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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 12-October-2006, 01:28 AM
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Apophis will make another relatively close approach in 2012-2013. At that point (if not sooner), they should be able to forcecast whether it has ANY chance of hitting the keyhole. If they cannot rule the possibility out at that point, NASA has talked of sending of probe to land on Apophis to continuously transmit its location. That should mean that well before 2029 we should know if Apophis will hit the keyhole and divert it BEFORE 2029 to prevent it from going through the keyhole.

At present, Apophis between the Sun and Earth, making it very difficult to track. Its orbit is very similar to Earth's and it travels only slightly faster (the orbit is also more elliptical than Earth's).
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 19-February-2007, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Eckelston View Post
One more comment about this one. Imagine you're on the motorway driving at 180 kilometers hour. Suddenly your car hits a fly. Would you expect your car to go off the motorway and hit a house 500 meters off the motorway directly to your right? Well, I wouldn't. Even if you hit something bigger, a deer for example and the car slid off the road, I'd still be safe in the house becouse the car would continue to go forward thus missing the house. And no we don't have anything comparable to that in high orbit.
What about the moon? It's big and dense enough to crash into the moon and alter it's course, possibly resulting in a bigger disaster if the Earth is in the way of its altered course, this would also be very unlikely but probably wouldn't global destruction due to lack of velocity. The only concern i have with the moons part in all this is that its gravity may swing the asteroid into the Earth whilst increasing its velosity.
Suppose the moon was so obvious that it didn't cross your mind.
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Old 19-February-2007, 10:33 AM
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Mass of Apophis = 2×10^10 kg
Mass of Moon = 7.383 × 10^22 kg
Thus the mass of the Moon is on the order of 4 trillion times that of the asteroid. Orders of magnitude greater than the difference between a fully loaded semi and a mosquito. Apophis is not nearly big enough to significantly alter the orbit of the Moon, but it would be a pretty good light show.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 19-February-2007, 06:08 PM
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But note that there's no need to worry about it hitting the Moon, because it has to be at least 20 times more likely to hit the Earth, and that would be something we'd care a lot more about anyway! (Question: what is the "keyhole", and is this a real idea or a make believe one?)
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Old 19-February-2007, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken G View Post
...Question: what is the "keyhole", and is this a real idea or a make believe one?...
"Keyhole" has referred to a target region in space at least since Apollo. In that case hitting the keyhole at a certain distance from earth meant the reentry trajectory would intercept the earth's atmosphere at the correct angle for safe return. Don't know if the term was used in a space navigation context before then. It's also been used to describe the target region required for an unmanned probe to execute a maneuver, say a planetary flyby.

The trajectory of all bodies in space is perturbed by effects sunlight, radiation, outgassing, other bodies, etc. Those affects can be quantified to a fairly high degree, depending on how much data is available.

After all those effects are calculated to the available accuracy, there remains an uncertainty since we don't have absolute accuracy in measurement or perfect data about the deep space environment or the object. I think the term is "trajectory dispersions".

I think "keyhole" refers to a 2D region in the trajectory path which if intersected would result in the object hitting a certain target, even if the normal perturbations -- all dispersions -- happened.

I think the keyhole size varies depending on object distance from target. The farther away from target, the larger the keyhole is. In this sense, there's not one keyhole, but many, depending on the distance to target.

The keyhole also isn't a fixed size based on physical laws, but a navigation construct based on available data. IOW higher accuracy data (more observations, better software, etc) could shrink the size of a keyhole, even though nothing physical changed in space or the body.

Don't know what the etymology is -- whether the physical region has a keyhole shape if plotted or if it simply came from "looking through a keyhole" as defining a narrow trajectory angle.

If someone has more information, please correct me.
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Old 19-February-2007, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
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Don't know what the etymology is -- whether the physical region has a keyhole shape if plotted or if it simply came from "looking through a keyhole" as defining a narrow trajectory angle.
I think it´s just a metaphor for a hole. this article says it is only 2,000 ft in diameter.
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Old 19-February-2007, 10:48 PM
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I was just checking today on the list of close approaches and now both 2032 and 2036 are at Torino 0. New calculations made in the last weeks?
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 19-February-2007, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joema View Post
I think the keyhole size varies depending on object distance from target. The farther away from target, the larger the keyhole is. In this sense, there's not one keyhole, but many, depending on the distance to target.hrough a keyhole" as defining a narrow trajectory angle.
Wouldn't the keyhole have to be smaller the farther away from the target, not larger?

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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 20-February-2007, 01:37 AM
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If NASA eventually does get the nod -- and more important, the budget -- from Congress, the obvious first move would be a reconnaissance mission to Apophis. Schweickart estimates that "even gold-plated at JPL," a transponder-equipped gravity tractor could be launched for $250 million.
Ironically, that's almost precisely the cost of making the cosmic-collision movies Armageddon and Deep Impact. If Hollywood can pony up a quarter of a billion in the name of defending our planet, why can't Congress?
Sure shows where our priorities are as a nation...
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Old 20-February-2007, 04:36 AM
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Wouldn't the keyhole have to be smaller the farther away from the target, not larger?
clop
Yes, I got it backward. Thanks for the correction.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 20-February-2007, 08:00 AM
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...and we spend half of NASA's annual budget in Iraq every month!
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Old 20-February-2007, 08:14 AM
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Anyone know how close Apophis will get in 2013 and 2021? Also, what magnitude will it reach during those approaches?
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 20-February-2007, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtilque View Post
Anyone know how close Apophis will get in 2013 and 2021? Also, what magnitude will it reach during those approaches?
In 2013, 14.5 Gm in January and 36.4 Gm in July.
In 2021, 16.9 Gm
don't know the magnitudes.

edit: actually, I found them. Put the mag from JPL in my Solex9.0.
15.5 for the January 2013 approach, and 15.4 in 2021

Last edited by Dana_Mix; 13-August-2009 at 03:45 AM.. Reason: spelling
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 20-February-2007, 06:45 PM
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Hum,
if you do a forum search for "Apophis" or "2004 MN4" or "Killer asteroid" , "not again" or "death from the sky" etc, there will be no doubt a predicted forecast; but, i would guess that it would be visible to the naked eye as a mag 3 - 4 moving star during the 2029 encounter, (and in the worst case scenario as a growing ball of light brighter than the sun).
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