Chatroom
 

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum > Space and Astronomy > Astronomy
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 28-February-2008, 10:17 AM
rczmiller rczmiller is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 22
Default Is the inside of a Black Hole not black?

I was listening to the audio book of "Death by Black Hole" by Neil deGrasse Tyson on my way into work yesterday and I came up with this question: Is the inside of a Black Hole not black? Here is my thought process behind the question and I would be interested in hearing if this was possible.

At the event horizon of a black hole, the gravitational forces exceed that of the speed of light so that light can not escape. However, I read that a black hole is an example of a Singularity with all of its mass located at one point in space. According to Newton's gravity equation, the gravitational forces created by a sphere can be calculated “as if” all of the sphere's mass is located at the center of the sphere. The Shell Theory states that if each layer of a sphere has a consistent distribution of mass, then as one travels in side the sphere the layers (Shells) further away from the center point from your distance can be ignored in calculating the gravitational forces created by the sphere at that point.

Example: If you assume a uniform density of mass for the Earth for discussion purposes, at ½ the radius of the Earth the gravitational forces are ½ that of at the surface of the Earth. This is because the distance has been cut in half, but the volume for a sphere at ½ the radius is 1/8 the total.

So, it is possible for a region in space to have enough matter to create a black hole effect with matter distributed throughout the region. But if the gravity were so high, wouldn't all the matter collapse into a singularity? One item to I would like to ask is wouldn’t the fact that time is also warped in a gravitational field that should be taken in consideration? It is my understanding that inside a gravitational field that is strong enough to prevent light from escaping would also warp time to slow down until it stops. If time nearly stops inside this large gravitational field, the movement of matter to the center point would also nearly stop or it would exceed the speed of light.

In this scenario, would it be possible for the gravitational forces inside a black hole region to be less inside the region than at the event horizon to the point that it is not greater than the speed of light? In this case, we could never see into the region, but light/space/time could exist.

Just a thought – I would be interested in reading any comments. Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 28-February-2008, 11:33 AM
AndreasJ's Avatar
AndreasJ AndreasJ is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Linköping, Sweden
Posts: 253
Send a message via ICQ to AndreasJ Send a message via Skype™ to AndreasJ
Default

Assuming that general relativity holds inside a black hole, the singularity theorems of Hawkings and Penrose show that once you have an event horizon a singularity inevitably follows in any physically plausible case.

However, the apperance of a singularity tends to indicate that the theory doesn't hold, so what really happens inside a black hole is, if not anyone's guess, at least an open question.
__________________
The other Shaltanac's joopleberry shrub is always a more mauve-y shade of pinky russet
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 28-February-2008, 07:07 PM
tracer tracer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Silicon Valley, CA, USA
Posts: 2,083
Default

You know how the Buddhists say, "If a tree falls in the woods when no one is around to hear it, would it make a sound?" ?

Well, the same holds true for conditions inside a black hole.

Ain't no way anybody's gonna survive being there long enough to notice anything.
__________________
The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 29-February-2008, 04:02 AM
ravens_cry's Avatar
ravens_cry ravens_cry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,114
Default

Ain't no way anybody would survive a diving head first into the sun to look at the core, yet we try to work out something. As for the inside of the black, I think it wouldn't be black, because of all the photons it has sucked in. But that is my guess.
__________________
"The Internet is really, really great..."
Avenue Q

"And a disintegrator beam. People listen when you have a disintegrator beam."
mike alexander
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 29-February-2008, 10:14 AM
AndreasJ's Avatar
AndreasJ AndreasJ is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Linköping, Sweden
Posts: 253
Send a message via ICQ to AndreasJ Send a message via Skype™ to AndreasJ
Default

If a black hole is sufficiently big, you should be able to survive for some considerable span of time after crossing the event horizon, certainly more than enough to notice a few things.
__________________
The other Shaltanac's joopleberry shrub is always a more mauve-y shade of pinky russet
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 29-February-2008, 10:35 AM
Disinfo Agent Disinfo Agent is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,246
Default

I think you'll find the answer to the original question at John Baez' Usenet Physics FAQ and Ten Bunn's Black Hole FAQ.

