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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 22-September-2005, 05:10 AM
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Default Definition of a 'moon' (or satellite)

With the increasing number of moons being discovered in the solar system in the past several years, can we set a limit as to what a 'moon' should be?

Perhaps something like 10km+ bodies only, or only ones with non-retrograde mainly circular orbits (but then that would rule out Triton...)?

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Old 22-September-2005, 06:57 AM
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Perhaps a moon could be required to meet any 2 of the following criteria:

- Tidal locked to planet
- Circular, prograde orbit
- Spherical
- More than a certain threshhold size or mass

But honestly, I don't see why it's so important to make any such distinction; it is not common knowledge how many moons there are in the solar system and there are no mnemonics AFAIK that attempt to list all of them.
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Old 22-September-2005, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by umop ap!sdn

But honestly, I don't see why it's so important to make any such distinction; it is not common knowledge how many moons there are in the solar system and there are no mnemonics AFAIK that attempt to list all of them.
Too many to remember!

Maybe you could use the term "minor-moon" or "minor-satellite" for sub-moons.

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Old 22-September-2005, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umop ap!sdn
Perhaps a moon could be required to meet any 2 of the following criteria:

- Tidal locked to planet
- Circular, prograde orbit
- Spherical
- More than a certain threshhold size or mass

But honestly, I don't see why it's so important to make any such distinction; it is not common knowledge how many moons there are in the solar system and there are no mnemonics AFAIK that attempt to list all of them.
Won't work. Every planet (and the Sun) meets the last two criteria. Why the focus on a prograde orbit, by the way? Is there a reason retrograde orbits wouldn't count?

I guess anything orbiting a planet or an asteroid or a KBO is nowadays called a moon (if it's not a ring), and the only way to stop the addition of more ones is perhaps to get a minimum size (mass), either absolute or relative to the parent.
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Old 22-September-2005, 12:27 PM
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How bout any object that orbits a body that the body orbits a star.

Also spilt the moon term into moon and moonlets. This is siiliar to planets and planetiods.

Moons will be go from some type of size limit and spherical. While moonlets will be anything under that size and not spherical.
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Old 22-September-2005, 08:17 PM
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On another forum we got into a discussion about the defining difference between a planet-moon system and a double planet system. We wound up deciding that center of gravity might be as good an indicator as any. If it's below the surface of one object, then you've got a planet-moon system. If it's between the two then you've got a double planet.
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Old 22-September-2005, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champion_Munch
Too many to remember!
Still not a problem. Personally, I only bother to remember Moon; Phobos, Deimos; the 4 Galileans; MET DR THIP; MAUTO; Triton, Nereid, and Charon, and look up the others when I need to.

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Originally Posted by Fram
Won't work. Every planet (and the Sun) meets the last two criteria.
Well, it'd have to orbit something other than the Sun to count in the first place. But even still, those criteria would exclude Phoebe.

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Why the focus on a prograde orbit, by the way? Is there a reason retrograde orbits wouldn't count?
Well, it was suggested in the OP, but since all retrograde really amounts to is inclination > 90°, it's perfectly reasonable to allow retrograde orbits I suppose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddad
We wound up deciding that center of gravity might be as good an indicator as any.
I guess not only is Pluto's historical status as a planet being taken away, but so is Charon's as a moon.
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Last edited by umop ap!sdn; 22-September-2005 at 09:48 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 22-September-2005, 09:52 PM
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Any definition needs to exclude the objects in Saturn's rings, else there's an awful lot of naming to do.
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Old 22-September-2005, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ToSeek
Any definition needs to exclude the objects in Saturn's rings, else there's an awful lot of naming to do.
What about shepard moons?
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Old 22-September-2005, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToSeek
Any definition needs to exclude the objects in Saturn's rings, else there's an awful lot of naming to do.
Alternatively, you could define that objects that are closer to each other than a given distance (1 meter, 10 meters) should not to be considered as separate astronomical entities. Rings around planets would be defined as... rings!
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Old 22-September-2005, 11:32 PM
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When it comes to naming some common sense should be used. If object are ~10m or less or even under an km, they really should not be named. Especially rings.

