When the galactic overlords take over and enslave us they'll make us use what they use. It seems pointless to learn something new that we won't be using much longer.

Even if the aliens take their time getting here, eventually we'll all have computer chips implanted in our brains that will automatically do all conversions and computations for us. Then it won't matter which system anyone uses.

__________________
Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

Galactic Overlords probably won't use decimal, will they?

It'll have a base equal to the number of fingers they have.

Unless there's an evolutionary advantage to having exactly three fingers.

Assuming they have fingers.

__________________
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?

Assuming they have the same number of fingers all the time. 8-[

__________________
"We do not require reality to conform to the expectations of the ignorant"

Uh-oh, revealed too much there...

__________________
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?

I am an aerospace engineer and in aeronautics we use the "english" system exclusively. I learned the metric system in grade school along side the standard units. I spent six years in the US Marine Corps where I got used to thinking about distances in kilometers. When I got out I went to school and started studying engineering. At first this meant taking basic science courses like physics where the professors often waxed philosophically about the uselessness of the english system. I always found the arguments a little elitist and rhetorical. Once I got into more advanced courses in engineering, I learned that I had to be fluent in both the english system and SI. I didn't find either system to be "unwieldy". I have never in my life felt "handicapped" by any knowledge. I would, however, feel handicapped if I ignored the english system and found myself working in the american aerospace industry and had no idea what an inch or foot-pound was.

Sorry, but I have to address this pet peeve of mine. Mach number is a dimensionless parameter that is the ratio of the aircraft's speed to the speed of sound (which is variable based upon the medium and local temperature). Mach number is an extremely important parameter that must be monitered on many aircraft, but a Mach meter is not used to extrapolate airspeed.

I think the main point is the advantages of everyone using the same system are many. Therefore the best thing to do is for those still using the outdated system to convert to the new one. It's going to happen sooner or later, so how about making it sooner :P

__________________
<3

While I agree that it will happen eventually, I have to point out that, unfortunately, a total conversion is an extremely expensive proposition. If the US government mandated that all industries phase out the standard system it would cost those companies big time. Now, in the long run, the companies would, no doubt, save money but large up front costs are hard to justify. Politicians are loath to support legislation that would cost their potential campaign contributors, especially if the law in question has no tangible benefit.

One of the OP points that I strenuously disagree with is the assertion that US students perform poorly on standardized science tests because we use the standard (for lack of a better term) system. There is absolutely no evidence to support this assertion. A person can learn physics, chemistry, biology or any other science just as well using the standard system as a "more fortunate" student who has been brought up using the SI system.

Among other things, I write and produce planetarium shows, and I always try to use metric units (or relative sizes like "three times the size of Earth") in the programs. You'd think that since metric is part of the language of science, nobody'd have a problem with this, but there have been clients who have complained about all those "kilometers and things." Nonetheless, I continue to use metric when possible.

__________________
Starry, starry night...

My site TheSpacewriter.com
and my blog: TheSpaceWriter's Ramblings

This bothers me a little. First I openly acknowledge that the SI system is somewhat easier to use that the "standard" system. But if you are writing planetarium shows for the general American public, then why would you insist on using SI units? Why not just write them in Latin? Using relative sizes would obviously be best, but you have to face the fact that even if they have a passing familiarity with the SI system they are much more likely to have an intuitive feel for "standard" system. To the average American 3ft 4in conjurs up an actual distance, while a meter is an abstraction that he/she will recognize, but it won't have any physical meaning. However, if you write planetarium shows exclusively for the scientifically literate then I suppose that it makes sense to only use the SI system.

I guess that the reason I keep coming back to the thread is that I sense an underlying current that if a person uses the standard system in regular life they must be stupid. I realize that this is not what is being said, but it seems like that is the atitude. Possesing a knowledge of any particular measurement system simply does not bestow any special status.

[quote="beck0311"]I had this elegant reply all typed in a couple of hours ago and when I went to press "submit" it all disappeared and I got a database error for the board. So, here goes again.

And as I made clear, I try to use relative measures whenever possible. If people are coming to a planetarium show or reading an astronomy book, they should not be surprised to be greeted with the language of science, which includes metric units. In astronomy, though, I'm usually working in light-years, parsecs, etc., so it's not a big problem.

It's a question of using the right language for a given situation. You don't go to your mechanic and say, "My thingamajiggie on the end of the whosis is whanging." Well, you CAN do that, but your mechanic is likely to scratch his/her/its head and say, "huh?" No, you actually make an effort to figure out where the noise is coming from so you can say, "Whenver I drive this fast, this noise comes out the rear end by the tailpipe."

When I go to the doctor, I don't say, "Gee Doc, my dingie is hurting." I say, "My elbow hurts" or "I think I pulled a muscle here... " and point to the offending part. It gives us a basis for communication.

