Hi, R.A.F. Let me try to address the points you bring up.
"Assumption" is your word, not mine. I said "estimate". And yes, I am the one making an estimate. An estimate is the only way to go since an accurate count of that many stars would be impractical.
I don't know what they will do. I could assume that they will recycle the names which would be a scam. But to assume that in the future that someone will commit a scam is not evidence that they are currently running a scam. I would guess that if they ran out of stars they would start using magnitude 11 stars.
To play Devil's advocate means to bring up the other side of an issue, without necessarily being on that side. There's many reasons a person might want to play Devil's advocate. Lawers do it all the time to help anticipate what the other side is thinking. In this case, I do it because having a spirited debate can be fun. I could argue both sides of this issue. But I look at this thread and see a one-sided argument. For the sake of a spirited debate, I bring up points on the other side. But people seem to want to trash me for bringing up the other side of the issue, rather than argue against the issues I raise, or the questions I ask. The exception is Gillianren who correctly made me realize that I should not have used the word "guaranteed" since it implies that every girl would react the same way. So you're right. Because people are trashing me instead of the points I make, it isn't actually any fun.

It means something like Bob or Fred, or California, or Sedna, rather than something commonly referred to as a designation like 2003UB₃₁₃, or HD12345.

Does anybody here have any idea of how many stars have been named after people, or how many available stars there are? Without knowing this, any opinion that they're currently being recycled, or that they will one day run out is baseless.

Unless/until you can provide a basis for your estimate, I will call it as I see it...an assumption.

Of course not...but we have ample evidence that it is a SCAM right now. That evidence is the fact that there are people willing to pay $50 for a certificate that they can print up on their home computer. The company strongly implies that the names are official, when in reality the only ones who will "recognize" it are the others who have spent $50.

That's because there is only one side to this argument.

The "devils advocate" ideas you have presented are unreasonable and that's what I've said...just how is that "trashing" you??

It's your claim...you are going to have to do your own "homework".

No. Read the order of the posts. It was aurora who originally said "For one thing, the same star has been sold by multiple companies, all doing a similar scam. "

Nobody suggested Aurora do his/her homework. That's why I say this argument is one-sided. One side can say anything they want without providing references and go unquestioned.


Why do I feel like I'm being trashed? Because people say things like:
"I really can't imagine why anyone would defend the star naming scammers" when I never defended them, and "So why are you saying that ISR's scam should be the official scam?" when I never said that either. Don't you see the attitude in your responses "Please point out the "fun" part...I seem to be missing it... "? and "you are going to have to do your own "homework".


People could be replying with answers like:
*The IAU has the authority because...

*Even though more people than just astronomers enjoy the stars, astronomers have the right to designate the official naming body because...

Then they would be addressing the questions I asked without putting words in my mouth and aiming their attitudes at me. That's why I feel like I'm being trashed.

Then how come the ISR hasn't been shut down by now? It's because there is another side to the argument. Any prosecutor knows if they tried to charge the ISR with fraud that the other side to the argument would be presented and the prosecution would lose. And keep in mind, me pointing out that another side to the argument exists is not the same as me endorsing their argument.

According to http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,49345,00.html the ISR has sold over a million star names. How many is this exactly? I don't know but it is probably fewer than 2 million or they would have said that instead. The article is 5 years old, so perhaps it is approaching 2 million by now.
In my 8 inch telescope with the 26mm eyepiece I have a field of view of about 0.4 square degrees. I can see stars down to about magnitude 10. Maybe a little fainter if I had a dark sky. When I point my telescope at a patch of sky that appears to the naked-eye as being empty, I can see at least 5 stars in each field of view. If I point my telescope at a random patch of sky, 10 stars is more likely. I can get as high as 200 stars per field of view if I point at a star cluster, or thousands if I point at a globular cluster. Or about 20 if I randomly cruise through the bright Milky Way band.
The sky contains 41253 square degrees. So there are 93,378 fields of view in the total sky. If we use 10 as an average number of stars per field of view, That's nearly 1 million stars. This suggests that they have indeed run out of stars magnitude 10 and brighter. Or perhaps they are close to running out if I use a number other than 10. But if they simply use stars as faint as mag 12, there are 10s of millions of stars at their disposal. If they run out of those, the simply swich magnitudes again. They needn't ever run out.

Here is the number of stars by magnitude .

[Added: Here is another table showing lower estimates based on greater formulation.]

__________________
Lighten up! This is a stellar board! Author: duh.

"The Sun, with all the planets revolving around it, and depending on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as though it had nothing else in the universe to do..." Author: Galileo supposedly.

It's all a gimmick. You never legally name a star. I've had something similar here. Besides, something so beautiful isn't worth $50 to have it named after something. Stars are priceless in my opinion.

Thank you for that list George. I tried to Google for something similar but couldn't find anything.

Do my homework, part 2
This is from the IAU's page denouncing companies such as the ISR.
http://www.iau.org/BUYING_STAR_NAMES.244.0.html

Very appropriate link, tony.

They have some interesting comments in their Q&A that are enjoyable to see.

__________________
Lighten up! This is a stellar board! Author: duh.

"The Sun, with all the planets revolving around it, and depending on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as though it had nothing else in the universe to do..." Author: Galileo supposedly.

Barnard's Star
Kapteyn's Ster
Van Biesbroeck's Ster
Wolf catalogue
Gliese catalogue
Henry Draper catalogue
Lalande catalogue

Can anybody think of other stars that were officially named after people?

