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Old 11-January-2008, 02:24 PM
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Default What generation of stars do we presently have?

I’m having a difficult time explaining this but I’m curious as to how many generations of stars have gone by since the first stars ignited (alit) in our galaxy. I know that the very first stars were very large and burned pure hydrogen (population 3 stars - as this was all there was at this time), I also know that they didn’t last very long. I’ve heard figures varying from a million to 10 million years. Then came the more familiar stars from these.

Now if we averaged out the general life span of the total population of stars within the Milky Way throughout its entire history thus far how many generations would that be or would that be impossible to calculate? I know about population 3, 2 and 1 stars but this doesn’t mean that these are first, second and third physical generations (with the obvious exception of population 3 stars).
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Old 11-January-2008, 03:05 PM
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I don't know if it's a matter of age, but more a matter of size.
Aren't there still population 1 stars being made?

The difference is the big ones burn hot and burn fast.
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Old 11-January-2008, 03:09 PM
grant hutchison grant hutchison is offline
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I think it would be difficult to say what a "generation" of stars is. Stars are forming continuously, at different rates in different places and at different times, from a medium that is variably enriched by material from previous stars. The also have very different lifespans, so that red dwarfs still around today could be as old as the galaxy.
So we can't really count backwards from present stars to their "parents" and "grandparents" and come up with a consistent number.

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Old 11-January-2008, 04:20 PM
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Aren't there still population 1 stars being made?
  • Population III - The hypothetical first stars of the universe that consisted of only the atoms produced in the Big Bang (hydrogen, helium, tiny amounts of lithium). It is believed that they were far more massive than the stars that formed later (the lack of heavier elements made that possible).
  • Population II - The old stars in elliptical galaxies, spiral galaxy bulges and thick disks, and in globular clusters. They usually have less heavy elements than younger stars. Old stars such as the Barnard's star are Population II stars.
  • Population I - The stars in spiral galaxy thin disks and elsewhere where new stars are born. Population I stars consist of material recycled several times. Our Sun is an example of a Population I star as are all stars still forming.
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Old 11-January-2008, 04:36 PM
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I don't know if it's a matter of age, but more a matter of size.

The difference is the big ones burn hot and burn fast.
Mass. The lifespan of a star is determined primarily by its mass. Stars spend most of their time in the main sequence. You can calculate the lifetime crudely by using the simple formula
Code:
t = 1010 years * (MSun/Mstar)2.5
The Sun spends in the main sequence about 10 billion years. A 10 MSun star only about 30 million years, and 0.1 MSun star 3 trillion years.
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Old 11-January-2008, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Kullat Nunu;The Sun spends in the main sequence about 10 billion years. A 10 M[sub
Sun[/sub] star only about 30 million years, and 0.1 MSun star 3 trillion years.
So then I'm guessing that you'd first need to figure out the average stellar mass in our galaxy.
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Old 11-January-2008, 04:46 PM
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Population III...
as are all stars still forming.
Thanks; I know I've heard the distinctions, but I can never remember because it sounds backwards to me.
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Originally Posted by Kullat Nunu View Post
Mass.
Yes; I was using size in a more general sense than just dimensions...but, I can see how that can be misleading.
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Old 11-January-2008, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Augustus Vox View Post

Now if we averaged out the general life span of the total population of stars within the Milky Way throughout its entire history thus far how many generations would that be or would that be impossible to calculate? I know about population 3, 2 and 1 stars but this doesn’t mean that these are first, second and third physical generations (with the obvious exception of population 3 stars).
There's no linear answer to this question, because the big--indeed, the only--factor that matters is stellar mass. Many, many generations of massive stars have come and gone since the Milky Way formed, while low-mass stars from the early universe are still on the main sequence, and will remain so in the future for a far longer time than has elapsed since the Big Bang.

Even averaging the lifespan of stars doesn't help much. For instance, we know for a fact that most stars in the Milky Way are low-mass orange and red dwarfs. However, there is no single generation of these stars; as aforementioned, low-mass stars that are billions of years old coexist with those that have formed recently, and are still forming today. None has aged and died yet.

In any event, all we can say for sure is that the stars that are forming today are the heirs of many massive stars that have come and gone before them.
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Old 12-January-2008, 12:50 AM
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Could there be a Population 0 star that has half or more of its mass in the form of heavier elements than lithium? Not in existence now, of course, but in the future--and how far in the future would it be?
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Old 12-January-2008, 10:26 PM
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Could there be a Population 0 star that has half or more of its mass in the form of heavier elements than lithium? Not in existence now, of course, but in the future--and how far in the future would it be?
Well, we do have a substantial if inconspicuous population of stars made almost completely of heavy elements today - but white dwarfs just don't seem to have the panache of their actively fusing precursors. (Ducks and covers).
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Old 13-January-2008, 07:22 PM
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There's no linear answer to this question, because the big--indeed, the only--factor that matters is stellar mass. Many, many generations of massive stars have come and gone since the Milky Way formed, while low-mass stars from the early universe are still on the main sequence, and will remain so in the future for a far longer time than has elapsed since the Big Bang.

