I placed this thread here since it is astronomers I want to reach. Some of you are taking a risk that you do not have the right to take. Some astronomers through ignorance or hubris are deciding for the whole planet that its ok to shout out to the universe at large that we are here on earth.

Repeatedly, messages of various kinds, anything from words of friendship through to Beatles music have been sent to targets nearby in the hope of contacting ET. This MIGHT be a very, very bad idea.

I realise that even those who sent them didn't really think that they would contact anyone out there. I realise that the chances of communication (even if only one-way) are very slim. Further, that there is some reason to hope that if there _are_ ETs, they are not hostile... maybe even friendly.

But there is no certainty that ETs have the best of intentions. Do you have the right to bet Earth's future on it?

Please let me lay out what I am _not_ saying....

I am not saying that it is likely that there is life elsewhere.
I am not saying that it is likely that life elsewhere is intelligent.
I am not saying that it would be bad for our psyche to meet smarter beings.
I am not saying that they would want our women, our land, our water, or to anal probe us.
I am not saying that conflict with the OTHER is inevitable.
I am not saying that it is likely, in a universe as vast and as empty as ours, that we are ever to find that we are not alone.

Ok... so what AM I saying?

Firstly: If there are intelligent species out there (and anyone reasonable must admit the possibility at least exists) then we have no idea at all what they might be like in terms of behaviour, drives, morals(?), or capabilities.

Secondly: That no person, or group of people, has the right to speak for all of earth on this topic.

Thirdly: That in an alien environment the best strategy is caution.

What would I like? I would like us, as a species, to lay low till we know. I would like comms to deep space probes etc to be as narrow beam as possible. I would like to see a massive increase in the SETI program. I would like high intensity military radars to be banned... (that aint gonna happen )

We are either alone in a vast universe or we are not. If we are not alone then we might never know it anyway. But if it turns out that our galaxy has space faring species already.... then it is foolish in the extreme to think that a limited understanding of game theory and some anthropomorphic generalisations about 'advanced' behaviours will be enough to predict an aliens species (or individuals) behaviour.

I am aware of the Fermi paradox, I know that statistically it is unlikely that even if intelligence arises 'locally' it is not likely to be co-existent because of the enormous time periods involved. I know that many folk think its inevitable that a space faring species would be highly intelligent (or at least technologically advanced) and therefore benign. I disagree with that premise... but it doesn't matter.

We don't know... we should go slow. Maybe the reason that we don't hear others singing out is that _they_ are smart enough not to draw the wolves. I don't know.

But I do know that once a message is noticed it is too late... whoever sent it just took the fate of the whole planet into their hands. No one has that right.

Hi, Could you provide some references please. I am only aware of the recent attempt with the Beatles song and one other attempt during the the 60's I think.

It will take 100 000+ years to alert the whole galaxy to alert the whole galaxy to our presence with this one signal. Why do you think this is too fast?

I totally agree WL. It's stupid to tell aliens where we are, they'll also get an idea of our intelligence and what we're capable off too.

Some aliens, surely, will be hostile, and if they know they could easily dominate us or finish us off, they could pay us a visit, for whatever intention they have.

I think it's highly irresponsible of astronomers and Nasa to send information of exactly where we are and to give hints of our intelligence (records and whatever) into space.

Or, we could employ reverse psychology. Invite them, nay .... challenge them. Any advanced alien species would employ game theory and avoid us lest they get their butts handed to them.

Could I still make phone calls please? Quite likely if intelligent life did exist then they would only come here if they thought intelligent life was resident here. I could reference the Monty Python song ... but it is something they could already have.

Second if they came it might be because we are potentially a threat ... well we are (to ourselves at least).

Thirdly they may come anyway.

Forth they may want to help (more the fools them).

Fifth it may never happen.

Based on various estimates on colony establishment using a base of 500 years to a less organised 5000 years the galaxy should be teeming with life in the 5 million year to 50 million year bracket. If anything, we do seem to be a bit late arriving on the scene. Then if they come from outside the galaxy the potential for a being that advanced to study us might be quite an experience.

Who is to say what is going to happen and if good will come out of it. It may be the last great hope we have. How far beyond shoot it first and ask questions later do you think we have come.

