible solution to a long anagram contained the name of a planet. With Cyrano - who was himself fictional, no? - I find it suspiscious that references to Mars having two moons have shown up so often elsewhere in literature (although, again, *not* in any science books). We may be looking at a bunch of authors sharing a literary tradition here, based on the ancient Greek belief that Mars was accompanied by two minor dieties. Show me a quote from something other than a word game or a work of fiction - preferably a pre-1830 astronomy or physics book - and you'll stand a much better chance of convincing me.

[dummy]

"Salve umbistineum geminatum Martia proles," or "Greetings to you, the twin offspring of Mars."

The anagram was actually explaining Galileo's discovery of Saturns rings in 1610. (http://www.nap.edu/openbook/030908850X/html/65-70.htm)

For example, as King also describes, when Galileo wanted to communicate to Kepler that he had discovered the rings around Saturn,
he did so in an anagram that, unscrambled, read, “Observo Altissimum Planetam Tergeminim”

(I have observed the most distant of planets to have a triple form).
Unfortunately, Kepler read the anagram as saying “Salve Umbistineum Geminatum Martia Proles”

(Hail twin companionship, children of Mars), which puts quite a different spin on this scientific
communication.



The fact that he unscrambled it wrong and it points to two mars moons was a coincidence. If this misinterpretation was known to the public, perhaps this sparked off theories/rumours about martian moons, and these people who wrote the literature simply used best guesses by looking at our moon, jupiters known moons, etc. I really can't do much more than speculate though.

[R.A.F.]

...the non-existence of evidence *can't* be taken as an invitation to assume the evidence ever existed.

Thanks, Taiback. In my "round about" way, that's what I was trying to say in my post. :)

[A.DIM]

Thanks for the input guys.

But I think I misled you. The title of this post was about references in Literature, meaning mythology and fiction, aside from the Kepler "coincidence," of course. I put a ? in the title with the intent of speculation on them being actual astronomical references. I'm not trying to "prove" anything.
Hesiod also wrote about phobos and deimos as "steeds pulling the chariot of Mars across the cosmos." Sounds astronomical to me.

But it is clear that the Greeks were aware of the Babylonian pantheon. I'm nearly surprised someone wouldn't know this. A good example would be the "olympian twelve" that each had; that is, until Marduk became "supreme among the gods of heaven and earth" - with this the Babylonians took the first major step in the direction of monotheism. But I digress...
There is evidence that the Babylonians in fact had a heliocentric planetary theory; Time and Tide (http://www.spirasolaris.ca/sbb2c.html) makes it rather clear. :o :D
So all this is is speculation that the Chaldeans / Babylonians might've had such an advanced understanding of the heavens, and with the Greek myths being derivative from them, could the knowledge that Mars has two moons have been lost and transmitted only through "myth" and other Lit.
Personally, I find it fascinating.

[informant]

But I think I misled you. The title of this post was about references in Literature, meaning mythology and fiction, aside from the Kepler "coincidence," of course. I put a ? in the title with the intent of speculation on them being actual astronomical references.
One way of assessing whether those references can be regarded as astronomical is by examining other kinds of texts written by the same civilizations - namely, astronomical texts. As others have written, serious astronomical texts of the same time contradict the idea that the authors you mention could have known that Mars had two moons.

Hesiod also wrote about phobos and deimos as "steeds pulling the chariot of Mars across the cosmos." Sounds astronomical to me.
Sounds pretty mythological to me - like Helios riding the Sun chariot across the sky.

There is evidence that the Babylonians in fact had a heliocentric planetary theory; Time and Tide (http://www.spirasolaris.ca/sbb2c.html) makes it rather clear. :o :D
So all this is is speculation that the Chaldeans / Babylonians might've had such an advanced understanding of the heavens [...]
A.DIM, the Babylonians believed the Earth was flat...

P.S. Ah, I see that the Babylonian period you're talking about is actually after Aristarchus. But that would correspond to Greek (Hellenistic) astronomy!

[Eroica]

Hesiod also wrote about phobos and deimos as "steeds pulling the chariot of Mars across the cosmos." Sounds astronomical to me.
What's your source for this? As far am I know, Phobos and Deimos were sons of Ares in Hesiod's Theogony and Shield of Heracles.