Even averaging the lifespan of stars doesn't help much. For instance, we know for a fact that most stars in the Milky Way are low-mass orange and red dwarfs. However, there is no single generation of these stars; as aforementioned, low-mass stars that are billions of years old coexist with those that have formed recently, and are still forming today. None has aged and died yet.

In any event, all we can say for sure is that the stars that are forming today are the heirs of many massive stars that have come and gone before them.
(emphasis added)

Stars in binaries (or more) add an extra complication ... those sufficiently close may evolve in ways quite different from their quite isolated relatives, so some red dwarfs have (prematurely) aged and died already. One of the open questions in astronomy is what proportion of all stars will evolve significantly differently than those whose lives are lived in complete isolation.

And some stars in globular clusters (GC) may collide, leading to even more dramatic differences in evolutionary history (there are, of course, very few such stars, compared with the total number in a GC).
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Old 13-January-2008, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
Thanks; I know I've heard the distinctions, but I can never remember because it sounds backwards to me.

Yes; I was using size in a more general sense than just dimensions...but, I can see how that can be misleading.
Population III stars were proposed when it was realized there is so much recycled material in the current population, and very early evolution of heavy metals is necessary to explain the high metal content in the most distant quasars.

As a science, astronomy has never proven adept at reasonable naming conventions, preferring to cling to historical development. Why make it easier when there is so much to learn?
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Old 14-January-2008, 03:29 AM
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Population III stars were proposed when it was realized there is so much recycled material in the current population, and very early evolution of heavy metals is necessary to explain the high metal content in the most distant quasars.

As a science, astronomy has never proven adept at reasonable naming conventions, preferring to cling to historical development. Why make it easier when there is so much to learn?
(On the first statement, I'll comment only that attribution of motive is always a very slippery thing; models of very-low-metallicity supermassive stars significantly predate the discovery, much less metallicity estimates, of quasars certainly at z>3).)

Well, we always learn things in historical order. How often should we rename them to keep them easy to learn, thereby necessitating translation tables for much of the literature? This is a serious question. At least we have the vanity that the Sun is a Pop I star and the sequence is monotonic in time. For supernovae, types I and II mostly run opposite the stellar population designations they are usually found in. "Planetary nebulae" - entrenched but downright misleading. "Dwarf stars" being quite different from white dwarfs (and I certainly don't go along with "dwarf" not being a modifier for "planet"). Come to think of it, greenhouses are warm mostly for reasons different than the atmospheric greenhouse effect. I have noticed that some introductory textbooks have promulgated a broad division of supernovae into white-dwarf and core-collapse types, thereby relieving students of the need to remember which Roman numeral is which, and this usage seems to be creeping into other literature as well.

(And we don't have it al that bad. Paleontologists, now, in my observation they spend as much of their time arguing about nomenclature as biology. By their own rules they've tossed out such excellent names as Brontosaurus and Eohippus in favor or Apatosaurus and Hyracotherium on the grounds of priority of naming based on material too fragmentary to be very revealing. Say - I just noticed that the spell checker for posts knows the first two but not the latter ones!)
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Old 14-January-2008, 11:43 AM
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Actually, the Apatosaurus type specimen wasn't all that bad, and certainly more revealing than the types of many dinosaur genera. However, it was also juvenile, which wasn't realized at the time, and some of the differences that Marsh - the describer of both Apatosaurus and Brontosaurus - used to justify a separate genus for the later turned out to be simply juvenile-adult (ontogenetic) differences. Since this was realized, palaeontologists have almost universally felt that the two species are too similar to merit distinction on the generic level.

But back to astronomy.
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Old 14-January-2008, 04:28 PM
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Star generations are like people generations, except the generations of stars are even more staggered. Most of the first generation class M stars and class K stars that formed about 13 billion years ago, still are on main sequence. Some class O stars (the brightest) are on 20th generation, as they have only a few million years before they become black holes. Neil

Last edited by neilzero; 14-January-2008 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 16-January-2008, 01:28 AM
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With these type O stars, are there Population III, II and I O stars? Is it possible to say at what age these stars form in each population category?
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