Forgive me if this has been ToSeek'ed and I didn't see it, but they've observed a supermassive black hole, the result of a merger, being kicked out of the host galaxy by the massive gravitational radiation recoil kick predicted by GR simulations of merger events.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...superkick.html

We've discussed this here a few times and I knew they hadn't yet observed it, but were looking. Well, they've found one now.

This should be seen as more good, but indirect, evidence for gravitational radiation, on a par with the binary pulsar inspirals.

ETA: the recoil velocity here is *amazing*. The big boy got a kick speed of ~2700 km/s. And that is one heck of a lot of radiation blasting out in the other direction, too.

This would make for a good movie plot. We learn that one of these rogue supermassive black holes is headed right for us!

ETA2: Tony, or any other gravity simulator gurus (those who know the program well enough to quickly set it up), just for fun, run a simulation of a 100 million Sol mass ripping through the solar system at oh, say, 1000 km/s. Let it come in in the plane, and then let it come perpendicular to the ecliptic. I'd just like to see what that would do.

-Richard

Supermassive Black Hole Kicked Out of Galaxy: First Ever Observation
Fraser beat ya to the punch- but that's to be expected.

We can run around in a panic fretting what we will do in a couple hundred thousand years when it arrives and the actors will be encouraged to look worried but relaxed.

There's no reason to panic ....
Even a black hole can't destroy us ...
If the black hole (1 Mio Suns ) starts at 1000AU above our heads and moves with 1000 km/s towards Sol , it will reach us in less than 2 years .
The animation herunder (Gravity Simulator ) depicts the scene as seen from "above" , during the last days of the approach .
The sun and the black hole appear in the center of the frame .
The inner planets Mercury to Mars are shown as they orbit the sun .
Due to the pull of the black hole Jupiter and Saturn are pulled inwards , later on also the inner planets are pulled towards the attractor .
At the end the BH has a relative speed of more than 50.000 km/s.
Finally the BH collides with Sol , Sol vanishes ...
Remarkably all the planets survive , but orphinized they are injected into space , drifting away from the black hole.
No 2012 scenario

Attached Images

BlackHole1MiosunsPolar.gif (74.5 KB, 26 views)

I guess Gravity simulator do not simulate the destroying of the planets from gigantic enormous tidal forces?

And you call the destruction of the Sun with planets flung outwards (I guess in reality they would be ripped apart by the tidal forces) "not 2012 scenario"?!

This Gravity simulator CANNOT simulate tidal forces or the gigantic clouds of extremely hot gas that would be heated to hundreds of million degress by the BH accreting and this applet http://xaonon.dyndns.org/hawking/ gives the radius of the event horizon as about 300 million km, so the BH would engulf all the inner Solar system!

Use your own intelligence, not only some automated programmes please next time.

Even if the planets were composed of pure indestructable unoptanium the hot gas from the remains of the Sun and then the cold of interstellar space would kill all life.

It would be trillion times worse than any "2012" woo woo.
And it would not just destroy our Solar system, I guess that entire galaxy would be ripped apart and degenerate into a cloud of rogue planetless stars and gas.
Of course any star system to that it would came would suffer the same horrifying fate as ours - half being ripped apart, half being engulfed.

You're right m1omg.
Gravity Simulator does not calculate the tidal forces of course , nor the radiation experienced by the merging of our poor Sun . But is does indeed account for the gravitational effects and generates non relativistic orbits .
The scenario would indeed be catastrophic , but ...it may not seem as our total solar system would be sucked into the BH as some "2012" guys would suggest .
Therefor the

Sorry,

I've never heard the version of 2012 pseudoscience about all the solar system sucked into a black hole, just that ordinary crackpot stuff about the Mayan calendar and brown dwarfs coming from nowhere heating Earth and coming to flip poles and destroy orbits .

I know it calculates gravity accurately on Newtonian model, but wouldn't black hole create some interesting effects because the gravity near the horizon behaves non-Newtonianly, with Einstein's relativity effects being obvious?

And could you do the model again, with the real BH (event horizon of it actually) size please?
And, also, at what velocities are the planets ejected (if they survived) and how fast it would happen?

Indeed BH give very weird gravitational fields . Please forgive me not being familiar with this highly advanced theory . I wonder who of us is capable to run such simulations ?
Orbits around black holes fi. seem not to be "closed" as they do in the Newtonian model . Weird .
Considering the black hole as a point mass , also considering Newtonian behaviour , neglecting tidal forces and radiation ,...in one word ...applying classical dynamics on the solar system the pass of a BH may look as herunder .
Ok : just for fun : starting conditions are : BH originally at 1000AU at the right , vertical offset of 10AU and initial velocity of 1000 km/s . Mass : 10^6 Solar Mass. Animation runs for ca. 10 years.
The BH reaches the solar system ( in fact the solar system reaches the BH ..) after ca. 2 years. Watch the mess the BH creates .
Due to the initial offset the BH misses the sun .
So in this scenario the sun is conserved , but looses most of it's planets .
No planet merges with the BH .
Due to the hughe accelerations Earth is no longer capable to keep its moon .
The moon is separated from Earth .
This simulation is of course only one of the millions of other posibilities , which hopefully will never occur .

