Gas generators were in high demand from what I hear. How do you get solar power to work in 24 hour a day overcast rain? Gas generators run in all weather conditions, as long as you have fuel. The whole point of fossil fuels is that there doesn't have to be a grid. Your cars/trucks/planes/houses in emergency situations don't have to have extension cords to a centralized power plant.

Solar power cannot replace the energy requirements for smelting and refining metals, minerals, even the glass that the solar panels were made from. You can't smelt steel with a resistor coil, mostly because you can't operate heating elements at those temperatures. It would be pungently inefficient to do so anyway, due to the thermal->electrical->high current electrical->thermal conversions. More importantly, about a quarter of this is for transportation. Without sheerly massive amounts of artificial power funneled through woefully inefficient power to chemical conversion, we cannot replace this demand in our cars and trucks. While it is concievable to make a one-seater "family car" out of plastic with a passenger weight limit of 100 lbs and thus improve fuel "efficiency", it doesn't change the amount of cargo that people want to move, or the bottom-line energy requirements of such activity. Semi-trucks won't get that much more fuel efficient. They already are diesel cycles. And if your average family is denied SUV's to pack their stuff for activities abroad, they'll rent trucks.

While it is not impossible to make money on solar powered activities, the activities that are in demand, and which underpin our capable modern economy, rely on oil or coal based power. Without these activies, it is hard to imagine how the modern world would work. No efficient transportation. No steel, metal, or energy intensive materials refinable. No concrete. No air travel. You may have off the grid electricity, but it won't do you much good if you can't travel and cannot use what you produce to buy goods based on furnace production, ect.

__________________
http://amssolarempire.blogspot.com

The late Dr. Theodor Landscheidt
<th.landscheidt@t-online.de> was my favorite author on this subject.

I probably quoted from his papers in the lengthy discussion on the Iron Sun, but I can't find it now.

If his website is still maintained, I will post that link here.

With kind regards,

Oliver
http://www.umr.edu/~om

PS - Found it!

http://www.john-daly.com/solar/solar.htm

ASEI, re...EVERYHING about generators. Since this is the world I am familiar with, I have just got to make a couple of comments...A couple of Dozen!

Sure! (Point #1)But not all of the 6 million people without power bought one.
(Point #2) They are expensive.
(Point #3) The stores had only so many on the shelves.
(Point #4) New orders couldn't come in quickly because of debris filled and washed out roads, and power lines down on roads.
(Point #5) Trucks couldn't ship new generators in because there was no gasoline available in many parts of the state, because the gasoline trucks couldn't use the roads because of the aforementioned reasons.
(Point #6) Generators run on gasoline, and did I mention that there was no gasoline available?
(Point #7) Lots and lots of the people who did buy a generator didn't read the instructions and within a couple of days of operation, the repair shops were filled with broken generators stacked to the ceiling. Because, they require:
(Point #8) An oil change every 25 to 40 hours of operation. If you do not change the oil frequently, they will seize up.
(Point #9) Another problem with not changing the oil is that a generator can start to seize up and throw a piston rod through the side of the crankcase, this is kind of like a shrapnel producing explosion.
(Point #10) Another problem with generators is that, the ones that most folks can afford to buy do not have the capacity to run the entire house. Usually, they are only 5 kilowatts or 6 KW output, and a regular house might need 70 to 100 KW for everything at peak demand hours.

I've got to be real serious with here you ASEI...What you don't know about the capabilities and proper operation of generators can get people killed! Please read on.

(Point #11) A generator has to be protected from the weather for proper, safe operation.
If a generator is allowed to get wet from the rain, or is operated in, or near standing water, electrocution may result! In fact, some folks did operate their generators in the rain recently, and they were electrocuted. They are dead now.

(Point #12) A generator cannot be operated in an enclosed space attached to a house, such as a garage or storage room. Carbon monoxide (among other toxic gases) is produced and can leak through improperly fitted or weatherstriped doors, and through attic spaces. These gases can kill the occupants of the house. In fact, some folks did operate their generators in their garages recently, and they were poisoned/asphyxiated. They are dead now.

(Point #13) In addition, if a generator is allowed to get wet from the rain, especially from the sideways driving rain during a storm like a hurricane, the paper in the air filters clogs up, chokes the generator and the generator breaks down.

(Point #14) Also, every 100 to 200 hours of operation, a generator needs its cylinder head removed, and built-up carbon cleaned out. The head gasket has to replaced with a new gasket. If the carbon is not removed, efficiency and power output is reduced, and the generator also runs the risk of having the piston throw reduced, which will lead to binding and a thrown piston, and possible "explosion".

(Point #15) Generators can emit lots of heat and could represent a fire hazard.
(Point #16) Generators can emit sparks, which also represent a fire hazard.