So, why should we expect scientists to change the units in which they work when they communicate with a subset of humanity that is still working in other units? Most of us in books or articles will cheerfully put up both units when we're saying that the Earth is 238,000 miles (380,000 km) from the Moon.

That doesn't work too well in a show and I abandoned that double usage a long time ago. In a narration, we only have so much time to get the ideas across (some shows cover a lot of ground in about 30 minutes) and the simpler one can make the language, the better. So, I might say "The Sun is 150 million kilometers from the Earth" or even better, I might say, "The light from the Sun takes about 9 minutes to get here." It's less PRECISE perhaps, but it also avoids using units that the audience might not know.

I write them for people who come to the planetarium. Most of them show up expecting to learn something about science. This also means we teach and learn the language of science -- much as we're doing with the Mars missions right now. I can think of many science terms that have entered the mainstream vocabulary from science and nobody bats an eye about it. So, why should units be different?

(Hell, how many of us use "Trek" terms, even? And they're not (arguably) strictly science terms.)

Nor did I claim any such special status. There isn't any status to knowing the different units, just as there is no special status for those who can speak several languages or can run fast, or juggle or whatever. These are skills and the more skills one has, the one more is able to perceive and understand the universe.

__________________
Starry, starry night...

My site TheSpacewriter.com
and my blog: TheSpaceWriter's Ramblings

This is a borderline strawman argument. Using feet as aposed to meters is hardly the same as refering to your elbow as a "dingie".

I tend to disagree that SI units are necessarily the "language of science", but I could be wrong since I am only an engineer. Things like energy, entropy, acceleration and power are the language of science, but the particular units that they are expressed in are simply a method for discussing the relative magnitude of these concepts.

Don't get me wrong. I am not accusing you of anything, and I certainly appreciate the work you do, I have been known to frequent a planetarium show now and then, and generally enjoy them regardless of the units that they use .

I wasn't referring to you I was referring to the general attitude that is on this thread. You will have to forgive me. As I have mentioned, I work in aeronautical engineering which os one of those rare technology areas that still uses the standard system, and is quite likely to do so for the remainder of my career.

It was an analogy about language, not a direct comparison to units.


I minored in telecommunications engineering in grad school and there's a whole HASH of units in that field!

Ah. I would imagine that you understood full well the problems engendered in the failed Mars Polar Lander mission then. That was a case of mismatch of units between standard and metric...

For the record, I too, have run into the attitude you refer to from those who somehow think metric is more superior... I've never seen one to be superior, but I do recognize some human need to find ways to feel superior... myself, I've always admired multilingual people...

__________________
Starry, starry night...

My site TheSpacewriter.com
and my blog: TheSpaceWriter's Ramblings

Yeah, this was a rather large embarassment. Most of NASA uses the SI system, but here at Dryden we use the standard system almost exclusively since the aircraft companies we deal with have never wanted to go to the expense of changing over to SI. The interesting thing with the Mars Polar Lander was that during the transit to Mars it kept drifting and needed minor corrections, every time it drifted the correction needed was always related to a factor of about 4.5. The number was bothering engineers, but nobody could really figure out where it came from. It turns out that the number was the conversion pounds and newtons (4.448 N = 1 lb). I am not sure that the problem could be fixed enroute, but as a test engineer I am personally offended by the fact that they didn't discover this problem during the verification and validation process (but then again it was a "faster, better, cheaper" program :roll: )

Don't forget about re-tooling the vast majority of our machine shops and industry.

I can't speak for most of the American schools, but where I went to school, we used metric in our science classes. Most of us objected, but the teachers pointed out that the rest of the world used it and that was just tough.

If you want confusing, though, you should try my job. We have casting stations made in the US that do all of their readings in metric. (i.e. temperature, mass flow controllers and distance movements). So when you go to fix something on the station, what is it? It's a half-inch bolt, and I just grabbed my darn metric wrenches. Then we have the British, Swiss, German and Japanese made equipment, and I've got a half-inch wrench that doesn't quite fit. It gets better. Our machine shop... Yup, you guessed it, inches. I just wish my job could decide on one unit.

"My car gets four rods to the hogs-head and that's the way I likes it."

__________________
"Heh heh, you said 'Nuclear'. It pronounced 'Nuculear'. The 'S' is silent, dummy."

Your sig reminds me of the classic physics assignment to re-work a problem in non-standard units (in order learn unit conversion). The favorite was velocity in terms of furlongs per fortnight.

__________________
Starry, starry night...

My site TheSpacewriter.com
and my blog: TheSpaceWriter's Ramblings

It's the Simpsons. Grandpa Simpson is complaining about the metric system and he shouts that out.

__________________
"Heh heh, you said 'Nuclear'. It pronounced 'Nuculear'. The 'S' is silent, dummy."