Greetings. I just now created this account to inquire about the possibility of the Earth undergoing a Pole Shift within the next 5 years.

Please be aware that I am not a scientist, nor adept in that area, and that's why I came here to ask. Also note I am not a conspiracy theorist, I'm just looking for logical answers. Lastly, please accept my apologies in advanced if I posted in the wrong forum, or if I am asking ignorant questions.

I listen to coast to coast AM, tongue in cheek. Paraphrasing the discussion on yesterday's show:

Recently, there's been hype about the Earth undergoing a physical pole shift (not magnetic) in the year 2012 as the Earth passes ?through? the galactic plane.

Questions:

- what are they talking about? what is this pole shift (non magnetic)
- why 2012?
- what is this galactic plane?
- what is the duration of such an event, hrs, days?
- what is the global impact of such an occurrence?

If this is too much to ask, I sum up my priorities as such:
- what is it? can it happen?

Also, I have been doing research on other web sites to find these answers, but I feel I am getting biased answers towards a doom & gloom end of the world scenario mixed with a pinch of prophesy and a dab of religion. I am looking for scientific answers.

Thanks in advance,

Kacy Imuyti

Then don't read these sites, that is the best solution. Also better for your brain.

There is no Planet X (which should have arrived in 2003, turning over our geographical poles, according to Ms. Lieder, kill your doggies! it's better for them!!). There is not going to be a pole shift. There is noting special with 2012. etc. etc. etc.

Also, maybe a binary person will give you a list of about 64 threads on this topic. Or you can just use the search function on this board.

I have decided to make this topic (or a bit more general) as my christmas seminar this year. The title is "The Apple, the Hole and Other Weird Stories."

__________________

Any comments in glorious red are to be considered in ModeratorMode.


善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
He who is good at counting, uses no counting tools
“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27)

The "galactic plane", for the purposes of this nonsense, is the centre line of the Milky Way. The sun passes through this plane twice a year, coincidentally at roughly the time of the winter and summer solstices. At the winter solstice, it happens to pass close to the position in the sky occupied by the galactic centre. This has been going on for many years, and will continue to happen for many years.

The idiots responsible for the 2012 story make two claims that are demonstrably false:
1) The closest alignment will happen in 2012 (it actually happened several years ago).
2) The close alignment will induce gravitational disruption on the Earth (it didn't and doesn't, because the gravity of the galaxy is a tiny and continuously present force).

Grant Hutchison

Welcome, and kudos to you for being curious.

Since this isn't going to happen, your questions are moot. To explain why, search for 2012, or more specifically "pole shift" on this site, and you will see tons of information. (and a few paranoid people).

Or, wait a bit. The list may be on it's way, so I'm going hide before it gets here.

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

Grant,

Could you restate that to make clear that the plane referred to is not
the actual plane of the Galaxy's disk, but merely a line projected onto
Earth's sky of that plane? The alignment involves this projected line,
the position of the Earth, and the position of the Sun, but not the
position of the Galaxy.

I'll make a stab at it by way of analogy.

In place of the Galaxy, imagine a huge office building, wider than it is
tall, but still fairly tall. You are in a position where you can see it from
the side. Maybe you are at ground level, or on a slight hill, or a few
stories up in another building, but you aren't very far up or very far
down. Just like Earth in relation to the Milky Way Galaxy. You draw
an imaginary horizontal line through the center of the building. That
is, the centerline from your point of view. Someone higher up or lower
down than you would see the centerline in a slightly different place.

A window washer works on the outside of the building every day.
He starts at the top and works across from east to west. Each day
he moves his platform a little to get at the windows that are farther
down. When he finishes the windows on the bottom he starts working
his way slowly back up again. It takes him six months to wash all the
windows from top to bottom, and then another six months to wash
them all again, from bottom to top. Twice a year you see him cross
the imaginary centerline of the building. Those correspond to the two
times of the year when the Sun crosses the galactic plane. What is so
special about those times? Nothing. Nothing special happens to you
when the window washer crosses the centerline of the building, and
nothing special happens to Earth when the Sun crosses the centerline
of the Galaxy.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

__________________
http://www.FreeMars.org/jeff/

"I find astronomy very interesting, but I wouldn't if I thought we
were just going to sit here and look." -- "Van Rijn"

"The other planets? Well, they just happen to be there, but the
point of rockets is to explore them!" -- Kai Yeves

Welcome to BAUT Forum.

