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Old 18-October-2004, 08:04 PM
John Dlugosz John Dlugosz is offline
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Default What's the latest news on the size of the Universe?

In Guth's book he says that the observable Universe is a "tiny speck" of the total size. I saw somewhere more reciently where it was stated that it was "at least 30 times larger" than we can see, but I don't remember where. I think it was concerning the latest C.B.R. data.

What's the current wizdom on the subject?
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Old 18-October-2004, 10:35 PM
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Take a peek here.
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Old 19-October-2004, 03:48 PM
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A different figure.

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994879
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Old 19-October-2004, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolverine
Take a peek here.
That article, I think, speaks to the proper distance to the "edge" of the observable universe. That is, objects (or in this case, the cosmic background radiation) observed whose light orginated at very high redshifts is NOW something like 46 billion light years away. The 78 billion light years number quoted is, I believe, the distance to the "event horizon", given the present combinations of cosmological parameters favored today. The cosmic event horizon is the maximum proper distance that we will ever see, and its existence is peculiar to universes with an accelerating expansion rate. However, I thought that number was closer to 62 billion light years (for the so-called "concordance" expansion parameters), so again, I am not quite sure where the quoted number comes from.

If you'd like to try your own hand in computing "distances" in cosmology, go to Ned Wright's "cosmocalculator" web page.

However, the poster of this question, I think, is wondering about just how large our universe really might be. The above describes the distance at a "cosmic now" of an object on our cosmic horizon. i.e., something akin to the size of our observable universe. However, our Universe is FAR larger, and may even be (if inflation or something like it is correct) FAR, FAR larger in size.
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Old 19-October-2004, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolverine
Take a peek here.
That article, I think, speaks to the proper distance to the "edge" of the observable universe. That is, objects (or in this case, the cosmic background radiation) observed whose light orginated at very high redshifts is NOW something like 46 billion light years away. The 78 billion light years number quoted is, I believe, the distance to the "event horizon", given the present combinations of cosmological parameters favored today. The cosmic event horizon is the maximum proper distance that we will ever see, and its existence is peculiar to universes with an accelerating expansion rate. However, I thought that number was closer to 62 billion light years (for the so-called "concordance" expansion parameters), so again, I am not quite sure where the quoted number comes from.

If you'd like to try your own hand in computing "distances" in cosmology, go to Ned Wright's "cosmocalculator" web page.

However, the poster of this question, I think, is wondering about just how large our universe really might be. The above describes the distance at a "cosmic now" of an object on our cosmic horizon. i.e., something akin to the size of our observable universe. However, our Universe is FAR larger, and may even be (if inflation or something like it is correct) FAR, FAR larger in size.
A lot of this is discussed in Brian Greene's Fabric of the Cosmos when writes about inflation. It's possible that what we see of the universe is only a fraction of the whole thing, and that many "local" big bangs/inflation periods could have happened.
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Old 19-October-2004, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff
That article, I think, speaks to the proper distance to the "edge" of the observable universe.
Of course -- I posted it just to offer some perspective.
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Old 20-October-2004, 04:14 AM
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If inflation theory is valid, the quantum jitters were stretched during inflation allowing for the formation of the WMAP results. I wonder if enough is known about the quantum jitters to take a stab at the size based on this alone?
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Old 20-October-2004, 07:10 AM
Ari Jokimaki Ari Jokimaki is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George
If inflation theory is valid, the quantum jitters were stretched during inflation allowing for the formation of the WMAP results. I wonder if enough is known about the quantum jitters to take a stab at the size based on this alone?
Doesn't inflation theory require flat spacetime cosmology? And doesn't that mean that the universe is infinite in size?
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Old 20-October-2004, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari Jokimaki
Quote:
Originally Posted by George
If inflation theory is valid, the quantum jitters were stretched during inflation allowing for the formation of the WMAP results. I wonder if enough is known about the quantum jitters to take a stab at the size based on this alone?
Doesn't inflation theory require flat spacetime cosmology? And doesn't that mean that the universe is infinite in size?
As I understand it, the inflationary hypothesis or scenario and their kin do not require the universe to be infinite in size. Inflation merely makes the universe spatially flat on very large scales (i.e., far, far beyond the current horizon). What you suggest was true for expansion that doesn't include an early inflationary phase, and in the old "density is destiny" scenarios. When you throw in very early inflation and a late accelerated expansion rate, things aren't quite as cut and dry. To give you a more concrete example....if we consider the planet Earth to be the entire Universe of a virus sitting on a Walmart parking lot, its 'universe' (the Walmart parking lot) is spatially flat, even if its Universe (the planet Earth) is finite and curved. The analogy isn't perfect, but I am just trying to make the point....