(Point #17) Generators are NOISY!! Unpleasantly noisy.
(Point #18) And Stinky! Imagine a whole neighborhood of noisy, stinky generators running. Yuck.

(Point #19) No, they have to have extension cords to the generator. And most people use plain extension cords, which usually are only 16 Ga wire, then try to run appliances which require 10 to 12 Ga wire. Reduced wire size increases resistance and reduces the amount of power that can be delivered to appliances, which could damage the appliances. Or, it could lead to increased electrical losses, reducing total electrical output which reduces fuel efficiency.

(Point #20) Generators don't throttle down too much with lighter loads, so if you are on a light duty-cycle/reduced load, and only needing about 1 kilowatt of power, the generator is consuming almost as much fuel as for the full 5 to 6 kilowatts.

(Point #21) The cost of fuel to produce each kilowatt from a standard generator is about $0.62 per kilowatt, roughly 6 times the national average (in U.S.) of $0.10 per Kilowatt hour.

(Point #22) If you factor in the costs for oil changes and head gasket changes and the amortized cost of the generator itself, the cost of each kilowatt goes up to about $2.87 per kilowatt hour in the first year, about 28 Times the cost for grid produced electricity.

(Point #23) When you consider that the generator is only able to produce about 16 times less power of peak electricity than a standard house consumes, at a cost which is 28 times greater than commercially produced electricity, the cost-benefit ratio of generator produced electricity is 448 times worse than running the house off of the grid. That's over Four Hundred Times Worse!

All around, generators are a desperate, expensive, unpleasant, labor-intensive quick-fix to a basic problem...Which is:

(Point #24) Most houses waste too much energy. It makes no sense to try to generate energy for an inefficient house.

(Point #25)It is better to build an efficient house, and then supply power with a combination of solar panels and batteries. Generators should only be used as a power source of last resort.

So, re-A good battery set in an efficiently designed house can see it through nearly a week without the solar panels getting any sun. And usually here in Florida, it's sunny the day before a hurricane, and sunny the day after one. So, the maximum amount of time we have to go without sun is usually only a day or two. Charlie was a fluke, and moved slowly through my area over a period of almost 4 days. And then sometimes, we've had a hurricane move through at night, and get full sun the very next morning, and the solar panels make their juice uninterrupted.

Regarding the rest of your comments about the tremendous amounts or power you think our society requires, and how you believe that solar power cannot possible meet the demand...I could spend more hours responding to those comments point-by-point.

However, as much fun as that would be, I feel that it would be a more productive use of my time to get to work on building the next energy-efficient structure, and reinforce my own beliefs with tangible, credible results.

__________________
Pre-Quote: 'To survive one has to experiment. When the environment changes, the traditional way of doing things doesn't work.'

Quote:
&quot;It's the outriders, the organisms that seem to be maladjusted before the change, which are the only ones that survive these changes...in that way a species continues.&quot;

Carl Sagan

Wow, Tom! I wonder the manufacturers of generators are not at your door with lawsuits for libel! :P

I´ve always been an advocate for solar energy. Solar panels have always seemed the best way forward to me - even before the last decades of warning on the greenhouse effect produced by the excessive amounts of CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere day after day from the use of carbon based fuels like coal & oil. Now they are getting ever more efficient there is no excuse for the governments of the developed countries of the world not to subsidise the installation of solar panels in the new constructions of houses nowadays - the long term benefits would far outweigh the economical costs of the present. If only our politicians had their thoughts on the long term future of our people instead of their prospects of being elected in the next election we might get somewhere!

__________________
"A wild scheme, it would be useless undertaking”
Charles Darwin's father on hearing of his son's plans to join HMS Beagle

SpaceMad's Space Page

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Spacemad! Glad to see your comment!

Re-Gee, you'd think that being concerned with the future of the electorate would help the politicians get elected!

I guess we should rephrase a modern democracy as "Buy the People"

__________________
Pre-Quote: 'To survive one has to experiment. When the environment changes, the traditional way of doing things doesn't work.'

Quote:
&quot;It's the outriders, the organisms that seem to be maladjusted before the change, which are the only ones that survive these changes...in that way a species continues.&quot;

Carl Sagan

Sure! (Point #1)But not all of the 6 million people without power bought one.
(Point #2) Gasoline generators are expensive.
me: $3500 watts for $300
(Point #3) The stores had only so many on the shelves.
(Point #4) New orders couldn't come in quickly because of debris filled and washed out roads, and power lines down on roads.
(Point #5) Trucks couldn't ship new generators in because there was no gasoline available in many parts of the state, because the gasoline trucks couldn't use the roads because of the aforementioned reasons.
(Point #6) Generators run on gasoline, and did I mention that there was no gasoline available?
(Point #7) Lots and lots of the people who did buy a generator didn't read the instructions and within a couple of days of operation, the repair shops were filled with broken generators stacked to the ceiling. Because, they require:
(Point #8) An oil change every 25 to 40 hours of operation. If you do not change the oil frequently, they will seize up.
(Point #9) Another problem with not changing the oil is that a generator can start to seize up and throw a piston rod through the side of the crankcase, this is kind of like a shrapnel producing explosion.
(Point #10) Another problem with generators is that, the ones that most folks can afford to buy do not have the capacity to run the entire house. Usually, they are only 5 kilowatts or 6 KW output, and a regular house might need 70 to 100 KW for everything at peak demand hours.