The collected wisdom of BAUT Forum members in regards to the nearly entirely false predictions for year 2012, is scattered among a number of topics. Since you are a researcher you probably will want to view the original comments as first colorfully expressed, rather than just a few distilled lifeless facts that might answer your questions. Maybe this will help.

Some BAUT Forum topics that have addressed aspects of predictions for year 2012, and some allied articles, are:

1. 2003 no, 2012 si
2. 2012
3. End of Mayan Calendar
4. Pole shift / Planetary alignment 2012?
5. 2012 alignment question
6. about the Mayan 2012 item
7. 2012 Debunking?
8. Possible asteroid impact in 2012?
9. 2012 asteroid?
10. We don't have to worry about 2012!
11. More on 2012 from India Daily
12. 2012 Completion of conspiracy?
13. Here's what's REALLY going to happen in 2012...
14. crop circles, Planet X and 2012
15. Planet X, crop circles and 2012 cataclysma
16. According to the Mayans, what will happen on 23rd Dec. 2012?
17. More 2012 Nonsense
18. NEO 2012?
19. Dangerous NEO in 2012?
20. Christmas 2012
21. 2012 mayan calender end of world
22. Regarding the supposed polar shift/new ice age in 2012
23. New 2012 threat?
24. 2012 look at this thing on the sun
25. Russian Expert Predicts Global Cooling from 2012
26. Pole shift idea origins
27. Dec 20 2012
28. 2012 Stuff
29. No reply previous question
30. Horizon Project-New End of World Scare?
31. Date: December 21st 2012
32. Earth passing thru Galactic center in 2012 - didn't that already happen?
33. 2012: What do you think well happen (if anything)
34. So what will we see in 2012?
35. Galactic Tsunami?
36. Plane of the ecliptic of the galaxy?
37. Earth's Magnetic Field & 2012
38. 2012?
39. Any truth to this?
40. How can the sun be aligned with Galactic centre?
41. the whole 2012 poles flip nonsense
42. Planet X Official Advertisement
43. What year are we in
44. Quick question about the sun
45. Galactic Alignment
46. Books of 2012! -
47. 2007 = 2012
48. Return of Planet X By Rand
49. Don Alejandro - Mayan Elder.
50. Toutatis 4179: 2012?
51. Galactic Alignment in 2012 ?
52. Solar Storms
53. A real prediction!
54. NIBURU - Brown Dwarf, The DESTROYER
55. 2012 Galactic Alignment
56. Not 2012 again! But I cant help it~
57. New evidence for 2012 TEOTWAWKI!!!
58. this may be a silly question but...
59. Just to know if this is true
60. Just Wondering...
61. Planet X/Nibiru, is it real?
62. Youv heard this a million times.
63. Nibaru or Planet X
64. Mayan calendar
65. 2012 Article?
66. can i say something please on planet x
67. Nibiru
68. The growing earth.... :P
69. Our Solar System's Eclipse of the Galactic Plane on Dec 21, 2012?
70. Something scaring the hell out of me....
71. It's Only the end of the World AGAIN!!! (Woo Woo Alert)
72. 2021 Doomsday
73. is it just me or is the milky way brighter..?
74. Polar Shift in 2012?
75. I would like to ask about Nubiru stuff...
76. Bit behind the times, my appologies...
77. the "pole shift thing"
78. All the Truth about 2012
79. Confused about 2012 (yes, another one!)
80. Another paranoia mind due to 2012
81. novelty theory
82. Possibility of Pole Shift

Universe Today: No Doomsday in 2012
Bad Astronomy Blog: 2012, the year nothing will happen
Universe Today: 2012: No Planet X
Universe Today: 2012: Planet X is not Nibiru
Universe Today: 2012: No Killer Solar Flare
Universe Today: 2012: No Geomagnetic Reversal

Good luck with your research. Have fun. I look forward to seeing a summary of what you find to be important.

