Chatroom
 

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum > Space and Astronomy > Astronomy
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
LinkBack (1) Thread Tools Display Modes
  #2761 (permalink)  
Old 24-April-2007, 10:18 AM
maryccc's Avatar
maryccc maryccc is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 169
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeDi View Post
My bet is on China, 2137 BC, Oct 22. I have only the German transcriptions of their names being Chi and Cho, but will I get an extra cookie (or some extra spelling slack) for the emperor's name being transcribed as Tschung Kang and the sentence having been decapitation? BTW, Seleshnikov considers it a legend one might believe or not, so maybe you are after some other event.
This might not be a good question because I am finding different dates as the answer. Should I ask another one?
Reply With Quote
  #2762 (permalink)  
Old 24-April-2007, 12:15 PM
George's Avatar
George George is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Antonio, Tx.
Posts: 7,207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryccc View Post
This might not be a good question because I am finding different dates as the answer. Should I ask another one?
If it seems clear there is no definitive complete answer, then we will respect your judgement. If Jedi's answer is close enough, I would encourage your acceptance of it, but let us know what you understood was the answer for it is an interesting question.
__________________
Lighten up! This is a stellar board! Author: duh.

"The Sun, with all the planets revolving around it, and depending on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as though it had nothing else in the universe to do..." Author: Galileo supposedly.
Reply With Quote
  #2763 (permalink)  
Old 24-April-2007, 04:34 PM
maryccc's Avatar
maryccc maryccc is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 169
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeDi View Post
My bet is on China, 2137 BC, Oct 22. I have only the German transcriptions of their names being Chi and Cho, but will I get an extra cookie (or some extra spelling slack) for the emperor's name being transcribed as Tschung Kang and the sentence having been decapitation? BTW, Seleshnikov considers it a legend one might believe or not, so maybe you are after some other event.
Well you have the country right. But my date and your date are a little different and the names are spelled wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #2764 (permalink)  
Old 24-April-2007, 04:38 PM
maryccc's Avatar
maryccc maryccc is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 169
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
"Here lie the bodies of Ho and Hi,
Whose fate, though sad, is risible;
Being slain because they could not spy
Th' eclipse which was invisible."

Author unknown
Said to refer to the Chinese eclipse of 2136 BC or 2159 BC.

[Edit: According to my Starry Night program, it was 2137 BC (often people forget there was no year zero and miss the date by one year). So, unless I got lucky with the names, which look contrived, Jedi got it correct (though I did not see his post since we entered it both during the same minute).]
You have the country right, one of the dates are right and you have the correct spellings of the names
Reply With Quote
  #2765 (permalink)  
Old 24-April-2007, 04:40 PM
Eroica's Avatar
Eroica Eroica is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Dubh Linn
Posts: 3,622
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
If it seems clear there is no definitive complete answer ...
I would go further and say that there is no correct answer, as this is not genuine history; it's pseudo-history.
__________________
- Learn a lot teaching others.
Reply With Quote
  #2766 (permalink)  
Old 24-April-2007, 04:48 PM
JeDi JeDi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 237
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryccc View Post
This might not be a good question because I am finding different dates as the answer.
I think you might find different transcriptions of the names as well unless you stick to the particular ancient Chinese script of the original source.
Quote:
Should I ask another one?
I'd be fine with that.
Reply With Quote
  #2767 (permalink)  
Old 24-April-2007, 04:58 PM
JeDi JeDi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 237
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryccc View Post
Well you have the country right. But my date and your date are a little different
The 22nd Oct 2137 BC relates to the eclipse, not the execution.
Quote:
and the names are spelled wrong.
As I said this is a German transcription, there are probably even various English transcription schemes for Chinese, and even the Chinese script used today is different from the scripts used 4000 years ago, so no rescue by unicode.
Reply With Quote
  #2768 (permalink)  
Old 24-April-2007, 05:11 PM
JeDi JeDi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 237
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
unless I got lucky with the names, which look contrived
They look much like those given by me, and I think they refer to the same originals. What is transcribed as "h" in your source and as "ch" in mine is probably the same sound. If my guess of it is correct it refers to a sound in modern Chinese which doesn't exist in English, has only sort of a relative (or two) in German and similar in Russian, and a somewhat closer relative in Finnish.
Quote:
(though I did not see his post since we entered it both during the same minute).]
Yeah, I was shocked too. But you know what is said, which minds think alike?
Reply With Quote
  #2769 (permalink)  
Old 24-April-2007, 07:31 PM
maryccc's Avatar
maryccc maryccc is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 169
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeDi View Post
They look much like those given by me, and I think they refer to the same originals. What is transcribed as "h" in your source and as "ch" in mine is probably the same sound. If my guess of it is correct it refers to a sound in modern Chinese which doesn't exist in English, has only sort of a relative (or two) in German and similar in Russian, and a somewhat closer relative in Finnish.