On the other hand, when you hear just how inflated the universe might be due to the early inflationary phase, you'll conclude that the universe might just as well be infinite in size....To George -- the number of e-foldings in the size scale of the universe that took place during inflation isn't pinned down by the various inflationary scenarios. All we 'know' is that it had to be done and over with by 10^-12 seconds, and probably much earlier (< 10^-30 seconds).
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Old 21-October-2004, 06:49 AM
Ari Jokimaki Ari Jokimaki is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff
As I understand it, the inflationary hypothesis or scenario and their kin do not require the universe to be infinite in size.
Well, it's quite possible that I either have misunderstood it or remember it wrong. I just remember reading something about inflation theory which quite clearly stated that inflationary theory requires the omega to be exactly 1. But it's long time ago, so for now I just take your word for it and do some reading about it to check.

Maybe some early version of inflation theory had this requirement?
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Old 21-October-2004, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari Jokimaki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff
As I understand it, the inflationary hypothesis or scenario and their kin do not require the universe to be infinite in size.
Well, it's quite possible that I either have misunderstood it or remember it wrong. I just remember reading something about inflation theory which quite clearly stated that inflationary theory requires the omega to be exactly 1. But it's long time ago, so for now I just take your word for it and do some reading about it to check.

Maybe some early version of inflation theory had this requirement?
Omega=1, steady state.

Omega less than one, Big Crunch.

Omega greater than one, expanding universe in which we find our selves.
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Old 21-October-2004, 09:16 AM
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Omega = 1, flat

Omega < 1, closed

Omega > 1, open
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Old 21-October-2004, 10:05 AM
Ari Jokimaki Ari Jokimaki is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowcelt
Omega=1, steady state.
In the context of the big bang theory, omega=1 means that universe expands forever at an ever-slowing rate. But perhaps you mean this (from this John Gribbin article):

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Gribbin
There are similarities between the idea of eternal inflation and a self-reproducing universe and the version of the Steady State hypothesis developed in England by Fred Hoyle and Jayant Narlikar, with their C-field playing the part of the scalar field that drives inflation. As Hoyle wryly pointed out at a meeting of the Royal Astronomical Society in London in December 1994, the relevant equations in inflation theory are exactly the same as in his version of the Steady State idea, but with the letter "C" replaced by the Greek "Ø". "This," said Hoyle (tongue firmly in cheek) "makes all the difference in the world".
Spaceman Spiff, here's another thing from that same article (emphasis mine):

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Gribbin
But most of the modifications to inflation now being made are in response to new observations, and in particular to the suggestion that spacetime may not be quite "flat" after all. In the mid-1990s, many studies (including observations made by the refurbished Hubble Space Telescope) began to suggest that there might not be quite enough matter in the Universe to make it perfectly flat -- most of the observations suggest that there is only 20 per cent or 30 per cent as much matter around as the simplest versions of inflation require. The shortfall is embarrassing, because one of the most widely publicised predictions of simple inflation was the firm requirement of exactly 100 per cent of this critical density of matter.
So it looks like it indeed was an early version of inflation theory that made the prediction and my knowledge needs updating.
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Old 21-October-2004, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari Jokimaki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff
As I understand it, the inflationary hypothesis or scenario and their kin do not require the universe to be infinite in size.
Well, it's quite possible that I either have misunderstood it or remember it wrong. I just remember reading something about inflation theory which quite clearly stated that inflationary theory requires the omega to be exactly 1. But it's long time ago, so for now I just take your word for it and do some reading about it to check.

Maybe some early version of inflation theory had this requirement?
Omega_total is indeed 1 in the inflation scenario and so the spatial geometry is indeed flat, but the same scenario does not require that the universe be mathematically infinite in size. Only VERY large.
At least that is how I understand it. The "solutions" mentioned by Ari and others above result from expanding universes following the FRW equations of motion without a previous episode of inflation. Inflation makes the observable universe, and FAR beyond, as FLAT as Illinois along I-57 and effectively nearly infinite in size. But our particular "bubble" needn't be mathematically infinite. Splitting hairs.
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