If naming everything we came upon maybe we should also name all the trash that is circling around our planet?
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Old 22-September-2005, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vhear
When it comes to naming some common sense should be used. If object are ~10m or less or even under an km, they really should not be named. Especially rings.
Yes, I would agree with you. Notwithstanding, Saturn rings are "named" (G, F, A, B, and C).
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Old 23-September-2005, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argos
Yes, I would agree with you. Notwithstanding, Saturn rings are "named" (G, F, A, B, and C).
Yep they are named, but they're for whole sections of the rings which are different by composition, density and other things. Naming sections of rings is not that bad. But naming every little thing that is I really dont' know what to say.
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Old 23-September-2005, 12:13 AM
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You are right. Meaningless things shouldn´t be named.
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Old 23-September-2005, 01:12 AM
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I've always felt anything too small to have a spherical shape should not be a called a moon. Moonlets works for me.
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Old 23-September-2005, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodler
What about shepard moons?
The problem with that is, how small do shepard moons get? 5km? 1km? There could be thousands in amongst those rings. Go down to a couple of hundred metres and we suddenly have millions of moons...(OK, maybe not that many :P)

Quote:
Still not a problem. Personally, I only bother to remember Moon; Phobos, Deimos; the 4 Galileans; MET DR THIP; MAUTO; Triton, Nereid, and Charon, and look up the others when I need to.
I used to know all the names...but I gave up after it got over 100.

Quote:
On another forum we got into a discussion about the defining difference between a planet-moon system and a double planet system. We wound up deciding that center of gravity might be as good an indicator as any. If it's below the surface of one object, then you've got a planet-moon system. If it's between the two then you've got a double planet.
That's interesting. So, using that current definition we would have 10 planets in the solar system? :P

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I've always felt anything too small to have a spherical shape should not be a called a moon. Moonlets works for me.
There's only about a dozen moons that actually fit that criteria! And then you start straying into the territory of people who claim that large moons should be considered planets as well. :S

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Old 23-September-2005, 01:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddad
On another forum we got into a discussion about the defining difference between a planet-moon system and a double planet system. We wound up deciding that center of gravity might be as good an indicator as any. If it's below the surface of one object, then you've got a planet-moon system. If it's between the two then you've got a double planet.
It is possible, given a sufficiently eccentric orbit, for the center of gravity to be above the surface at some times, and below the surface at other times. Whether this actually occurs, I don't know...
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Old 23-September-2005, 03:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champion_Munch



There's only about a dozen moons that actually fit that criteria! And then you start straying into the territory of people who claim that large moons should be considered planets as well. :S

It works out to a radius of about 170 km and there are 20 such Moons including the Earth's. That works for me. Everything smaller than that is debris.
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Old 23-September-2005, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgruss23
It works out to a radius of about 170 km and there are 20 such Moons including the Earth's. That works for me. Everything smaller than that is debris.
170km? I'm sure it's much, much higher than that (didn't they say that if Enceladus wasn't composed of ice [or whatever] then it wouldn't be round? It's 500km in diameter, if I recall right).

Well, I'll run through the list of 'rounded moons:'

[Earth's] Moon
Io
Europa
Ganymede
Callisto
Enceladus
Tethys
Dione
Rhea
Titan
Iapetus (?)
Ariel
Umbriel
Titania
Oberon
Triton

OK, so that's a little more than a dozen...Mimas aint fully rounded, neither is Janus, Phoebe, Hyperion, Puck, Miranda, Proteus, or Nereid. I'm not sure whether Iapetus is fully rounded, strange moon that one...

All of those moons are over 170km, but most of them aren't even nearly circular.

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