Yeah, I was shocked too. But you know what is said, which minds think alike?
the answer was china, hi ho and 2136
Reply With Quote
  #2770 (permalink)  
Old 24-April-2007, 07:47 PM
George's Avatar
George George is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Antonio, Tx.
Posts: 7,207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryccc View Post
the answer was china, hi ho and 2136
How sure of you of that answer, though? This sounds like a Chinese version of Mr. Wilson on Tool Time - hidey ho neighbor. I vote you give it to Jedi as his names at least sound like real Chinese names. Also, I would bet an ice cream sundae that it was actually in 2137 BC and not 2136, contrary to what you read in other web sites. Jedi was first with the correct date and this is the only objective element of your question. [I have checked my new Starry Night software and it shows a solar eclipse on that very day in 2137, and, on 2136 the Moon was not even close to the Sun. I have discovered that other solar eclipses are shown as being one year off confirming my view that other web sites are in error when they show the date as one year earlier because of the fact there was no year 0 AD/BC.]

[BTW, I am having trouble knowning when to capitalize Sun and Moon, and when not to. Any advice? ]
__________________
Lighten up! This is a stellar board! Author: duh.

"The Sun, with all the planets revolving around it, and depending on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as though it had nothing else in the universe to do..." Author: Galileo supposedly.
Reply With Quote
  #2771 (permalink)  
Old 25-April-2007, 12:43 AM
crosscountry's Avatar
crosscountry crosscountry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texan in Texas
Posts: 4,514
Default

bring on Jedi
__________________
"I will do my best to understand and explain the universe from big to small without invoking miracles, unrepeatable events, or divine intervention. In place of those things I will use observations, mathematics, and science."


-Cross
My travel blog

Some of my Astrophotography


Those that lack education have a hard time understanding its value. - Cross
Reply With Quote
  #2772 (permalink)  
Old 25-April-2007, 02:50 PM
maryccc's Avatar
maryccc maryccc is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 169
Default

ok jedi your turn. Ask a better question than I did.
Reply With Quote
  #2773 (permalink)  
Old 25-April-2007, 04:31 PM
Eroica's Avatar
Eroica Eroica is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Dubh Linn
Posts: 3,622
Default

How high is a Chinaman.
How low is his brother.
__________________
- Learn a lot teaching others.
Reply With Quote
  #2774 (permalink)  
Old 25-April-2007, 04:56 PM
George's Avatar
George George is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Antonio, Tx.
Posts: 7,207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eroica View Post
How high is a Chinaman.
How low is his brother.
Have you no respect for the departed, or poisoned perhaps, astronomers?
__________________
Lighten up! This is a stellar board! Author: duh.