[TriangleMan]

But it appears to me that there is an astronomical reference to the planet Mars and its two companions in The Illiad. And if the Greeks took from the earlier Chaldeans, how did they know about Phobos and Deimos? :o

hypothesis: Greeks had access to advanced astronomical knowledge and new about moons around Mars.
evidence: Homer's Iliad
predictions from hypothesis:
a) other gods in the Iliad should also have entourages equal to the number of moons around them (Jupiter should have 4 or more)
b) evidence of knowledge of Saturn's rings
c) evidence that Greeks knew of existance of Uranus & Neptune
d) evidence of knowledge that Venus has phases

Any evidence of 'a' through 'd' A.Dim?

[A.DIM]

One way of assessing whether those references can be regarded as astronomical is by examining other kinds of texts written by the same civilizations - namely, astronomical texts. As others have written, serious astronomical texts of the same time contradict the idea that the authors you mention could have known that Mars had two moons.

It seems you missed my last statement:
"So all this is is speculation..
...could the knowledge that Mars has two moons have been lost and transmitted only through "myth" and other Lit?"

...which is why there aren't the astronomical texts, that we know of, to corroborate the "myths" and such.

Sounds pretty mythological to me - like Helios riding the Sun chariot across the sky.

Yeah.
Do you remember our discussion about the massive "landing platform" at Baalbek, and how the Romans likely built Heliopolis upon it? From where Helios ascended to and descended from the heavens while also traversing the skies in his "fiery chariot?" Now that sounds "mythological!" :wink:

A.DIM, the Babylonians believed the Earth was flat...

Yes, I know, that's what they taught us, huh?

P.S. Ah, I see that the Babylonian period you're talking about is actually after Aristarchus. But that would correspond to Greek (Hellenistic) astronomy!

Right. It states that in the first sentence.

"Although the numerical methods and parameters found in the Babylonian Astronomical Procedure texts and Ephemerides of the Seleucid Era [310 B.C. - 75 A.D.] have been described in some detail, notably by Neugebauer (1955),1 (1975), 2 Van der Waerden (1974) 3 and others, it is far from certain whether the extant material represents the state of Babylonian astronomy per se, or merely scattered remnants of a larger corpus of knowledge. Moreover, what has been reclaimed can hardly be considered sequential or self-explanatory, while base-60 notation, unusual terminology, little-known phenomena and proclamations concerning the lack of a fictive model for Babylonian astronomy all prevent easy assimilation of the details. Then again, the information that has come down to us is itself scattered and fragmentary, ranging from earlier "Omens" through the detailed astronomical cuneiform texts of the Seleucid Era."

So considering that the much earlier "omens" are the "myths" we're talking about and that the base 60 system was invented by the much earlier Sumerians, it seems like reasonable speculation that these "myths" might well be astronomical references.

[A.DIM]

Hesiod also wrote about phobos and deimos as "steeds pulling the chariot of Mars across the cosmos." Sounds astronomical to me.
What's your source for this? As far am I know, Phobos and Deimos were sons of Ares in Hesiod's Theogony and Shield of Heracles.

Uh... Hesiod's Shield of Herakles.
It is rather short but I believe the reference to Ares (aka Mars) and his "two steeds" occurs 10 or more times.

[Amadeus]

Is it not the case that sometimes "myth" can sometimes reflect a half forgotten fact? This is not to say that all myths relflect facts though.

[informant]

We should probably focus on the moons of Mars, or we'll soon get lost. A.DIM, without any further evidence that the Greeks or anyone else before them had a way of knowing that Mars had two moons, I think that passage in the Illiad which you mentioned must be dismissed as a coincidence.

BTW, excellent contribution, Triangle Man. That's how we all should be thinking.

[informant]

Hesiod also wrote about phobos and deimos as "steeds pulling the chariot of Mars across the cosmos." Sounds astronomical to me.
What's your source for this? As far am I know, Phobos and Deimos were sons of Ares in Hesiod's Theogony and Shield of Heracles.

Uh... Hesiod's Shield of Herakles.
It is rather short but I believe the reference to Ares (aka Mars) and his "two steeds" occurs 10 or more times.
Can we see the exact quotes (a few of them)? And the ones in the Illiad?

