The cable companies in Canada tried something that they called Negative Billing a few years back. They expanded everyone's cable access, giving them premium channels and everything, and set down an unpublicised policy of "If you don't want them, you have to cancel them." They did this in conjunction with a free preview month, so most people were none the wiser when the end of the month came and they were still getting the premium channels. They were, however, seeing red when their next cable bill came in.

It's certainly not the same, but I can't help but associate "free trial/opt out" times like that with the taint of negative billing.

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"The plan does not involve mayonaise."
"... I knew there was a catch."

You can't take the sky from me.

jamesd_wallace2,
IMO - You are pushing this just a little too hard to be just an enthusiastic user. Except for one post about books by H.A. Rey, every post you have made, since you joined have been "rah, rah SLOOH". I suggest that you might back off a little.

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Any day you wake up on "the right side of the dirt" is a good day.

T. Anderson

Did you get to look at all of the features? I am interested to know how much time you spent on the system. If you have questions about what you saw please ask.

As I stated before. I am not an employee, or have any finacial interest in SLOOH. (Other than to see the buisness continue because I am a member.) I know how to cancel my subscription because I read the user aggreement that said how to cancel. I know that there have been a few people who have canceled their subscription because I have been told (by the users) that they will not be online with SLOOH anymore. They normally tell me it isn't because of the service but for other reasons. Sloohers are always reluctant to see people go, but everyone has their reasons/priorities.


Keep Looking Up.

jamesd_wallace2

Thank you for your opinion. I am a very enthusiastic user. Both of BABB and of SLOOH. I spend alot of my time on the internet using SLOOH in its many forms. I don't have time to respond to most of the areas of this board because of time. I am intersted in Astronomy education so I did take time to support a very favorite books H.A. Rey's "Stars" and "Constellations". I recommend them to SLOOH users all the time. Please don't mistake my inability to post in every area of interest as a inability to read other postings.


Keep Looking Up.

jamesd_wallace2

A rose by any other name....

I have thought to put my two cents on this type of business policy. Being that I work with customers everyday in the job I do, I understand that having such a period is actually 'convenient' for a customer. Why? It provides a time where a customer can look over the product, without fear of paying anything, and if it isn't what they wish to pay, they can back out. The fact that some people find it an inconvenience might suggest laziness or the fact that they have no desire in whatever the product is. I am not saying nayone on this board is lazy. I am suggesting from a personal point of view from what I have seen.
Of course, if there wasn't this trial period, then you would have to pay immediately out of your pocket and then the customers would whine about that also because that money is lost, so it's really a no-win situation in trying to please those that are unable to be pleased. It is good business policy, however, to offer such a period. It provides rapport and understanding to the customer as a whole.
My opinion is this: If you are interested without feeling you are getting second hand information and wish to find out what it is like for true experience, sign up. If you are not interested, however, then don't. Simple as that. The same holds true though in terms of voting - If you don't vote, you have no voice and therefore, no reason to apply any of your opinions if something doesn't go your way. My suggestion is an informative comment.

Clear Skies,

Diane

I think what K was saying is that you sound like a shill, and it can be annoying.

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"The plan does not involve mayonaise."
"... I knew there was a catch."

You can't take the sky from me.

Kristophe, that is a borderline ad hominem. Back off. If something annoys you, take it to PM or ignore it.

What is it about these SLOOH threads that creates such hostility?

I didn't intend any hostility of malice. I appologize to anyone who saw it that way. But jamesd_wallace2's strong defensive stance to Grape's decision not to recommend Slooh to people based on his experience with the programme does seem to border on spam at times.

I didn't think shill was such a strong word, nor was I calling anyone such a name. I was simply pointing out an interpretation of jamesd_wallace2's stance, and advising that he might make more headroom if he were to tone it down a notch.

I'm sorry if you felt it to be anything less than a friendly remark, James.

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"The plan does not involve mayonaise."
"... I knew there was a catch."

You can't take the sky from me.

BABB, I did not come to the board to annoy anyone. I came here to answer questions about what I have found to be a great tool for astronomy. I believe that it is a great tool and encourage people to discuss or try it.

I don't want to cause hostility. I am trying to answer questions about the scopes. I was reading a great thread, My New Observatory, where some of the same people that have made comments about SLOOH have been involved. What makes SLOOH any different than getting excited about Andromeda321's new work with that observatory? The chance to schedule missions that everyone can watch all at the same time anywhere in the world; sounds like a great project for BABB members. A Global Star Party is the way Sloohers look at it.

Remember the Astronomy.com missions? Maybe BABB can get something like that going too?

Keep Looking Up.

jamesd_wallace2

To tell you the truth, I had to look it up.

I don't want to spam the site, I am one of only two SLOOH users on BABB (there are two employees that have used the board in the past). If there were more people that were here from SLOOH then I expect the interaction could be spread out amoung the users. I know that Diane is currently using SLOOH and I am missing missions to be able to respond to the board.