"The Sun, with all the planets revolving around it, and depending on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as though it had nothing else in the universe to do..." Author: Galileo supposedly.
Reply With Quote
  #2775 (permalink)  
Old 25-April-2007, 05:40 PM
JeDi JeDi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 237
Default

Long time, no see
The women in astronomee

In love with the long end she went to the angels,
And with a sharpened eye she saw the whirl in the sky.
Reply With Quote
  #2776 (permalink)  
Old 25-April-2007, 05:52 PM
JeDi JeDi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 237
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
his names at least sound like real Chinese names.
I'm not sure what Chinese names from more than 4000 years ago are supposed to sound like. The "ch" in the German transcript is -unlike American transcripts- a fricative sound, related to "h". But when it comes to person's names from an ancient Chinese scribble which are transcribed into latin letters (usually on a phonetic basis, which in this case was probably taken from (which?) one of the modern Chinese dialects to pronounce corresponding glyphs) there is not much of "correct spelling" left. We talk about "Hi & Ho" versus "Chi & Cho", even "Ki & Ko" could be correct (The "i" is probably as in "hit" and doesn't really rhyme with "spy"). If one suggestion would be "Chop & Suey" - yes, this would indicate a difference.
Quote:
I have checked my new Starry Night software and it shows a solar eclipse on that very day in 2137
Which day? Oct 22?
Quote:
I have discovered that other solar eclipses are shown as being one year off confirming my view that other web sites are in error when they show the date as one year earlier because of the fact there was no year 0 AD/BC.
Wouldn't this be one year later? Yes, this is a common error (Remember the beginning of the new millennium?), but be aware that there is also an astronomical counting scheme incorporating a year zero and a negative sign with 1BC=0 and 2137BC=-2136.
Quote:
I am having trouble knowning when to capitalize Sun and Moon, and when not to. Any advice?
I think it is to be capitalized when used as a proper name. Sol is our sun - and we call it the Sun, but Gliese 581b orbits a different sun. Mars has not only one moon but two moons, the Earth has only one moon: the Moon. While Luna is a moon of Earth, Phobos is a moon of mars.
Reply With Quote
  #2777 (permalink)  
Old 25-April-2007, 06:21 PM
George's Avatar
George George is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Antonio, Tx.
Posts: 7,207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeDi View Post
I'm not sure what Chinese names from more than 4000 years ago are supposed to sound like.
I think in simple terms... "Chi" would be Chinese and Hi would have to be more Hinese (thus, less Chinese).

Quote:
Which day? Oct 22?
Yes. It was nearly a total eclipse for the random coordinates I selected for a Chinese location.

Quote:
Wouldn't this be one year later?
Hmmm... what is the proper way to say it? 2137BC is an earlier sounding date than 2136BC, so isn't it "earlier" rather than "later"?

Quote:
I think it is to be capitalized when used as a proper name. Sol is our sun - and we call it the Sun, but Gliese 581b orbits a different sun. Mars has not only one moon but two moons, the Earth has only one moon: the Moon. While Luna is a moon of Earth, Phobos is a moon of mars.
Ok, that is consistent with what Ken told me, too. I would bet that I have seen them used contrary to this rule.
__________________
Lighten up! This is a stellar board! Author: duh.

"The Sun, with all the planets revolving around it, and depending on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as though it had nothing else in the universe to do..." Author: Galileo supposedly.
Reply With Quote
  #2778 (permalink)  
Old 25-April-2007, 10:24 PM
JeDi JeDi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 237
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
2137BC is an earlier sounding date than 2136BC, so isn't it "earlier" rather than "later"?
Yes, 2137BC is earlier and 2136BC is later.
Quote:
I would bet that I have seen them used contrary to this rule.
I see language used contrary to all rules every day … And I didn't capitalize "mars" in my last sentence. Hope the god of war forgives me and we don't get an Angry Red Planet!
Reply With Quote
  #2779 (permalink)  
Old 25-April-2007, 10:25 PM
George's Avatar
George George is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Antonio, Tx.
Posts: 7,207
Default

Is that your question?

Oops, I missed it above, sorry.
__________________
Lighten up! This is a stellar board! Author: duh.

"The Sun, with all the planets revolving around it, and depending on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as though it had nothing else in the universe to do..." Author: Galileo supposedly.
Reply With Quote