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It might also be instructive to read everything by and about Immanuel Velikovsky to get a historical background on theories that capture the general public but are scientifically incorrect.

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(By the way, I hate it that so many papers in the areas of planetary science and geology are not easily available to the dreaded "non-subscribers". It is like they are screaming at me: "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH". Good, I feel better now.)

"Quaerendo inventis"

Your Congressperson read the "Cap and Trade" bill before they voted on it, didn't they?

Since you've just done that very thing, anything from me would be supererogatory.

Grant Hutchison

Don't read everything by Immanuel Velikovsky, that would be a complete waste of time. Portions of one book ought to be enough.

Likewise, read only a representative sample of commentary about Velikovsky's "work". Life is too short to waste on this stuff. (So why am I writing this? )

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Microsoft is over if you want it.

The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

I just wanted to give him(?) something to do.

So, what are you saying about me since I have read the vast majority of the material including some of the obscure stuff (Vorhees for example) as a researcher of science history.

__________________
(By the way, I hate it that so many papers in the areas of planetary science and geology are not easily available to the dreaded "non-subscribers". It is like they are screaming at me: "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH". Good, I feel better now.)

"Quaerendo inventis"

Your Congressperson read the "Cap and Trade" bill before they voted on it, didn't they?

Well, if not for the qualification at the end, ("as a researcher of science history"), I would feel that you had wasted your time. But if you have researched this for historical purposes and published this work somewhere (or intend to do so in the future), then I would say that you have done the research and provided insight into it so that others don't have to waste their time on Velikovsky. And I would take off my hat to you.

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Microsoft is over if you want it.

The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

Thank you, but for me it was an enlightening adventure into the politics of American science during the fifties, sixties, and seventies.

The insight is that through all the controversy Dr. V remained a decent and respectful human being while being attacked on many fronts from the likes of Harlow Shapley and Carl Sagan. He was a misguided savant that was outside his field of expertise when it came to his conclusions concerning celestial mechanics and other things scientific in nature. His historical research into ancient and not so ancient works(texts) and his command of the information contained within them was phenomenal. I find his best work to be Earth in Upheaval which he intended to publish first but it was put aside in deference to Worlds in Collision; which was the number one best seller on the New York Times non-fiction list. Earth in Upheaval was used by Harry Hess as an required read in one of the courses he taught because of the great deal of material that had been compiled by Dr. V. as to locations of geologic interest; but not as to Dr. V.'s theories.

There is much more but I will leave it at that other than to say that I feel that pole shift and electric universe theories got a major impetus from Dr. V. in the fifties. And I see that they are still with us.

__________________
(By the way, I hate it that so many papers in the areas of planetary science and geology are not easily available to the dreaded "non-subscribers". It is like they are screaming at me: "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH". Good, I feel better now.)

"Quaerendo inventis"

Your Congressperson read the "Cap and Trade" bill before they voted on it, didn't they?

I just downloaded the C2C episode and was going to listen to it at work today. Should be entertaining. (Hey - I need something to occupy my mind while circling craters!)

__________________

"Why do something now when you can put it off 'til later?" -- me :)

thanks folks, this gives me a great start. When they say "non magnetic pole shift" are they implying the Earth flips upside down? I'm not finding a definitive definition. This topic seems really tied into planet-x, 2012 and Nancy Leader or whatever her name is, which is disappointing as I am supposed to write an essay based on scientific fact and it's too late to change my topic now (last day for picking the topic is tomorrow and I'm already knee deep in this)

I don't know how I'm going to pull this off without citing the ooga booga alien psychics Edward Casey king of terror voodoo stuff. Which means I fail.

Kacy

Some people probably mean that, but I think it depends on the person. Actually, flipping "upside down" doesn't make sense, because in space there is no up or down. Things don't flip. They just float around. Normally, my impression is that they are talking about the crust of the earth shifting. You can imagine the earth as a water balloon. And the "pole shift" would involve the skin moving somehow, so that maybe the tip of Argentina would end up being at the south pole, and the current south pole would end up being somewhere in the Pacific Ocean or something like that.

