Astronomy as an investigative tool.
Forensics via remote sensing from the various agencies that have aquired data on the Planet Mars is now possible with sufficiently accurate geospatial knowledge.
Citing the mounting evidence being compiled by independant scientists and researchers concerning the Artificiality in the Cydonia region of Mars.
I propose an analysis of the region and it's structures by the Members of this Board.

Those members ,including Mr. Plait and any other members who can exhibit credentials as "Astronomers" or who possess celestial mechanics or other expertise in this Area are especially asked to participate.
This thread will be,for some members the first time they get down and dirty and actually investigate.Scoffing is LAZY.Do THE WORK.

This thread will have Astronomical theory as its focus but will by no means be limited solely to that subject.A multidisciplinary approach will deliver the best results.Many of You are Familiar with Ares' Face in Cydonia,as well as Classic enigmas like the D&M pyramid ,etc.
Well...That is a good thing.
I am absolutely confident when These anomalies are Seen through the Eye of a fair mind ,from under the pervasive dust,the eroded,collapsed structures(wether natural or not)and background noise of mundane geology,Intelligence will be gleaned from Cydonia.
Others before you have been dragged kicking and screaming toward this possibility and some of you will eventually also notice the flailings ,the trail in the martian dust that leads back to their safe place,insular,secure.
before they were dragged to this place where I am.

You will bring to the Investigation Your various knowledge of Science,be they Physics,geology,astronomy,music,geometry or art.
Architecture,drafting,Archeology,biology,exo-biology,etc.
Any members here in Possession of advanced software like Starry Night or Redshift are beseeched to help with plotting any possible data they can.
To See if there is a "Message" from Cydonia.

This Thread has an Automatic built-in one year term wich should be sufficient for the remaining duration of the Twin Rovers as well as the First public release by The ESA of data For Cydonia and Environs.

At the Least,after a year,I will walk away from here with enough tutilage to say I am an Rank Amatuer Astronomer thanks to the BA members help.At best,More Evidence of Artificiality(EA)than I already possess.

I look forward to many great debates,and to friends and hopefully not enemies I make along the way.I have noted that many Members here are of the belief that Cydonia and the Artificiality Question has thoroughly been discredited,This is Not so.

So to properly begin,We will open this discussion With the Cydonia region being the possible remains of an Civilization or Colony Not of this Earth that may have had intercourse with early human societies and will treat it as an Exo-Archeological Site where no In-situ digging has occurred and all evidence has been aquired by remote sensing from orbiting spacecraft.

This thread is now Open.
Basic areas of inquiry on my first post will be:
-How are Sites (cities,temple complexes,etc.) laid out in "Planview" on EARTH to either observe celestial events or Note a Specific astronomical alignment.
-How are Sites (cities,temple complexes,etc.) oriented to recieve maximum Solar benefits (heating,light play on architecture,streets,etc.)
-What Role does latitude play.
-What role does Longitude play.
-What is(if any) the Combined Lat./Long. role.
-Axial tilt is important,why.
-precession and wobble.

It is of my opinion that if Cydonia was designed and is now Ruins,it is possible to "Reverse Engineer" the blueprint.And THAT is the plumb that is weighted at the end of this thread.

My name is Clayton Spencer Ireland.
I Enter here an Apprentice.
I wish to leave a Master of at least the basic Astronomy concepts.
Teach me.

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With a Forked Tongue the Snake Singsss...

1st off...welcome to the board!

...and 2nd...as the BA is so fond of saying, there is a website attached to this BB. I would suggest you read this...particularly "face the face" and "city slicker" contain lots of information concerning the Cydonia "theorys".

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

Here's where you have to be careful if you want to approach something scientifically. The plumb at the end of your investigation should be to discover what is really there - even if it is a natural formation.

It is OK to have an initial opinion or a notion based on impressions, but to be scientific, you have to accept the possibility that the reality will be completely at odds with your belief.

This will allow you to bring in evidence that runs counter to your impressions. The simplest explanation for the shapes in Cydonia, based on all the information gathered from past missions and observations, as well as what is known about Mars today, is that the formations are completely natural.