No, the inside of a black hole is not black. It's pretty much like being in ordinary space. You would see the stars shining outside. Until you hit the singularity, at least.
__________________
"All your bias are belong to us." Ara Pacis
"A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 29-February-2008, 01:23 PM
GOURDHEAD GOURDHEAD is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,151
Default

Objects that are outside the black hole viewed from inside might be affected by the alleged Lens-Thirring effect associated with "spining" black holes as well as any variations in isotropy.
__________________
For those inclined to oppose human meddling with the structure of the universe or the composition and configuration of objects and groups of objects within the universe, consider:
Whether there is a limit to the magnitude of a modulation of chaos below which order remains invariant? Or, is order but a fiction invented by perspectives applied over finite, however large, time intervals?
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 29-February-2008, 05:36 PM
tdvance's Avatar
tdvance tdvance is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Bowie, MD
Posts: 1,598
Default

you might also see two, three, infinity copies of stars from all the gravitational distortion as well. You will also see a looming black mass in the field of view, continually expanding and pushing the starlight into smaller and smaller space. And that singularity is in your future--if you try to accelerate away from it, in that strange bent-up space you are actually shortening the time it takes to get there--the slowest descent is free fall. This is from "Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein's Outrageous Legacy" by Kip Thorne, which I recommend.
__________________
-----
Todd (Bowie, MD, US, North America, Earth, Sol System, Vega region, Local Bubble, Orion arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Virgo A Cluster, Virgo supercluster, the universe in which spock is clean shaven)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

personal page: http://blog.astrosketches.info
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 29-February-2008, 05:49 PM
Noclevername's Avatar
Noclevername Noclevername is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 10,663
Default

Since no light can escape, I'm sure it all builds up inside. So just within the Event horizon would be pretty bright, with all that "hoarded" unescaped light. Not that anyone will ever see it.
__________________
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
Illuminati's Razor-The most complicatedly evil answer is usually the most correct answer. - Fazor
"Every book is a children's book if the kid can read." - Mitch Hedberg
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 29-February-2008, 07:29 PM
Cougar's Avatar
Cougar Cougar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 3,884
Default

What's it like inside a white dwarf? It is unimaginably dense with matter. How about a neutron star? Unimaginable6! I would guess that light isn't going to travel very far before hitting something and being re-emitted. A natural* black hole has to be the next step in the progression. It's got to be unimaginably dense to the ? power, and I kinda doubt this question really has any meaning.

* Yes, I've read about very large black holes with the density of water where crossing the event horizon would just require some scuba gear. But are these just possible mathematical solutions? I can't imagine such a configuration would be at all stable. Black holes are matter crushed beyond our comprehension - indeed, beyond all known physics.
__________________
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 01-March-2008, 12:54 AM
Byrd's Avatar
Byrd Byrd is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 423
Default

Interesting question -- couldn't answer it myself, but I'd like to offer this thought: I think part of the answer lies in "what part of the spectrum do you view"? Radiation escapes black holes (or at least the edges), but it may not be visible radiation.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 01-March-2008, 12:57 AM
KaiYeves's Avatar
KaiYeves KaiYeves is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Currently on assignment on planet shown in avatar photo
Posts: 7,128
Default

Tell your worst enemy to go find out.
__________________
Rovers forever! - ToSeek
"Carl Sagan sent a message to ET,
Neil Armstrong walked in the Sea of Tranquility
Steve Squyers built Spirit and Opportunity
Dan Haylen upchucked in zero gravity." -Brent Simon, The Space Camp Song
'Evolution and science are one thing, but you don’t mess with Yoko Ono. Everybody knows that. ' - 386sx
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 01-March-2008, 01:22 AM
ASEI's Avatar
ASEI ASEI is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,365
Default

My impression was that the whole history of the universe would pretty much elapse before you hit the event horizon. Not sure how you would see stars shining outside the blackhole from inside it then (or even what effect an infinite blueshift and intensifying of all the incoming energy would have on you).
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 03-March-2008, 03:37 AM
novaderrik novaderrik is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Ashby, MN, USA
Posts: 2,327
Default

i would think that after you crossed the event horizon, if you looked out, everything would be the most intense shade of white, and if you looked directly in towards the middle, it would be blacker than the blackest black, times infinity..
__________________
"blacker than the blackest black... times infinity."- Nathan Explosion
The.. Best.. Thread..Ever...
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Solution for the Black Hole Information Paradox? Fraser Universe Today Story Comments 23 07-June-2007 05:46 AM
What is inside a Black Hole ? czeslaw Against the Mainstream 65 23-March-2007 09:09 PM
The Birth Of A Galaxy RussT Against the Mainstream 76 28-November-2006 02:58 PM
Can material actually reach the event horizon? Astrowannabe Questions and Answers 26 22-February-2006 02:15 PM
a question about Hawking radiation Michael777 Against the Mainstream 14 27-July-2004 03:56 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.0.0
©  2006 Bad Astronomy and Universe Today