(Point #11) A generator has to be protected from the weather for proper, safe operation.
If a generator is allowed to get wet from the rain, or is operated in, or near standing water, electrocution may result! In fact, some folks did operate their generators in the rain recently, and they were electrocuted. They are dead now.
me: The electrocution hazard is exaggerated.

(Point #12) A generator cannot be operated in an enclosed space attached to a house, such as a garage or storage room. Carbon monoxide (among other toxic gases) is produced and can leak through improperly fitted or weatherstriped doors, and through attic spaces. These gases can kill the occupants of the house. In fact, some folks did operate their generators in their garages recently, and they were poisoned/asphyxiated. They are dead now.

(Point #13) In addition, if a generator is allowed to get wet from the rain, especially from the sideways driving rain during a storm like a hurricane, the paper in the air filters clogs up, chokes the generator and the generator breaks down.

(Point #14) Also, every 100 to 200 hours of operation, a generator needs its cylinder head removed, and built-up carbon cleaned out. The head gasket has to replaced with a new gasket. If the carbon is not removed, efficiency and power output is reduced, and the generator also runs the risk of having the piston throw reduced, which will lead to binding and a thrown piston, and possible "explosion".

(Point #15) Generators can emit lots of heat and could represent a fire hazard.
(Point #16) Generators can emit sparks, which also represent a fire hazard.

(Point #17) Generators are NOISY!! Unpleasantly noisy.
(Point #18) And Stinky! Imagine a whole neighborhood of noisy, stinky generators running. Yuck.
me: A home made muffler can reduce the noise smell spark and fire hazard and warm some water.

(Point #19) They have to have extension cords to the generator. And most people use plain extension cords, which usually are only 16 Ga wire, then try to run appliances which require 10 to 12 Ga wire. Reduced wire size increases resistance and reduces the amount of power that can be delivered to appliances, which could damage the appliances. Or, it could lead to increased electrical losses, reducing total electrical output which reduces fuel efficiency.

(Point #20) Generators don't throttle down too much with lighter loads, so if you are on a light duty-cycle/reduced load, and only needing about 1 kilowatt of power, the generator is consuming almost as much fuel as for the full 5 to 6 kilowatts.

(Point #21) The cost of fuel to produce each kilowatt from a standard generator is about $0.62 per kilowatt, roughly 6 times the national average (in U.S.) of $0.10 per Kilowatt hour.
me: If you store 100 gallons of gasoline on a small residential lot, you likely void your fire insurance and are likely breaking the law. The gasoline will deteriate if you store it more than a few months.

(Point #22) If you factor in the costs for oil changes and head gasket changes and the amortized cost of the generator itself, the cost of each kilowatt goes up to about $2.87 per kilowatt hour in the first year, about 28 Times the cost for grid produced electricity.

(Point #23) When you consider that the generator is only able to produce about 16 times less power of peak electricity than a standard house consumes, at a cost which is 28 times greater than commercially produced electricity, the cost-benefit ratio of generator produced electricity is 448 times worse than running the house off of the grid. That's over Four Hundred Times Worse!

All around, generators are a desperate, expensive, unpleasant, labor-intensive quick-fix to a basic problem...Which is:

(Point #24) Most houses waste too much energy. It makes no sense to try to generate energy for an inefficient house.
me: There are some disadvantages to an efficient house, such as indoor air polution.

(Point #25)It is better to build an efficient house, and then supply power with a combination of solar panels and batteries. Generators should only be used as a power source of last resort.

A good battery set in an efficiently designed house can see it through nearly a week without the solar panels getting any sun. And usually here in Florida, it's sunny the day before a hurricane, and sunny the day after one. So, the maximum amount of time we have to go without sun is usually only a day or two. Charlie was a fluke, and moved slowly through my area over a period of almost 4 days. And then sometimes, we've had a hurricane move through at night, and get full sun the very next morning, and the solar panels make their juice uninterrupted.
me: Let's assume an inefficient house needs 200 kilowatt hours for 3 days without sun. 60 kilowatt hours for an efficient house. that's 50 deep cycle batteries, about 60 pounds each and about $80 each = $4000. Perhaps Tesla will sell you the battery pack for the Tesla roadster = 56 kilowatt hours about 800 pounds, but it will cost lots more. Batteries quickly turn into trash without tender loving care. Neil