Hey all
I’m going to implement a “Robotic telescope” for my final year project in University. Actually this is a group project and my role is to make the telescope ‘robotic’. Doom controlling, weather station and mount will be carried out by other group members. Objective of this project is to give an opportunity to University students to observe sky through internet. In other words students will be able to share the same telescope and observe sky as they wish, via internet connection at their homes.

This project will be carried out in two phases
1. First phase - Do this project as prototype
2. Second phase - Implement robotic telescope in the University premises

In the first phase we are hoping to do this in small scale. We are intending to use a small telescope with inexpensive image capturing method (web cam or cheap CCD). Main target in this phase is to remotely access the telescope and take the images. This phase has to do in low cost manner since we have to manage the 70% of project budget by our own.

If we succeed the 1st phase (we eligible to take the degree  ), University will fund to implement the project in second phase. If so, we will be able to implement it in 2009, targeting the ‘Year of Astronomy’ and 25th anniversary of our University.

I have searched and roughly studied about the existing systems. I have electronic, programming and microcontroller knowledge for some extent. Although I don’t have much advanced astronomical knowledge I love astronomy lot and I’m really into the field. Through this project I want to get students in to this field as much as I can. We will be able to open the door for them to view the universe sharing one telescope. Students will be able to access to the telescope in an easy way via internet. We strongly believe this will be a turning point in the way that students ‘View the Universe’.
I would like assistance from BAUT about the above mentioned project. I would like to get opinions for the following questions. I’m looking forwarding your favorable help and assistance.

For the 1st phase

• What kind of telescope I should use for this task? (I hoping to use Orion StarBlast 4.5 Imaging Reflector OTA )
• What kind of remote access method do I have to use?
• Is there is free telescope control software that I can use for this project?
• Modifying webcam to take images- will it work?
• Is there is cheap CCD available?
• Where (in USA) I can find servo motor to this task?
• What is the best technique to control the focuser? What type of focusers do I have to use?
• What are the factors I have to consider when building the equatorial mount?
• RTML?

Any other suggestions are also highly appreciated.

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"Everything happens for reason"

Is this something that actually works or just a proof of concept type of thing? Building all you want from scratch would be a multi year project. Equatorial mounts capable of accurate pointing and tracking require machine shop equipment only the very best shops have.

A cheap CCD would be something like Meades old DSI I line. Shop the used market or modify a web cam for long exposure work. For planetary work an unmodified web cam (you do remove the lens and screw in an adapter) is the best way to go. Registax or K3CCDTools are free processing software.

You are probably money ahead to buy something like a Meade ETX which comes with almost everything you need. Focuser would be the main additional need. Several are available on the commercial market for it.

Rather than a dome use a simple roll off roof system. It would could be very small in size for such a scope.

Building from scratch would take several semisters and lots of machine shop time. The precision needed is extremely difficult to achieve but can be done. The accuracy needed in making the gears and bearings is beyond a basic machine shop.

Rick

In short, don't reinvent the wheel. Don't build from scratch what is readily and fairly inexpensively available on the commercial market!

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Any day you wake up on "the right side of the dirt" is a good day.

T. Anderson

Hi,
Thank you very much for your suggestions and ideas. Really appreciate your views about this. Anyhow we have to implement this in small scale in 1st phase. Students in three engineering fields are going to involve the project as their group project, which are Mechanical engineering, Computer engineering and Electronic engineering. Even implementing the telescope mount is little bit difficult & complex task we have to achieve that in small scale for the 1st phase. We have no choice in doing that. Since we have to make this as an engineering students’ project, it will be not nice to use off the shelf products such as complete telescope mounting system, even if they are available in inexpensive range. University allows us to use their CNC machines to do all of our machinery work.
I think now you have a clear picture of the project and hope you got an idea about the scope of the project. Anyhow I really appreciate your further suggestions about this project as a final year engineering project.
Thank you.

__________________
"Everything happens for reason"

So this is more a proof of concept type approach. It doesn't have to actually point and track with observatory accuracy nor does the focuser have to have accuracy such that it can return to an exact focal position or its movement tracked such that slippage is accounted for nor mount flex taken into consideration etc.

Does tracking need to be equatorial in that the field of view doesn't rotate? This would greatly simply things if an equatorially mounted scope is not required. Most new observatories have gone away from equatorial mountings. But then must you build a field derotator? Those are complex. Either type mount wouldn't point or track with observatory needed precision as the accuracy of the needed gears and bearings are beyond all but the most skilled machinist with a very complex machine shop. But one that sort of works but may point a half degree off and track accurately for only a few seconds could be made rather easily. It would be sufficient to take good shots of the moon for instance but not of the Orion Nebula. I'm assuming this is all that's needed here. Half degree pointing accuracy would be sufficient for the 4.5" scope you mentioned.

If alt-azimuth mounts using computer control of both axes is allowed to give equatorial tracking but with field rotation then a simple mount using stepper motors should suffice. Though I don't know what free software for controlling the motors is out there. I'd suspect it exists in the Linux world at least. That would be the heart of the system. If you must control a dome that too would provide the info needed to control the stepper motors rotating the dome as the slit would just track the azimuth coordinate of the object as it moves across the sky as well as the azimuth of the scope. Steps would likely be a different size is all.