[Taibak]

A.DIM: While myths can be based in fact (Trojan War), they don't have to be. Phobos and Deimos pulling the chariots of Ares seems like a perfectly good allegory for fear and terror preceding battle, does it not? Why does that have to refer to two small rocks orbiting a planet?

Anyway, I have to agree with TriangleMan here. If we see this with Mars, why don't we see it with Jupiter? Why are Ganymede, Io, and Europa only mentioned briefly there when you would expect them to be continuously referred to as attendant upon Jupiter. Io and Europa only have brief encounters with Jupiter in mythology - not what you'd expect if the myths were based on Greek and Mesopotamian astronomy that was as good as you claim. I also have to agree with Informant - pre-Hellenistic astronomy in the Middle East seems to lack the key observations you'd expect from people who have telescope technology, most notably Saturn's rings. Such a lack of evidence limits this ancient knowledge of Phobos and Deimos to mere speculation. It's not even useful speculation since all of the evidence for it has other perfectly reasonable explanation.

[ToSeek]

Is it not the case that sometimes "myth" can sometimes reflect a half forgotten fact? This is not to say that all myths relflect facts though.

They say that a lot on Star Trek (TOS) - it must be true!

[R.A.F.]

Phobos and Deimos pulling the chariots of Ares seems like a perfectly good allegory for fear and terror preceding battle, does it not?

Of course...but to make "the idea" work, allegory has to be thrown "out the window". :)

Why does that have to refer to two small rocks orbiting a planet?

If I wanted to get real "nit picky" about this, (and I do), Phobos and Deimos are orbiting Mars. They aren't pulling it anywhere!

Anyway, I have to agree with TriangleMan here.

I also agree.

If we see this with Mars, why don't we see it with Jupiter? Why are Ganymede, Io, and Europa only mentioned briefly there when you would expect them to be continuously referred to as attendant upon Jupiter. Io and Europa only have brief encounters with Jupiter in mythology - not what you'd expect if the myths were based on Greek and Mesopotamian astronomy that was as good as you claim.

I believe that I (and TriangleMan, too :)) know what A.DIM's answer will be. (We've had similiar discussions before.) But I won't put words in his mouth. I do know that he does have an answer.

[Jpax2003]

Do we know how long the asteroids orbiting mars have been in their current orbits? In other words, when were they captured? As for Neith, have we checked for any co-orbital asteroids, or Near Venus Asteroids?

I think that aliens took Homer to the future where he visited a convenience store and bought a Mars bar and a package of M&Ms. If you look at a half-eaten Mars bar head-on with two M&Ms around it, you would get the image of Mars the planet. Of course, while Homer was on our time he saw a documentary on Schliemann and so invented the Illiad. Then the aliens took him back and he also wrote an allegory of his own trip called the Odyssey, based on Arthur C. Clarke's work.

[TriangleMan]

Anyway, I have to agree with TriangleMan here. If we see this with Mars, why don't we see it with Jupiter? Why are Ganymede, Io, and Europa only mentioned briefly there when you would expect them to be continuously referred to as attendant upon Jupiter. Io and Europa only have brief encounters with Jupiter in mythology - not what you'd expect if the myths were based on Greek and Mesopotamian astronomy that was as good as you claim.

Actually Taibak the names of the moons were our own inventions so even if the Greeks knew of them they may have named them something else. Nymphs like Io and Europa would not necessarily have to be with Jupiter in the book, any attendants would do.

I do not have a copy of the Iliad so I couldn't check for myself, so how many attendees does Jupiter have in the book? What about Saturn? Is Eros with Venus? What about the horses pulling Apollo's chariot? I suspect the numbers will not relate to the corresponding planets and if so we cannot conclude that Homer 'knew' anything about Mars' moons.

[Taibak]

Anyway, I have to agree with TriangleMan here. If we see this with Mars, why don't we see it with Jupiter? Why are Ganymede, Io, and Europa only mentioned briefly there when you would expect them to be continuously referred to as attendant upon Jupiter. Io and Europa only have brief encounters with Jupiter in mythology - not what you'd expect if the myths were based on Greek and Mesopotamian astronomy that was as good as you claim.