Welcome to the board Electric Ashalar.
I think they used hills or big buildings (towers, temples, pyramids) to stand upon and look at the events.
While I've heard some Meso-American societies designed some buildings so that light/shadow effects would occur during events like equinoxes the orientation would be dependent on the latitude of the location. Most other societies did not have requirements for their buildings to ensure "maximum Solar benefits".
I don't think that it played much of a role in most societies.
Not sure what you're asking here. Axial tilt is important for things like seasons and without it there would be no equinox/solstice.

You are correct in that the members here are not convinced that there is any artificiality about Cydonia. With that in mind you may need to provide evidence of such. No one is going to spend time running numbers and angles in an attempt to find hidden messages if they do not think there is anything unusual about Cydonia.

Thank You for the welcome.

All points considered in the first few replies,Ladies and Gentlemen ,valid.
Nothing intrinsically wrong with scepticism,I was there a few years ago.
I'm as prepared to see what weight that plumb has hanging from this thread if you are as well.We're in for a good time so have fun.

As stated,this is going to be a very long thread.
I intend to show the members here the evidence that has led me to your doorstep from MY point of view.The cast of characters from Malin to Hoagland will almost as if necessity,eventually show up.I'm sure their claims and evidences will be assessed as no doubt Mine will be.
Quite rightly so.

Here is an image for the Board to consider as we begin our investigation.
it is the face of an Earth dial.

http://home.1asphost.com/jacobsladde...ndvirginia.jpg

taken from this website:

http://planetary.org/mars/earthdial/...ages_ED_7.html

It's importance or non-importance will be debatable at a later time,for now
merely note its similarity to Ares' face in profile.

http://home.1asphost.com/jacobsladde...poke-earth.jpg

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With a Forked Tongue the Snake Singsss...

Maybe it's just me but I don't see any "similarities" in these 2 images whatsoever. Does anyone else??

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

No, I don't either.

And the program to put a sun dial on the Mars rovers sure has nothing to do with the so called "face".

Forgive me.

It's easy to assume everyone can notice similarities ,here is a very BASIC graphic of what I meant,keeping in mind we are attempting to see if cydonia exhibits any astronomical significance.

Relax guys.
We've got a full AN to get where were going.

http://home.1asphost.com/jacobsladder/facedial.jpeg

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With a Forked Tongue the Snake Singsss...

So, if you manipulate the clock and pick your view of the "face," they match up? Is that a big deal?

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Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

I don't know.
Thats what I'm here to find out.

As I've stated,these images are merely for you to note a similarity.
Read into it what you will.

What I initialy asked was included in the Opening.
Now.Are there any astronomers here?

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With a Forked Tongue the Snake Singsss...

Well now.
I came here to learn and already two lessons seem to be taught. :wink:

My webhost can't handle the traffic from this site(wich is why you see X's and not images/andwill be rectified as best as I can) and a preliminary poll of 200 views has not produced an bona-fied astronomer stepping forward.
That's cool.I'm sure there are One or Two kicking around here.

Continuing...

As R.A.F. directed me to an "In House" website? termed- Face the Face/City Slicker I will direct you to a website at Cornell University.

Why?
Simply because In the BA pages linked by R.A.F. I note but will not Quote Mr.Plaits reference to finding patterns in Washington D.C. as easily as greenberg and his ilke can find them in phone books.
Since Cydonia And D.C. will be shown to be analogs...this is not a bad thing.Therefore we will allow Washington D.C. into the discussion as viewed by the Knibbs theory.

Begin:

http://www.library.cornell.edu/Reps/DOCS/knibbs.htm

http://www.library.cornell.edu/Reps/DOCS/knibbs.gif

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With a Forked Tongue the Snake Singsss...

Could you specify (and possibly point out) what mounting evidence?


As RAF pointed out, the BA himself has done a pretty thorough job of analysis.

Astronomer is a general term, which part of astronomy and what credentials are you refering too?

You will find that many here have already done the work and have concluded that the mesa is natural.

Another general statement. There are many astronomical theories, can you specify which one(s) you are refering to?

And your evidence for your confidence?