If you only need to set focus by watching it in the sensor then a simple DC motor drive is all that's needed. You could easily modify a basic manual focuser for this. If focus need be calculated from data about the instrument and temperature then you'd need another stepper motor and a focuser and drive train that can't slip. Much more expensive and complex to build and get to work smoothly.

Stepper motors are available from many electronic supply houses as well as surplus outlets though your selection of step size and power may be a bit limited at surplus houses that's where I'd look first. I used to have all sorts of such catalogs but since retiring I pitched them when I moved. A web search should turn up lots of sellers.

A web cam is all you need for planetary imaging and it need not be modified other than taking the lens out and replacing it with a 1.25" adapter. Many astro dealers sell both.

How to control it all depends on distance. I run my observatory remotely in that I'm in the house and the scope is in the observatory less than 100' away. My focuser is serial, the CCDs and web cam are USB as is the mount. I convert the serial focuser signal to USB using a cheap off the shelf converter. The now 4 USB signals go to a USB hub when goes to an ethernet converter. Ethernet then brings the signal to the house where it is converted back to USB and plugged into the lap top. Though my drivers for this are all Windows based I imagine there are Linux versions out there, I just never checked the market for that. I say Linux as I've heard of free programs to control scopes in that operating system. There may be some under Windows as well, I just don't know of any.

Sorry that's about all the help I can give. I went the commercial route not open to you.

Rick

Hi rick,
Thank you very much for your suggestions. your sound feel me this is a difficult task. What u really think about this project? Do you think this project scope is too wide as university final year project?

__________________
"Everything happens for reason"

Knowing a thing or two about engineering, automated process control, and astronomy, I think you have undertaken a very ambitious project in such a short time. If I understand your first post, you hope to have a working prototype by the 2009 school year. There are many details, in my opinion to consider and the first and most important thing to control is the project management. The project goals must be defined (realistic goals), the various targets organized according to the skills of the team, time-tables established, and a system for checking progress put in place. The management need not be formal but project control is essential to ensure success, in my humble opinion.

Designing and building a two axis drive system should be well within the capabilities of some clever engineering students. I think you have some problems with finding ways to interface the drives with position feedback, to your controller. There are standard products that do this nicely, but they are typically outside the budget of typical university students. (When I was in university, I was poor ). You must give a lot of consideration about how to interface the drives because the tracking software must work seemlessly with the drive controller. (btw, I would consider belt drives, rather than gears but consult your mechanics, alas, I am not a mechanical engineer, I am an expert in controls)

Conceptually, I'm not sure how easily you can obtain satisfactory imaging in real time, but I am certain, if it is possible, people on this forum have experience with the equipment required and may know how to interface the imaging equipment. Another consideration is the logistics of multiple users accessing the same equipment remotely. You will have to deal with arbitrating concurrent requests.

All of these aspects need to be brainstormed, thought out in advance from start to finish and planned in detail. As a project manager you don't need to know how to do all of these things, you only need to know how to define the problem in terms of objectives and constraints, then let your engineering teams find the solutions. With proper management, and detailed planning, and good enthusiasm from the team, it may be possible to succeed.

Good luck,
-V

Hi, i was very busy past day's..Sorry for the silence..
Thank you so much for your opinions..Considering all the fact and your feedback we have changed the project scope..We narrow down our project scope..Please give me few days..still we discussing it with our supervisors.
what you think about RTML(Remote Telescope Markup Language)? i heard that, it is in research level..

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"Everything happens for reason"

In a nutshell, you get what you pay for.

Remote internet astronomy is not a project you can do on a shoestring budget.

The Telescopes In Education Foundation and Software Bisque, along with some other companies, pioneered the effort to bring remote astronomy to the classroom in 1993. It took a lot of money to do it.

As technology improved, software got better, internet came along and bandwidth increased.

But the hard fact is that you still need a substantial amount of money to get going. You need at least a GOTO telescope. You cannot remotely slew a Dobsonian.

You need integrated telescope control software. I recommend Software Bisque.

You need a better camera than a web cam. It would only show the moon and planets. You need a professional CCD camera from SBIG or Apogee or one of the other vendors. Why limit yourself to the Solar System?

Finally, you need a reliable high speed internet connection. Plus all of the personnel to operate the program.

In a nutshell, you get what you pay for.

Remote internet astronomy is not a project you can do on a shoestring budget.

The Telescopes In Education Foundation and Software Bisque, along with some other companies, pioneered the effort to bring remote astronomy to the classroom in 1993. It took a lot of money to do it.

As technology improved, software got better, internet came along and bandwidth increased.

But the hard fact is that yo still need a substantial amount of money to get going. You need at least a GOTO telescope. You cannot remotely slew a Dobsonian.

You need integrated telescope control software. I recommend Software Bisque.

You need a better camera than a web cam. It would only show the moon and planets. You need a professional CCD camera from SBIG or Apogee or one of the other vendors. Why limit yourself to the Solar System?

Finally, you need a reliable high speed internet connection. Plus all of the personnel to operate the program.

I think that's part of the challenge and i'm glad to see academia stepping up to it.