Actually Taibak the names of the moons were our own inventions so even if the Greeks knew of them they may have named them something else. Nymphs like Io and Europa would not necessarily have to be with Jupiter in the book, any attendants would do.

I do not have a copy of the Iliad so I couldn't check for myself, so how many attendees does Jupiter have in the book? What about Saturn? Is Eros with Venus? What about the horses pulling Apollo's chariot? I suspect the numbers will not relate to the corresponding planets and if so we cannot conclude that Homer 'knew' anything about Mars' moons.

True, but generally the moons are named after mythological figures and they need not be in the Iliad if we're talking about Greek mythology as a whole being heavily influenced by Mesopotamian astronomy. As A.Dim and Eroica mentioned, the Phobos and Deimos appears in other works as wel, including Hesiod's Shield of Herakles.

I agree with your essential point though, that if it's true for Mars it should be true for Jupiter. There should be parallel legends about the moons of Jupiter and Saturn. However, as far as I know, Jupiter only had two mythological attendents (Ganymede and Hebe) while Saturn didn't have any!

[TriangleMan]

IIRC, there was a theroy in the 17th or 18th century, that said since Venus had no moon, Earth one, Jupiter 4, Saturn at that time 8 known moons, it was believed that Mars should have two. That could explain some of the references to two Mars moons. Homer is just a coincedence. #-o

I found a reference from 1846 about a Christian chaneller named Ellen White who when describing the planets mentioned a planet with four moons and another with eight. The audience knew she was talking about Jupiter and Saturn so it appears that the number of moons was common knowledge at that time (although that's still later than the 18th century). It is not inconceivable that people would have theorized that Mars would have two moons to fit the mathematical pattern.

For the record, Ms. White said God revealed to her that Uranus had six moons. :^o

[informant]

I do not have a copy of the Iliad so I couldn't check for myself, so how many attendees does Jupiter have in the book? [...]
Here you go: Homer's Iliad (http://www.uoregon.edu/~joelja/iliad.html).

[Byrd]

And if the Greeks took from the earlier Chaldeans, how did they know about Phobos and Deimos? :o
Answer: The Chaldeans didn't know about Demios and Phobos. They're not mentioned in the cosmology.

[Xbalanque]

Swift provides a little more information about the "two lesser stars, or satellites, which revolve around Mars..."


... whereof the innermost is distant from the centre of the primary planet exactly three of its diameters, and the outermost five; the former revolves in the space of ten hours, and the latter in twenty-one and an half; so that the squares of their periodical times are very near in the same proportion with the cubes of their distance from the centre of Mars..."


For those who know math, was Swift relying on ancient knowledge, or just making it up as he went along?

[ToSeek]

Swift provides a little more information about the "two lesser stars, or satellites, which revolve around Mars..."


... whereof the innermost is distant from the centre of the primary planet exactly three of its diameters, and the outermost five; the former revolves in the space of ten hours, and the latter in twenty-one and an half; so that the squares of their periodical times are very near in the same proportion with the cubes of their distance from the centre of Mars..."


For those who know math, was Swift relying on ancient knowledge, or just making it up as he went along?

Just sounds as if he knew about Kepler's Third Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler's_laws_of_planetary_motion#Kepler's_Third_L aw_(Harmonic_Law)), for which that is a slightly inaccurate rephrasing.

[TriangleMan]

Here you go: Homer's Iliad (http://www.uoregon.edu/~joelja/iliad.html).
Thanks informant. I had just assumed no one would actually type the whole thing out and put it online so I didn't bother looking for it. Obviously I underestimated what people will put online. #-o

[daver]

Swift provides a little more information about the "two lesser stars, or satellites, which revolve around Mars..."


... whereof the innermost is distant from the centre of the primary planet exactly three of its diameters, and the outermost five; the former revolves in the space of ten hours, and the latter in twenty-one and an half; so that the squares of their periodical times are very near in the same proportion with the cubes of their distance from the centre of Mars..."


For those who know math, was Swift relying on ancient knowledge, or just making it up as he went along?

OK, the actual figures. Phobos orbits at a distance of 9000 km or 2.65 diameters in 7.2 hours, Deimos at a distance of 23000 km or 6.8 diameters in 29.4 hours.