Can't you write about it skeptically? Say, this is what some people say, but the truth is this. . . You could talk about magnetic pole shifts (which are real).

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As above, so below

I don't think there is one, because the people who made it up don't
have any idea what they're talking about.

As it happens, I corresponded with Nancy Lieder fairly intensively
for well over a year before the date that her imaginary 'Zeta' aliens
told her that Planet X would cause a worldwide cataclysm. Nancy
has psychotic hallucinations of voices, which she interprets as aliens
who communicate with her via a biological implant in her brain. She
imagines herself as the human spokesperson for the aliens, who want
to maintain cosmic order and generally protect humans, but are
restricted in what they are allowed to do by some kind of galactic
council. Nancy said that the aliens told her that Planet X would
pass close to Earth, no later than May 15, 2003, causing Earth's
crust to move dramatically, in what she called a "pole shift". When
that did not happen, Nancy came up with various excuses, and
other people created variations on Nancy's story that have later
dates for the predicted catastrophe.

Nancy's version was that Planet X has an extremely strong magnetic
field. When the planet passes close to Earth, the field will grab onto
iron in the Appalachian mountain range in North America, pulling the
entire crust of the Earth around roughly 90 degrees from its current
position, so that, for example, Antarctica and the Arctic Ocean
would each end up near the Earth's rotational equator. As far as I
know, the Appalachian mountains do not actually contain a large
amount of iron. Mountains usually don't. Nancy's Zetas seem to
be rather poorly informed.

Earth's rotational axis changes all the time, but only very slowly and
by very tiny amounts. It is largely due to changes in ocean currents
and the atmosphere, but may also be partly due to changes in the
extremely slow convection currents in the mantle, below the crust.

Editing to add: I forgot that the largest contributor to changes in
the position of Earth's rotational axis is probably the Moon's gravity.
It's effects are generally over longer time periods than those caused
by changes in the oceans and atmosphere, so are more gradual.
End of edit.

Earth's magnetic field is much more variable. The magnetic poles
can move by several miles per year. The changes are probably due
to changes in convection currents in Earth's liquid outer core, which
is composed largely of molten iron.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

__________________
http://www.FreeMars.org/jeff/

"I find astronomy very interesting, but I wouldn't if I thought we
were just going to sit here and look." -- "Van Rijn"

"The other planets? Well, they just happen to be there, but the
point of rockets is to explore them!" -- Kai Yeves

I would agree with Jens on this one. Stick to your subject and present it in a way that shows what type's of Pole Shifts are real, as discussed above, and what type are just junk science bundled up to scare people and sell books.

__________________
I'm not evil.
An evil person would do the things I think up.

Kacy,

Are you aware that Earth's magnetic field leaves residual magnetism in
iron-containing volcanic magma when it cools and hardens into rock, so
that reversals in the polarity of the field over the last several hundred
million years left "stripes" of oppositely-oriented residual fields in the
rock which forms the bed of the Atlantic Ocean? And that these stripes
were the major discovery that revealed that the continents move?

Search for "tectonic plates" and "magnetism".

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

__________________
http://www.FreeMars.org/jeff/

"I find astronomy very interesting, but I wouldn't if I thought we
were just going to sit here and look." -- "Van Rijn"

"The other planets? Well, they just happen to be there, but the
point of rockets is to explore them!" -- Kai Yeves

I've now listened to the C2C broadcast on this. This guy is a real nut job. His basic premise:

The black hole in the center of the Galaxy sends out gravitational waves in a plane that radiates through the galaxy, and material that doesn't have enough velocity doesn't oscillate through the plane of the galaxy but rather sits in the central plane, a "dark rift" zone that takes 20 years for us to pass through. We will pass through the heart of it in 2012.

When that happens, we will get a "pole shift," which to him means that the crust of Earth will rotate over the mantle (of course, he forgets about the lithosphere and asthenosphere). The mechanism to him is that this Dark Rift will pull on Earth's geographic N and S poles, supplying the torque to do this.