Please, feel free to suggest missions that I might be able to run from the scopes. I would love to have a challenge for my solo missions. I am currently chasing 17-20 Mag Galaxies from the LEDA catalogue. If anyone has a good object I will try it. (I do not have permission to post the resulting image.) But I will let you know how it goes.

Keep Looking Up.

jamesd_wallace2

I don't think you are, necessarily. I am commenting on the fact that these SLOOH threads seem to degenerate into bad feelings, and I'm not exactly sure why.

Some people are violently opposed to communism, others to fax machines. It's the things that we don't understand that confound us the most. Personally, I have a strong detest for MSN Messenger (but I use it anyway), and AOL. I'm an ICQ faithful, and I likes me the unadulterated intraweb.

Slooh's not hurting anyone, but it's certainly not for everyone. Personally, I've an observatory at my fingertips to play with, and they pay me to do it. But I see the appeal of it. I'm not sure what objections anyone could come up with it beyond that. Grapes didn't like the interface, or something, and the billing system isn't convenient for moochers. Those are the most directly negative things I've heard about it.

Like I said earlier, I don't really think there's anything to discuss. Grab your scopes, turn on your monitors, or do whatever you like to do, and enjoy it.

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"The plan does not involve mayonaise."
"... I knew there was a catch."

You can't take the sky from me.

what douse slooth do exactly

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If this writing is blue you're going too fast!

mickal555,

At the core SLOOH is an observatory in the Canary Islands. Though a web interface you can see celestial objects as the scopes go through a set of programmed missions. Or you can use the "solo" scopes to program your own missions and view those missions.

SLOOH also has chat rooms, audio programs, Live broadcasts, and a users group. Some of the topics covered in the live broadcasts have covered: Equipment (Phil Harrington author of "STARWARE"), Exoplanet Studies and NASA programs (Micheal Narlock of the Cranbrook Institute and Scott Foerster of NASA's Jet Propulsion Labratroy), Current Astronomy trends (Bob Berman author of "Strange Universe" and columnist for Astronomy Magazine). You can participate in the Live broadcasts through the chat room and ask questions of the presenters.

It is all based around bringing astronomy to the masses. For the price of a magazine you can use professional quality instruments and receive great information about most topics astronomical. I hope you check them out and see what you can do with SLOOH.


Keep Looking Up.

jamesd_wallace2

I thought I could pass on an evaluation of SLOOH from another member as well. This is the type of feelings that are common among SLOOH members to other SLOOH members:

*quoted with permission.

Everyone learns from everyone else in SLOOH.


Keep Looking Up.

jamesd_wallace2

Well, Phil, I think that what's going on is that we have two people from another Internet place telling us, "Come visit our place!"

Repeatedly.

So okay, fine. We heard them. We know they're there. We can go visit "their place" if we want. And yet they continue to importune us, "Come visit our place!"

Some of us find that annoying.

I don't go over to JREF or the SDMB and beg people and beg people and BEG people to come visit the BABB or ApolloHoax.

I probably won't bother with Slooh. Three reasons really:

1) I like to support the locals - and Bradford University 4 miles down the road have their own robotic observatory on Mount Teide, with a web front-end.

2) Paying to see the (free) heavens rankles with my lefty instincts :wink:

3) I agree with Jigsaw, in that there's somthing about seeing nebulae, stars and planets out there 'live' with your own gear that a web monitor can't capture.

Not a big deal. No need for any evangelism in my direction.

Cheers, Rob.

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"We need rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

i dont really see the big deal about htis either... i can see it being handy for people without telescopes, or live in cities with too much light to see any stars, plus damn cold weather!

it would be something i would be interested in atleast checking out, but probably wouldnt subscribe... but i will not give cc info over internet for a so called free trial

Just as devil's advocate, should Meade start giving away telescopes then? :-?

Well that would be cool... :P

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If this writing is blue you're going too fast!

I'd love them to, but I realise it's unlikely . I bought my telescope as well, it wasn't given away by any local astronomer's co-operative. My point was, having paid the manufacturer once, I now have a telescope. I don't have to pay them again after a year.

I've no problem with anyone else choosing to do so. Because I don't, it doesn't make me a communist.

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"We need rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

yeah thats right My scope was given to me(sirus optics)..... so yeah

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If this writing is blue you're going too fast!

The point is, however, that you paid money to see the skies. If you had decided to buy a more expensive telescope, and made monthly payments, how is that different?

My point is that it's not wrong or even odd to charge for this service. Most people can go out and observe the skies in their backyard, but if you want to do more, it's going to cost. Binoculars, starcharts, telescopes, whatever: it takes money. So objecting about people charging money for a service such as this isn't logical.