So, he's close to the distance for Phobos, but not all that close. His distance for Deimos is pretty far off (although it's the right order of magnitude). His orbital times are wrong, and give the wrong mass for Mars. His use of Kepler's third law is correct (Keppler's third law had been published about a century before).

If it's ancient knowledge, the ancient knowledge either wasn't very good in the first place or got mangled somewhere along the way. Swift could have fudged the figures to make Keppler's laws come out ok.

This fails the sniff test pretty badly--the ancient knowledge would have had to be common enough that Swift didn't feel the need to publish it, yet uncommon enough that he could claim the two moons were unknown to terrestrial astronomers. None of the figures match reality all that well; you'd expect at least one of them to be right. I'd say claiming this as evidence of advanced ancient optics (or remote viewing or whatever) is pretty unconvincing.

The Mars/moon distances are awfully small if you figured he used the earth/moon system as a guide, but not that far off if you figured he used Jupiter/Io (still small, though).

[milli360]

I think that aliens took Homer to the future where he visited a convenience store and bought a Mars bar and a package of M&Ms.
I loved that episode.

[A.DIM]

hypothesis: Greeks had access to advanced astronomical knowledge and new about moons around Mars.
evidence: Homer's Iliad
predictions from hypothesis:
a) other gods in the Iliad should also have entourages equal to the number of moons around them (Jupiter should have 4 or more)
b) evidence of knowledge of Saturn's rings
c) evidence that Greeks knew of existance of Uranus & Neptune
d) evidence of knowledge that Venus has phases

Any evidence of 'a' through 'd' A.Dim?

Excellent questions, TriangleMan. However, your hypothesis is not entirely accurate. While I stated the Greeks adopted much of the Chaldean knowledge, I don't recall stating they "knew about the moons around Mars;" instead, I suggested that perhaps such knowledge was lost and hence it is only in "myth" where we find the references.

But again, we're dealing with Literature and Mythology here, and as you well know, neither of these is acceptable as "evidence."
And as I said, I was certainly not trying to "prove" anything. You guys shouldn't always take me so seriously. :)

What I was really hoping is that perhaps someone else well versed in classical lit & mythology might also know of such curious references.




Sorry all, been travelin' all week and have had very little time to join you.

[A.DIM]

If I wanted to get real "nit picky" about this, (and I do), Phobos and Deimos are orbiting Mars. They aren't pulling it anywhere!

Interesting you should put it this way. I believe you'll find in Hesiod descriptions of this very thing; one of Ares' sons racing around in circles around the chariot. But of course I realize that all this is mere conjecture.

If we see this with Mars, why don't we see it with Jupiter? Why are Ganymede, Io, and Europa only mentioned briefly there when you would expect them to be continuously referred to as attendant upon Jupiter. Io and Europa only have brief encounters with Jupiter in mythology - not what you'd expect if the myths were based on Greek and Mesopotamian astronomy that was as good as you claim.
I believe that I (and TriangleMan, too :)) know what A.DIM's answer will be. (We've had similiar discussions before.) But I won't put words in his mouth. I do know that he does have an answer.

I'm not sure what you're saying here R.A.F.
But the above issue with Jupiter is valid. Of course, Jupiter is known to have countless "sons & daughters," so why are only a few of them named?

"I don't know, we can only speculate." - Is this the answer you "knew" I would give, R.A.F.?

[R.A.F.]

OK, I'll admit it...that was not the answer I was expecting from A.DIM.

You guys shouldn't always take me so seriously.

Well, it sure sounded like you were asking a serious question here...

So, is it mere coincidence that we find these referrences to Phobos & Deimos before they were discovered? Or is it possible that the 2 Martian moons were known before they were discovered?

So I guess that you've answered you own question...coincidence. So this thread was more about mythology and less about Mars and Astronomy.

Added...just read your latest post, A.DIM, and your right...I didn't know your answer...I stand corrected.

[TriangleMan]

Sorry all, been travelin' all week and have had very little time to join you.
Ah, that explains it. I was wondering why you weren't posting in resenmut's PX threads.

Actually, I don't usually debate many things with you A.Dim so I wouldn't say how 'serious' you were. I was just pointing out how from a hypothesis of "ancient knowledge of Phobos & Deimos" one could make predictions that would validate or refute the hypothesis.