Attached Images

Solarsystem1000000BHside.gif (29.1 KB, 13 views)

Now, now, everybody is missing the real point....there's an opportunity here. There are million upon millions of vertically challenged people who would like nothing better than to be a foot taller with no dieting, no anabolic steroids, no running hundreds of miles....etc.
All they need to do is sign up for our first annual pilgrimmage to the black hole. We sell tickets to Virgin Atlantic Black Hole Day...and when it's due to pass through the solar system we guarantee that when their spaceship gets within the Roche lobe....they'll get their free stretching. (It's also good for dislocations, humpback, lazy eye, crooked fingernails, and souffles that fell when Junior opened the oven door too soon....)

pete

__________________
A third rate theory forbids
A second rate theory explains after the fact
A first rate theory predicts...A. Lomonosov

I see a scam... Wouldn't it have been booked on Virgin Galactic?

__________________
Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

Don't worry. Doing the actual strong near field solutions of the solar system near that monster would be something that requires the supercomputers and talents of the numerical relativity group at the Max Planck institute.

Oh, and I forgot. The horizon of 100million Sol mass is 300 million km. That's around 2AU! So anything that comes with 2AU is certainly gone. However, the strong field where things are very non-Newtonian extends somewhat beyond that. At a minimum, I'd plug in 3 times that, or a whopping 6AU as the radial "size" of this thing, and let anything that comes within that just collide and merge. That will just be a placeholder for we don't know what happens. It could be pulled in or thrown out, not to mention what the tidal forces that close in would do.

A 100million Sol BH is so big it's ridiculous. Get it too close to the solar system and it just overwhelms everything. For more "fun", we might imagine a Milky Way mass BH of only 1 million Sols. The EH there would be 3 million km, and let the "size" there be 10 or 15 million km. It might be interesting to let that shoot through. The resulting of trajectory of anything that didn't "collide" there would probably be pretty close.

Or the "glancing" runs, where it just shoots close by might be even more interesting.

ETA: And another thing -- the low velocity limit: Things begin to get non-NEwtonian, even in the weak field zone, when v/c becomes appreciable. 50,000km/s is ~17% c, and deviations would start becomming apparent there. I'd let 10% c be the limit there, and flag anything that got too much faster than that.

-Richard

I don't think anyone here, certainly not me, thought this would be an accurate model. It was just a Newtonian starting point to see what havoc such a monster ripping through would do.

And the tidal forces of "ginormous" black holes at a given R/r fraction, are actually less than with smaller black holes. It turns out that for a radial free faller, the radial tidal force is exactly the Newtonian result of 2GM/r^3. And that holds all the way in, even at the horizon (which event occurs only in the proper time of the free faller, not external coordinates). Now, for r = R, the horizon, that's

2GM/R^3.

But recognizing that R = 2GM/c^2, you see the tidal force decreases inversely as square of the mass.

Now, orbiting tides get some rather complex corrections and are indeed larger, especially for very fast orbits close in, but that is beyond my back of the envelope capabilities.

-Richard

I think this is the paper which is the base for the news release. The black hole “kick” is I believe a hypothesis, as to why two massive objects would not become gravitational bound to each other. There is no direct observational evidence to confirm one black hole can kick another. i.e. There could be another explanation as to why a massive compact object has the ability to kick another.

The paper notes that one BH’s ability to kick another is, within the logic of the hypothesis, maximized if both BH are equally sized and have high rotational speeds and anti-aligned spins.


http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/0804.4585v1

A recoiling supermassive black hole in the Quasar SDSSJ092712.65+294344.0?
S. Komossa, H. Zhou, H. Lu

You know, William, for all the quoting of papers you do around here, you really don't seem to actually read them. There are at least a dozen references in that article to papers describing analytic and numerical simulations of black hole mergers where the resultant merged black hole gets a very large kick. Note that this is not a situation where one black hole sends another flying away, but where the pair of black holes merge to form a larger one, and the gravitational radiation from the merger causes the new black hole to go shooting off at high velocity. Similar kicks are expected in stellar-collapse black holes and neutron stars, as predicted by Bekenstein (1973).