__________________
Phil Plait
The Bad Astronomer
http://www.badastronomy.com
badastro@badastronomy.com

I would gladly pay $100 a YEAR to use $20,000 worth of equipment. In 10 years I will still be paying $100 but by then the company has done all the maintenance, all the upgrades and by then SLOOH will have observatories in several locations equaling possibly $100,000 worth of equipment and I have only paid $1,000. I will have been able to do things that I could never have done even if I had $100,000 myself.

All of this doesn't include the added features of SLOOH. What type of telescope can you buy that will talk to you 5 nights a week about current events. Or can you ask questions from current experts and get a response though the scope. Or even ask questions about Astrophysics and get answers. That sounds like a pretty expensive scope that doesn't exists. Except it does exist, it's called SLOOH.

I can do the math and that sounds like an excellent deal to me.

Again, let me point out, you can use SLOOH for free if you subscribe or buy a copy of Astronomy Magazine. One mission a night. (Might not want to try tonight 2005Jan31 because the weather looks bad for Mt Teide.)



Keep Looking Up.


jamesd_wallace2

Oww, all right. I concede my point 2 wasn't thought out. It's just a gut reaction of mine, and as Carl Sagan once said, not always good to think with your gut. It was meant to be a light-hearted aside and not any serious political or idealogical point.

For an ordinary user, jamesd_wallace2, you seem to know an awful lot about Slooh's balance sheet, it's user base and it's future business plans!

[edit: what does slooh actually stand for anyway? ]

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"We need rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

Yorkshireman, I have taken the time to learn as much as I can about SLOOH. I help people in the chat rooms, so I have made it a point to research as much information about SLOOH as I can. I like to provide accurate information.

As for balance sheet, I am a paying subscriber too. I know how much I paid and what type of scopes they use. It is easy math to come up with some basic figures for what SLOOH is doing. I don't claim to know the overall operating costs of SLOOH.

Users have gotten to know me in the chat rooms and on the users group. The fact that I have gotten to know people doesn't make me any more than a SLOOH subscriber.

The astrophotographer for SLOOH speaks on Sunday night's radio programs and answers questions from users. The future of SLOOH is a constant topic for him. Users want to dream big and want to know how SLOOH is looking to expand. I've asked questions that there too.

The word SLOOH is a trademark. It is a play on the word slew. In our users group there have been many attempts to make it into an acronym, but it is just a trade mark.


Keep Looking Up.

jamesd_wallace2

Has anyone checked out the site recently?



Keep Looking Up.

jamesd_wallace2

James, please tone it down. Enthusiasm is fine, and I know what it's like to be a member of a "cult". (I own a refractor). But to the disinterested, you sound like someone from Slooh's marketing department. You're probably driving away more people than you're recruiting.

Anyway, I followed your suggestion:
and took a look around. I think that people who like this sort of thing will find that this is the sort of thing they like. But I'm not one of them. As I can't afford astrophotography equipment and don't have very dark skies, a remote observatory which I could control might be appealing. But it looks like I would only get a few minutes a year to do this. I'm not interested in seeing a bunch of pre-selected images - as someone else mentioned, APOD does that for free. However, I think Slooh is going to be very attractive to many people. Anything which gets more people interested in science is a wonderful thing, and I hope it thrives.

A couple of comments about the parts of the site I could see without giving anyone my credit card:

Why no sample images?

Who owns the images? Can users download, print and otherwise make use of what they've paid for without breaching copyright?

And this little gem in the FAQ, with which I STRONGLY disagree:
Well, it's true that cloudy weather will "seriously impair a night of astronomy". But NOTHING replaces seeing the universe with your own eyes. With a 4" scope in my urban back yard, I've seen things you wouldn't believe, including views of the planets as good as almost any photograph I've ever come across. I know Slooh needs to talk up its own services, but they shouldn't discourage people from going out there and looking for themselves.

JohnW,

I'm at a bit of a loss. BABB users ask me to "tone it down" but in the same posting they ask questions about SLOOH. I don't know how to respond except that I will answer the questions to the best of my ability.

First needs to be pointed out, you are not You are watching live astronomy. The missions in the group missions schedule are pre-selected, but the missions are live.

There is a sample image of M51 found at www.slooh.com Select on the discriptions around the "port hole." The Sneek Peek button at the bottom of the home page includes screen shots of the interface.

As for the ownership of images www.slooh.com/tcus.html has all the details, but I will quote the answer to the questions in particular:
As for you last point, I am not sure where you read that a 4" scope in your urban back yard could not see untold mysteries of the universe. The point is getting out and using it. I know many people who enjoy using a 4" scope (I have one). I also know many people who love to use a 14" scope that they pay only $50 a year to use. Those people call themselves Sloohers.


Keep Looking Up.

jamesd_wallace

More information is coming out about SLOOH. You can listen to a great show by David and Wendy Levy. http://www.letstalkstars.com They interviewed SLOOH's Matt BenDaniel on their January 25th Radio program.


Keep Looking Up.

jamesd_wallace2