Apologies if this is in the wrong thread - If that is the case can a moderator move it to the correct location

I realise how poor a reputation ICR has here, however, in my inbox this morning I found another one of their newsletter. (I managed to get onto their mailing list somehow ), and of the programmes listed there was one entitled "Star Gazing". Given Phil's warning that once the creationists have done in the biologists they would go gunning for the astronomers, I wondered if it had already begun.

I down loaded their podcast from here, and apart from the obvious bits where they go evangelical at the end it appeared to me to be an interesting programm about how to do stargazing with out a telescope and advice to look for the constellations.

There was a cute bit where they mentioned that there was a cross constellation in both northern and southern hemispheres, so when were those constellations officially recognised. (You can't be too careful with ICR )

They also said that God arranged the constellations for our enjoyment. Now I do realise these constellations or purely line of sight effects, but are those ideas mutualy exclusive?

But then again, the legends associated with the constelations come from pagan mythologies, so why would God promote them

Any Hue

Can someone else listen to this and see if what they said on the observing front is correct and something you would go along with, i.e how to enjoy the night sky with the unaided eye.

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Only been able to listen to a bit so far, but at least they are acknowledging the existing constellations. Awhile back I saw a book in a Christian bookstore that had developed all new Christian names for the constellations.

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There is a constellation called Crux, which is the Southern Cross. It was named first (I believe) by Magellen when they observed it during their voyage. I imagine that Magellen used it to calm the fears of his crew.

The constellation that is sometimes referred to as the Northern Cross, is officially Cygnus the Swan.

I had a class of YEC's come to the observatory once, and they got pretty agitated when I told them how far away the Andromeda Galaxy is.

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And why would they do that ?

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Presumably because, if the Andromeda galaxy is two million light years away, and we can see the light from it, and the Universe is 6000 years old, then we've got a problem.

Unless

• The speed of light was different at the beginning
• You go with the doctrine of apparent age

YEC's should have no problem with astronomical distances, I don't

Anyhue

getting back to the topic, finding your way around the sky without a scope and how accurate ICR were in their details on how to do it.

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Well, even the ATM'ers don't propose that the speed of light has changed enough that light has traveled 10 billion lightyears (give or take) in 6,000 years. I suspect that the YEC's realized that.

Also, the second position you mentioned was pretty much abandoned in the 19th century. Because it leads to ludicrus suppositions, as is pointed out in the apologist article you linked to. I think the YEC's realized that, too. So, the only thing left to them is to try to attack the science head on, or try to prevent their children from being exposed to science.

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"I'm as accurate as any psychic. And I'm a cartoon!" -- Squidward

"Arrrgh, the laws of physics be a harsh mistress!" -- Bender

Well, it's not like the "official" constellations patterns were divinely revealed. Actually, there is a long history of reimagining the constellations to suit a Christian imagination. Julius Schiller published a celestial atlas in 1627 doing so, and there was at least one widely-reprinted 19th-century book following up this approach with a whole interpretation of many traditional constellation figures. (You get one guess about why the zodiac runs from the Virgin to the Lion if you start at the right place in the sky).

One of these days I'll post about the pre-Columbian inhabitants of these parts, who saw the southern part of Orion as a hand which assisted the souls of the departed on their journey to the Milky Way...

Actually YECs have lots of problems with astronomical distances. In short, they deny them or come up with speculative reasons why they seem to be real but actually don't exist.

You don't what? Are you familiar with the word "coy"?

Total waste of time by a group with a preconceived agenda that is promoted as "absolute truth".

You would do well by not throwing away your time with material provided by the ICR.

As a result you might have more time for soup.

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I have no problem with astronomical distances being what you say they are neither should YEC's. There is explanations within the YEC teachings which allow these astronomical distances, if they only but look at their own literature.

The astronomical distances are found by repeatable observations and are part of what is termed by creationists "operational science"

Any hue, the e-mail came on a bank holliday (public holliday) and so I had nothing else to do.

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The vast distances that exists to other galaxies has been verified by direct evidence thanks to SN1987A. Simple trigonometry reveals the distance must be close to 170,000 light years. This is direct evidence and not indirect as in utilizing Cepheid variables.

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"The Sun, with all the planets revolving around it, and depending on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as though it had nothing else in the universe to do..." Author: Galileo supposedly.