Chatroom
 

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum > Space and Astronomy > Astronomy
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

   

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-November-2005, 12:41 PM
quanta quanta is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 65
Default Tolman test for expansion

I'm interested in this test for real expansion, but I'm unsure how the surface brightness falls off as (1+z)^4.
Most of the literature I've come across deals with the practical problems associated with measuring the actual surface brightness, but not how the above relationship is derived.
Can someone explain (for an interested layperson) how this relationship is derived or a reference to a site that deals with the basics of the Tolman test.
__________________
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 12-November-2005, 03:22 PM
Ken G's Avatar
Ken G Ken G is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,541
Default

There was another recent thread where this came up. As I recall, the explanation for the 4 powers of 1+z has to do with the fact that 1+z is both the factor that space has been stretched by, and the factor that clocks have sped up since then. So you get 2 powers of 1+z by virtue of the extra distance the light has had to travel (and the brightness scales like two powers of 1/r, since it's related to the surface over which the energy is shared), and two powers by virtue of how the sense of time has changed. Note that time appears twice, for reasons that are kind of subtle. The first power is easy, because Tolman brightness refers to energy absorbed in a given time interval, and as time speeds up with the age of the universe, this means you have less time to absorb what we mean by 1 second worth of energy. The last power comes in because Tolman brightness is defined in terms of per wavelength interval, and the fact that time is speeding up implies the wavelengths are stretching. Thus you need a wider wavelength interval to catch the same amount of energy. Note that if Tolman had used per frequency bin instead of per wavelength bin, the two powers of 1+z that relate to time would have cancelled each other.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 13-November-2005, 12:47 AM
quanta quanta is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 65
Default

Thanks Ken G.


Here's a snip from:
"THE TOLMAN SURFACE BRIGHTNESS TEST FOR THE REALITY OF THE EXPANSION. I." by Sandage and Lubin

"Tolman (1930, 1934) derived the remarkable result that, in an expanding universe with any arbitrary geometry, the surface brightness of a set of "standard" (identical) objects will decrease by (1 + z)4. One factor of (1 + z) comes from the decrease in the energy of each photon due to the redshift. The second factor comes from the decrease in the number flux per unit time. Two additional factors of (1 + z) come from the apparent increase of area due to aberration."

The part I don't understand is the two additional factors from the apparent increase in area due to aberration.
You cover the redshift and time dilation contributions, but have you included (in your own words) the effect due to aberration and what do they mean by this?
__________________
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 13-November-2005, 02:59 AM
Ken G's Avatar
Ken G Ken G is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,541
Default

I think aberration here is another way to say that the flux is spread over a larger area, due to the expansion, i.e., the inverse-square effect in another form. The latter way takes the point of view of the photons, the former, the point of view of the observer. I think you'd really only call it aberration if it was a bound system doing the emitting, so that it doesn't take part in the expansion and ends up looking much larger than it actually is. If it looks larger, it has to be less bright to compensate, for a fixed total energy flux.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 15-November-2005, 02:25 PM
John Kierein John Kierein is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,851
Default

Here's a paper on the subject that shows that the universe is not expanding.

http://photoman.bizland.com/bbnh/lernerpaper4.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 16-November-2005, 07:01 AM
quanta quanta is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 65
Default

"If it looks larger, it has to be less bright to compensate, for a fixed total energy flux."

Now this is where I'm confused.
I understand that the surface brightness remains conserved in Euclidean cosmology and falls off as (1+z) in a non-expanding universe with a redshift mechanism, but still can't understand why any emitter would actually look larger- be it an expanding universe or not.
Thanks Ken


"Here's a paper on the subject that shows that the universe is not expanding"

Thanks John. Only just had an opportunity to look at the paper, but it appears to be both relevant and interesting.
__________________
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 16-November-2005, 08:58 AM
Ken G's Avatar
Ken G Ken G is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,541
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by quanta
I understand that the surface brightness remains conserved in Euclidean cosmology and falls off as (1+z) in a non-expanding universe with a redshift mechanism...
Actually, it would be (1+z)^2 for a redshift mechanism that conserved
photon number. One power of 1+z is from the loss in energy, and the other is from the mapping of the energy into wider wavelength bins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quanta
...but still can't understand why any emitter would actually look larger- be it an expanding universe or not.
It would look larger relative to a similar object at a similar distance as the photons have travelled. Maybe it's better to think of it as looking the same size, but having lower integrated flux because the light gets spread out by the expansion. Diluted, if you will.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 17-November-2005, 05:31 PM
Spaceman Spiff's Avatar
Spaceman Spiff Spaceman Spiff is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Somewhere beneath Lake Michigan
Posts: 809
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by quanta
but still can't understand why any emitter would actually look larger- be it an expanding universe or not.
Because at sufficiently large redshift (z > 1.6 or so depending on the cosmological expansion parameters) the light we observe NOW left at a time sufficiently long ago that the galaxy in question was closer to us THEN than a galaxy at a lower redshift. At very low redshifts, the angular size vs. "distance" is about what you expect, but it eventually deviates at larger z and then turns around because we are looking so far back in time that all galaxies were closer together. So for galaxies of a fixed physical size, their angular sizes at first diminish with increasing redshift, reach a minimum and then become greater at greater redshift. The relationship of angular size vs. redshift is demonstrated at the bottom of this bunch of links of mine, and also here.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 18-November-2005, 09:15 PM
ExpErdMann ExpErdMann is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,208
Default

I'd be curious to know what current tests are showing relative to which is correct, the Big Bang model or the static model. Since Spaceman Spiff indicates a discontinuity at z > 1.5 or so, I would be most interested in results at lower z's than that.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 19-November-2005, 12:15 PM
quanta quanta is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 65
Default

Quote:
As posted by Spaceman Spiff
Because at sufficiently large redshift (z > 1.6 or so depending on the cosmological expansion parameters) the light we observe NOW left at a time sufficiently long ago that the galaxy in question was closer to us THEN than a galaxy at a lower redshift.............
Yes, that makes sense.
Also, your second reference -section on "Angular Diameter Distance" helped me understand.
I found it a difficult concept to grasp that the 'space' between an emitter and receiver is still expanding while the photon is traveling between them.
__________________
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 23-January-2006, 06:45 PM
Jerry's Avatar
Jerry Jerry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 3,749
Default

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0210/0210394.pdf

"This short pedagogical paper provides definitions of and equations for the K correction" - David Hogg
__________________
jwj

It's ok not to know. We should try harder to find out.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT. The time now is 05:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.0.0
©  2006 Bad Astronomy and Universe Today