I have Starry Night Pro, but I'm not sure exactly what you want plotted and why you want us to do your work for you.

I'm interested in what part of astronomy you expect to become a rank amatuer.

Again, your proof? You won't find many here who will believe flat statements such as this without some very strong evidence.

Why not just treat it as a geological feature of no major importance, since there is no credible evidence of it being anything else? It seems to me that you want us to do your work in proving the artificiality of Cydonia.

Do you mean sites such as Stonehenge?

This assumes you want to recieve the maximum solar benefits. What if you live in the tropics and want protection from those benefits?

I'd say a lot. Since the strength of sunlight depends on the latitude.

I'd say none, unless the object is not rotating.

The individual latitude componet is more important that the combined components.

Because it changes the angle of the sun, and thus the strength of the sunlight, depending on the season.

Could be important due to precession changing which way the axis is tilted at the nearest and furthest points of the orbit.

Again, your proof?

Only if you will not accept refutations of your proof. Otherwise, you should not go into this with the preconcieved notion that your ideas cannot be proved wrong, and from this statement, it appears you have already made up your mind..

You have a lot of general statements and statements without proof. Care to clarify those general statements and provide proof? Maybe then we can start in on a discussion.

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Some try to tell me, thoughts they cannot defend,... - Moody Blues.

Neptune- The original Dark Matter.

The author feels that this technique of deliberately lying will actually make it easier for you to learn the ideas. - Donald Knuth

I'm assuming that you mean "what role do these things play in city planning"?

Well, historically, these things have had NO role in city planning, mainly because they were all invented, or discovered, or thought of, or codified only in the last 100 to 200 years. No ancient civilizations had the concept of longitude, latitude, axial tilt, or precession--those are all concepts that date from the modern scientific era. (The Vikings used the concept of latitude, and other ancient sailors may have used it as well, but the Vikings weren't city planners.)

And during the modern era, AFAIK there are no cities that have been founded on principles of latitude, longitude, axial tilt, or precession.

And if we see no similarities (and I don't either), what then? It's obvious that it means something to you, or you wouldn't have mentioned it. What similarities do you see?

Again, what exactly do you mean by astronomers and why you are specifying that you need an astronomer. And what credentials are you looking for in determining if someone is an astronomer?

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Some try to tell me, thoughts they cannot defend,... - Moody Blues.

Neptune- The original Dark Matter.

The author feels that this technique of deliberately lying will actually make it easier for you to learn the ideas. - Donald Knuth

My my! Tensor =D>

The Qualities of mind and comprehension you seem to possess.

That was an incredibly fast read of the knibbs theory!

Hello BTW.

Cydonia has easily survived the Geo-morphological model.
I assume the next step would be the possibility of having astronomical significance to it's layout.

Who better to assess this than an astronomer?
I am not one,are You.

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With a Forked Tongue the Snake Singsss...

Actually I was thinking that a first step might be to provide evidence of its existance before we tackle any layout.

Patience my new-found friends.

You request of me immediate demands While I ask of you a Year,there is plenty of days left to answer your inquests ,and you to answer mine.

What do you require to assess artificiality?
Don't let the title of this thread fool you,it is not about an earthdial,Lol!
it is about testing Cydonia.
You'll have my evidence in due course.
This is sort of a ...Shall we say:get to know you -Night. :wink:

We will obviously be speaking in terms of Known Systems.
(I can already hear the anthropocentric arguements forming in the mind...save it for later)

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With a Forked Tongue the Snake Singsss...

this guy sounds just like oxxo :roll:

Maybe EA should detail up-front what evidence would convince him that Cydonia is not artificial? It always helps to have a baseline from which to debate.

Not nearly as arrogant as Oxxo, I think.

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Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

This isn't a repeat of "oxxo"; after all, we've not been sworn at yet.

I do, however, fear that this is rather tragically an "I hold the key to the secret, tell me how much you want it and I'll let you see a bit" escapade.

Electric Ashalar, you've so far merely announced that you have a magical solution to the Cydonia "problem". I doubt anyone here will just accept that at face value, however, so some evidence will be required before we start guessing the number you're thinking of.

edit - actually, can you edit your post and remove the link to the very wide picture? Its playing merry hell with my browser, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Is it just me, or is it everyone else?