__________________
An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.

I know.

I have had people bring 12th magnitude stars to our observatory that they had "purchased".

There are only about 600,000 stars of 10th magnitude or brighter. (edited number because I read the able wrong).

I know that there are multiple companies that sell stars, but I do not know how many have been sold. In a different message I think you stated that ISR had sold more than a million. I suspect that some of their competitors have sold similar numbers, but even if they had sold only half as many then all the stars of 10th mag and brighter would have already been sold multiple times.

I have heard stories about even dimmer stars being "sold", down to 14th magnitude. And some of them were not even real stars.

Clearly, they sold all the stars on common star charts like Sky Atlas 2000 (which goes down to mag 8.5 if I remember correctly) a long time ago.

Actually, there is nothing to prevent ISR from selling the same star to more than one person. I do not know if they have done that yet, but I don't think their adverts say anything that would prevent them from doing that.

Edited to add quote from IAU:

__________________
"I'm as accurate as any psychic. And I'm a cartoon!" -- Squidward

"Arrrgh, the laws of physics be a harsh mistress!" -- Bender

Actually, around 5 million (see the link that George provided).

Since I have seen a mag 14 star that was "sold", I would guess they are already past mag 12.

Edited to add: Just had a thought, do they only sell stars visible from the Northern Hemisphere? If so, that would reduce the available pool. Although with a magnitude 14 star, it doesn't matter much because most people that buy one will never see it, even if they have a big enough telescope it takes a lot of accuracy to find and identify a mag 14 star.

__________________
"I'm as accurate as any psychic. And I'm a cartoon!" -- Squidward

"Arrrgh, the laws of physics be a harsh mistress!" -- Bender

this link:
http://home.carolina.rr.com/nirgal/buyastar.html
tells the story of an astronomer who had to use a source that went down to 15th magnitude to find the star.

More links:

http://www.enzerink.net/peter/astronomy/starfaq/

http://www.aoas.org/article.php?stor...612&mode=print

Also saw some references to past court cases where one star naming company has sued another.

__________________
"I'm as accurate as any psychic. And I'm a cartoon!" -- Squidward

"Arrrgh, the laws of physics be a harsh mistress!" -- Bender

Yes, it looks like about 13th or 14th magnitude instead of 12 before the available stars are in the 10s of millions.

That's a good point about northern hemisphere stars. About a quarter to a third of all stars are not visible at all from mid-latitudes, and the number shrinks for higher latitudes where a lot of Europe resides. You'd have to live at the equator for all stars to be technically visible, and even there, your view of the polar stars would not be good.

I found, I suspect, a more accurate table. The first link simply multiplied the prior cound by 2.91 for each gain in magnitude.

This star count table seems to be more accurate. The "Count" column is accumlative and has much fewer stars per magnitude than the prior site.

Wow. That would have to be some kind of rip-off record if they sold that many star names (I presume, 2nd only to credit card companies charging > 20% interest. ).

__________________
Lighten up! This is a stellar board! Author: duh.

"The Sun, with all the planets revolving around it, and depending on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as though it had nothing else in the universe to do..." Author: Galileo supposedly.

They have been selling stars (various companies) for more than 20 years (I found documents that they were doing it before 1985 at least).

__________________
"I'm as accurate as any psychic. And I'm a cartoon!" -- Squidward

"Arrrgh, the laws of physics be a harsh mistress!" -- Bender

There is a good article on page 28 of
Sky & Telescope, Aug 2000 with an editorial in
Sep and letters in Oct. Nothing more
beguiling than old S&Ts with half read
stories and excellent graphics! Anyway why
name a faint star in Draco as Procyon? Thats
the certificate they purchased. Last thing,
the old saying about no such thing as bad
pulicity applies here!

I just called the ISR at the phone number on their web site. I asked them if I buy a star, will I be able to see it? They told me I'd need a pretty good telescope. They're currently using stars in the 12-15 magnitude range.

That rules out most back yard telescopes.

My wife got mine in 1982 and I reciprocated on her b-day (for charm value only, of course).

I suppose, their success underscores our desire to connect in some permanent way to the universe, along with our love for ownership for just about everything. Yet I suspect it is some of these same feelings which drive us to want to do more. That is why I like the idea of a IAU sanctioned entity using star naming money to support special projects (e.g. save the Hubble) which might not otherwise receive support. This gives you and I a chance to contribute to a project of our own choice, and still receive the charm inherent in having our own star, though we'll know science will still utilize their superior naming system.

__________________
Lighten up! This is a stellar board! Author: duh.

"The Sun, with all the planets revolving around it, and depending on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as though it had nothing else in the universe to do..." Author: Galileo supposedly.

So how much revenue might they have generated?

Let's say they started with 9th magnitude stars, eliminating the first 120,000 brighter stars. If they have completed stars through 12th magnitude, this means 2.34 million stars have been sold. If the average price is, say, $75, then sales for ISR alone would be $175 million. If stars through 13th mag. were all sold, the gross revenue is $462 million. If the other companies combined match this, about $1 billion has been collected for star naming. If half is in overhead, that would still generate 1/2 billion bucks that would go to projects that the little people, including me, would feel we were a part of; probably, even more than the more important government funded projects. [quickly added:] What are the chances for Hubble if the IAU sends NASA a check for $500,000,000 dedicated for its service?

__________________
Lighten up! This is a stellar board! Author: duh.

"The Sun, with all the planets revolving around it, and depending on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as though it had nothing else in the universe to do..." Author: Galileo supposedly.