Just a few of those papers: Baker et al. (2007), Baker et al. (2006), Blanchet, Qusailah & Will (2005), Bogdanović et al. (2007), Campanelli et al. (2007).

This paper represents the first possible observation of such a system. It isn't convincing yet (there are many examples of line-of-sight superpositions that would look very similar), but it's the closest one yet. Bonning, Shields & Salivander (2007) also looked for such systems in the SDSS, but found none.

So William: what are you complaining about?

__________________
"What do you care what other people think?" -- Richard Feynman
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Feynman, at the conclusion of his Challenger report

First, a clarification to make things perfectly clear. This is not one black hole kicking another. This is two black holes merging, and during the merger, emitting a massive burst of directional gravitational radiation which kicks the merged black hole in the opposite direction. This is massive, spectacular gravitational radiation recoil according to the predictions (numerical simulations, not exact solutions which no one has, nor even thinks exist analytically so complex are the equations).

So, various complex numerical GR simulations come up with this pretty amazing, and very non-Newtonian result that two merging BHs, of certain properties (mass and angular momentum, both spin and orbital) will radiate as they merge and produce this large recoil kick.

THat's a gee-whiz type of thing and so they go to looking for evidence of it, and lo and behold, they find something consistent with this. Again, this is up there with the binary pulsar inspirals, observational evidence consistent with some of the wild and crazy strong field GR behavior.

And William, looking over your previous posts, I see you may be a Mitra/ECO/MECO proponent. I'm a little bit familiar with that, and find it fascinating. For any lurkers not familiar, Mitra (and a few others, some converts as it were), argue that the "cold collapse" model of black hole formation is flawed -- the simplifying assumptions are wrong and don't apply to a real collapse. An event horizon and singularity do not form in the proper time of the collapsing object, and it converts all it's mass to radiation and radiates away all its mass-energy eventually (just like Hawking radiation, really -- although bu vastly different mechanisms). The time scale is ridiculous, orders upon orders of magnitude times the age of the universe. No one that I know of has yet found the flaw (if any) in Mitra's math and arguments.

Mitra is not some "anti-GR" type. No, he uses GR and says that the cold dust collapse to singularity solution is flawed.

But whether these are MECOs or "real" black holes with event horizons makes no diffference. If Mitra is correct, ECO/MECOs, to external observers, are so close to a black hole, huge mass in very small space that they behave just about the same. The only difference would be a MECO could have the slightest amount of "hair", a bit of peach fuzz if you like. The "surface" would be so time dilated (rather than z = infinity at the horizon, z = really, really big, but finite number ) and take so long for anything to escape that it would make no difference.

And thus it's my hunch that two merging MECOs would do the same spiral and radiation recoil kick as two real black holes. MECOs vs black holes would be a real theoretical difference, singularity and horizon vs none, but again, externally, they would be very close.

This is thus not a question of whether an event horizon is really there, only the "wild and crazy" GR behavior of two massive, super strong field objects merging and radiating.

-Richard

In reply to parejkoj's comment:
I guess I try to solve the problem, as opposed to quote papers. I can think about and discuss the observations, in terms of more than one hypothesis.

As noted, observational evidence supports the hypothesis that the massive compact object has a strong intrinsic magnetic field, that the massive compact object is not a hairless BH.

But if you wish, keep the hairless BH hypothesis. Try to use it to explain other observations, say galactic evolution and morphology for example. Lack of evolution of quasar metallicity or quasar density evolution, with redshift. I found the anomalous high temperature of intergalactic gas for galactic clusters to be interesting. (The intergalactic gas should cool and collapse in the centre of the cluster and does not. The cooling mechanism increases when the gas collapses.)

Observationally, a massive compact object was ejected. That is what must be explained and is possibly a hint to the solution. Did you look at the Paradox of Youth observations?

Another try with the same "inconveniences" of the GravSimulator not being able to link to the MaxPlanck institute
Starting : BH at 1000 AU above our heads , 1 Mio Solar Mass , 1000 km/s relative speed , EHorizon : 3Mio km , direction : right heading towards Sol .
It takes only 2 years for the BH to reach us. For simplicity the BH was given a diameter of 3 Mio km , being the event horizon .
The animation shows the final days before and after the approach .
The BH arrives from the bottom in this view .
Outer planets Jupiter/Saturn...Pluto loose their bound to sol , while Sol and the inner planets move towards BH .
As a result Sol , Mercury , Venus , Earth are "absorbed" .
The outer planets are capable to escape and seem to fly away in formation away from the BH .
The situation may be less dramatic if the BH just "grazes" by . In the above case we really have a front collision.

Attached Images

BHoleSolarsystempolarwithEV3Miokm.gif (93.2 KB, 7 views)