I have yet to find one single concrete piece of anything on this thread to which I (or anyone ) could ever possibly response...

If posters want responses, make 'em work for it!!!

Don't give them "attaboys, good response!" for posting less than aerogel...

It's great at disapaiting heat, as are the shuttle's tiles, but...

Not at all effective against the Word of God!

*Read half a sentence* scroll right *Read half a sentence* scroll left

When posting pictures please make sure they only take up one screen width.
Other wise it reformats the type and makes reading a thread like this very tedious....

Most people wouldn't bother to read it.

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http://boinc.mundayweb.com/one/stats...630/prj:6/.png

I think its all of us, Gene - we'd like Electric Ashalar to post something more substantial than "Hi, my name is Electric Ashalar, and I'd like some details on why the location of Cydonia is astronomically significant, what with it being an ancient civilization and all".

Hence us replying with variations of "Its not astronomically significant at all. What makes you think its a civilization, anyway?"

This website suggests four criteria, of which I would agree
that only "bilateral symmetry"
might...possibly...
argue for artificiality. Not many naturally
occuring geological features are bilaterally
symmetrical, so I'd be interested to see
somebody here at the BABB who knows
how take the Cydonia image and flip it in
a graphics program, see if it's bilaterally
symmetric.



I'm really sick of scrolling sideways, too, so
I'm adding carriage returns.

Electric Ashlar, if you could edit your post
and remove that humongous picture, you'd
get a LOT more responses in this thread.
A number of people are opening your thread,
seeing the Big Pic and the required PITA scrolling,
and are simply backing out again.

Triangleman
QUOTE:
"It always helps to have a baseline from which to debate."

Fair enough Sir.

The "baseline" will be the Cardinal points of the Compass.
and how the Structures (be they natural or modified) in Cydonia are oriented.
In this debate,obviously I will be pro-artifcial.

Here is the first working tool I propose we will use.

http://pdsmaps.wr.usgs.gov/PDS/publi...l/marsadvc.htm

I trust when you consider the software's origin,
the veracity of any claim can be checked using this tool.
The integrity of the Agency providing us this tool is not in doubt?
Also,come to think of it,You will note this is NEW data.

QUOTE:
"Please note that we are now using the newly updated
USGS black and white Mars Mosaicked Digital Image Model
(MDIM 2.0) as our Mars default dataset."

So,as You can see,We can Make Custom maps of Cydonia


I think this a good enough beginning to help assess Cydonia?

====================
Sorry guys...that HUMONGOUS pic isn,t That big from the website itself.
Ive edited my pictures and also have solved my bandwidth problem as a result ...so images should work within a day or so.

Now R.A.F. has to edit out the img. tags from his post quoting me so that the "earthdial" pic merely becomes a link also.
Thanx.

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With a Forked Tongue the Snake Singsss...

Here we can establish EAST.
By inference now the other cardinal points are obvious.

http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com...ikThemisFl.gif

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With a Forked Tongue the Snake Singsss...

Jigsaw
QUOTE:
"This website suggests four criteria, of which I would agree
that only "bilateral symmetry"
might...possibly...
argue for artificiality. Not many naturally
occuring geological features are bilaterally
symmetrical, so I'd be interested to see
somebody here at the BABB who knows
how take the Cydonia image and flip it in
a graphics program, see if it's bilaterally
symmetric. "

Here you go Sir...

Themis Visible and Thermal overlay combined.



Also the NEW D&M geometry


http://www.enterprisemission.com/ima...ep-ani-gif.gif

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With a Forked Tongue the Snake Singsss...

Why use old images when you can use new?

The left half mirrored.

The right half mirrored.

Oranges and apples see?

[edit: updated image]

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bunk: Empty talk; nonsense.
de·bunk: To expose or ridicule the falseness, sham, or exaggerated claims of.
http://home.iprimus.com.au/eddo/images/fredheadtsp.gif

Silly me, I thought there was a forum put aside for Cydonia and other Mars related discussions.

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Free speech is no problem
It's listening that costs