His main evidence seems to be the lost civilizations he thinks his group has discovered that's under the oceans - whole cities. This is "proof" that this has happened before and that it happened quickly, that whole continents sank in just a day or less.

His link between continents (cities) sinking and a pole shift is that it will move what land masses are near the equator. According to him, the only reason that land masses stay above water is the centrifugal force from Earth's own rotation. When Earth's rotation stops with the Pole Shift (and starts back up again afterwards), this will make the equatorial land masses sink. He points to worldwide legends of advanced civilizations thousands of years ago as other evidence this has happened, and says that if it happens today, like to the US, the people would survive (half of us, 25% dying in the event, 25% dying in the subsequent famine and plagues), but the technology would take thousands of years to be developed again.

He also goes into other lines of "evidence," including quantum mechanics and cultural prophecies.

I can't get into all of this at the moment but I'll try to quickly address why it's absolute ¢rap.

First, he's wrong about a "Dark Rift," and planar gravity waves, and that it takes 20 years to pass through, and that we are even going to pass through the plane in 2012. Other people have addressed this in more detail. So his mechanism is a false major premise.

Second, there is nothing special about Earth's geographic poles that would allow anything to pull on them. There's not some giant massive stick through them that you can just rotate. So that's way wrong.

Third, civilizations underwater are not accepted in the archaeological community ... do research on that, including the Atlantis stuff that I'm sure is also addressed on this board somewhere.

Fourth, continents are lighter than ocean material and that's why they "float." they're also much thicker, and have a "root" that goes much deeper into the lithosphere than the ocean crust. Buoyancy keeps them up, not centrifugal force ... otherwise Antarctica (a continent) would be sunk.

Fifth, ... um ... we have books, don't we? We have engineers, doctors, etc. There's no reason why it would take thousands of years for us to re-develop technology, there's no reason why all the evidence from our civilization would vanish if this were to happen. So his conjecture is way wrong.

Oh, and never trust a guy who pronounces "extrapolate" as "ex-trap-YOU-late."

__________________

"Why do something now when you can put it off 'til later?" -- me :)

So I guess I should keep paying my mortgage.

Rocks that are semi-molten tend to be..uhh..sticky.

__________________
(By the way, I hate it that so many papers in the areas of planetary science and geology are not easily available to the dreaded "non-subscribers". It is like they are screaming at me: "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH". Good, I feel better now.)

"Quaerendo inventis"

Your Congressperson read the "Cap and Trade" bill before they voted on it, didn't they?

Anyone think we might see a slight shift toward reason post-2012? I mean, the whole 2012 thing is pretty huge in the realm of pseudoscience. When it doesn't happen, and people who are genuinely curious but otherwise mislead, might start to see the value in real science and get their heads in the right place.

Of course there will be plenty of people coming up with more crackpot theories about why the date was wrong, or it was off by x years.. maybe it was supposed to be 2102. That always happens, but then the story fades away...

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Confirmed Carl Sagan fan.

Hi Bloodtoes, welcome to BAUT.

No, I don't expect a shift to reason post-2012, and for the reason you state in your second paragraph. Plus, there is always someone out there, for either profit or power, ready to exploit people's fears.

The mechanism and date of doom might change, but a new one will always come along.

__________________
At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

Thank you. You're probably right.. I guess we will see. >.< There's always hope..

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Confirmed Carl Sagan fan.

Maybe that's the pole shift we'll see.

__________________
At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

Hi Kacy. I would agree with earlier posters that you can approach the topic from a skeptical standpoint. Obviously I don't know the specifics of the paper you have to write, but any subject can be approached scientifically. In fact I would say scientifically disproving something like this would be more creative and interesting than just, say, a run of the mill report on electromagnitism that might as well be a copy-and-paste from wikipedia.

I'm sure some folks here who are more learned than myself could help you out a bit too if you need it. Hope everything works out for ya!

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"Most editorials are written by people that love to argue but got kicked off debate team for not making any sense." -Seanbaby

NASA and the pole shift http://www.gvnr.com/74/3.htm