Last option we might create our own replacement, deliberately or accidentally and so if our time is up it is up. Until it isn't then enjoy it, cheers

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If the "targets" to which the shouts are aimed are intelligent and on a technology level that they can reach us. Then the shouts won't be neccesary they probably know that we exsist already

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I believe that you should do some homework and get the facts straight on this matter before upsetting yourself further.

Dave Mitsky

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They came, thousands of years ago and took all they wanted.......so I shouldn't worry OP.

Have we not been propagating space since the birth of the radio and television? I'm not sure on the power outage required to go really deep, so perhaps these signals break down before they get so far. Any answers to that one?

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Biologically speaking, if something bites you it's more likely to be female. Desmond Morris.

Quantum analysis is scientific dithering

Professor Frink: My observations n'hey, n'hey, show the universe could be a torus Weh, uh, or toriod it may like the typewriters and bananas and the monkeys with big teeth the biting the screaming Mm-hai!

Homer: mmmmm... doughnuts!

IIRC, the TV and radio signals we omnidirectionally broadcast into space fall below the noise level before they can even reach Proxima Centauri.

I'm curious about this exchange. Can you elaborate, Dave Mitsky?

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An interesting post, but it is no more realistic or less naive than those you are taking to task. While it is true the shouts you are referring to are more readily detectible than the ever-present whisper our technological society emits, it is very likely the latter alone would betray our presence to anyone or anything able to detect the shouts and that we should be concerned about.

There is also the fact that radio emissions are not the only artifact of our existence which betrays our presence. Even our own society with it's mediocre level of technological sophistication has the ability to detect the signs of a civilization like our own at great distance. Unless we were to have universally adopted a xenophibic, or extremely cautious, mindset on this matter far earlier in our history and taken the necessary and elaborate precautions...the genie is pretty much out of the bottle.

Then there is the reality that we as a species lack a world government, nor if we did have one, the type of psychology which would prevent an individual from taking action which did not respect the interests of the whole. It is simply not possible except through direct physical effort to ensure the silence you are lamenting does not exist. The impulse and even instinct behind these communication attempts is as unavoidable as the fear which motivates your post. Both are equally valid, and equally human.

I can certainly understand and appreciate what you are saying, but I'm afraid it can only fall on deaf ears. Your best hope may be that our shouts to the cosmos do as well.

70's. The Arecibo Message. Which I would get as a tattoo if I had more nerve.

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bring 'em on! We're ready!

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WalrusLike, you're worrying over nothing. Our galaxy is unimaginable large. Light takes decades to travel to the nearest stars. Lifting materials and people into space takes tremendous amounts of energy. Moving beyond our solar system to other stellar systems would take several magnitudes more energy. So much that we'll never see a positive energy return on energy spent.

Even a highly advanced civilization is not likely to venture outside its own solar system, other than to send a few probes as we have done. Colonizing or invading other solar systems makes no economic sense. The distances are far too vast and the energy investment too large.

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I do hope so! The thought of ET receiving deliberately sent messages is one thing, but the thought of them receiving some of the garbage churned out on TV is something else!

__________________
I don't believe in mathematics. Albert Einstein

Biologically speaking, if something bites you it's more likely to be female. Desmond Morris.

Quantum analysis is scientific dithering

Professor Frink: My observations n'hey, n'hey, show the universe could be a torus Weh, uh, or toriod it may like the typewriters and bananas and the monkeys with big teeth the biting the screaming Mm-hai!

Homer: mmmmm... doughnuts!

yea, but if movie directors knew that our entertainment industry would go flat.

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"I will do my best to understand and explain the universe from big to small without invoking miracles, unrepeatable events, or divine intervention. In place of those things I will use observations, mathematics, and science."


-Cross
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Some of my Astrophotography


Those that lack education have a hard time understanding its value. - Cross

Under what theory would broadcasting a message into space in an earnest attempt to communicate, not be an exercise of the human right of free speech?

Must one have permission from WalrusLike beforehand? Since when?

METI/Active SETI happens -- notwithstanding your personal definition of others' rights.

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Not only that, we're sending television signals constantly over antennae around the world. Oh well.

__________________
"I will do my best to understand and explain the universe from big to small without invoking miracles, unrepeatable events, or divine intervention. In place of those things I will use observations, mathematics, and science."


-Cross
My travel blog

Some of my Astrophotography


Those that lack education have a hard time understanding its value. - Cross