I recently read an article about "allias effect" (Think I have that right) anyway, the observation was that during an eclipse (lunar) that a pendulum increases speed (albeit slightly)
The article went on to say how mysterious this was, and how no one could figure out, or come up with theory as to justfy why this was so..........

I do not understand the confusion, if I do understand the question ?
But during an full lunar eclipse, would we not experience a slight lessoning of gravity on earth, (as now we have Moon and Sun pulling in unison against earth's gravity) resulting in a increase in the speed (slight) of the pendulum ?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.......

Wikipedia: Allais effect

You can probably read a lot about it, both in this forum and about the Web, with the right search term.

Why wouldn't a "lessening of gravity" (if that's what you think happens) produce a decrease in pendulum speed? Think about a pendulum in microgravity: it would barely move.

__________________
0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 ...

With a pendulum in motion,(Given Mass (X) in motion), contained within a static gravitaional field(Restrained by given Grav Field)

Suddenly, we reduce Grav field, (some small quantity) (IE by eclipse)
The (kinetic) Mass would remain constant, and be restrained less, increasing speed and length of arc

I'm running this mind experiment, where we have this pendulum swinging away in a given grav field and suddenly in mid swing we bring an opposing grav field over top of it...(Say the moon at an altitude of 20,000 Miles). the pendulum is now in Zero grav, and (still containing its momentum) it starts circling around the "fulcrum" pivot point of the pendulum endlessly...

the pendulum moving faster durring a solar eclips is counter-intuitive.

Unless.. maybe if the pendulum is on the far side of the earth from the solar eclipse?

__________________
...the poor square has to say, "Well, I was in some other mystic dimension, called UP!" -C.S.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -C.S.

Remember, you just have facts, you have mere facts. -worzel (said with sarcazm)

"Pain is just weakness leaving the body." -unknown

What the difference in gravitational effects between a solar eclipse and a normal new moon? Not jolly much I'd suspect.

Changes in light pressure caused by an eclipse could cause tiny changes in pendelum speed.

I have been looking for current information on the Allias effect findings and came across this thread. From what I've read there were plans to carefully repeat these observations to prove or disprove the deviation during the 1999 and 2005 eclipses but I haven't been able to find anything on it other than here: http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/head...t06aug99_1.htm.
The wikipedia article seems to contradict the nasa article.

Allias' original observations were made during the total Solar eclipse of June 30, 1954. He observed the pendulum changing its angle of rotation by 13.5 degrees. He again observed this during a Solar eclipse in 1959. Since this is an easy and little or no cost experiment I'm surprised 50 years have gone by with no one clearing this up. Is there perhaps some reason the scientific community would avoid addressing it more fully? From what I read there were plenty of willing participants. I ran across several articles of others observing the same thing.

At the new Moon, the energy is the most passive or most peaceful as compared to the full Moon being a more agressive energy. At new and full moon, the Sun and Moon produce tidal bulges that add together to produce extreme tides showing this is an extreme movement time on earth. When the Moon is aligned exactly between Sun and Earth it makes sense that there could be a deviation such as was observed by Allias. During normal new Moons it would be so slight, if there at all, that it would go unnoticed. But during a total eclipse the Moon is blocking the normal interaction between the Sun and Earth as much as is possible. So if there were to be any effect it would be noticeable then.

I'm also trying to get a clear visual of what he observed. Excuse me if I appear ignorant as I'm clearly not a physics major. Would someone be so kind as to explain what Allias saw in terms even a child could understand. I've only seen one of these pendulums in action once but I have some understanding of how it works. If the normal rotation is 0.19 degrees/minute what does it mean that it changed its rotation by 13.5 degrees during the 2.5 hour eclipse? Does that mean that during the 150 minutes of the eclipse it moved 42 degrees instead of 28.5 degrees?

The Wikipedia article is Allais Effect, just so we have the link again.

Noever's planned look for the effect appears not to have happened. A dubious pro-Allais-effect site, allais.info (WARNING: Guard your eyes; the author appears to hate good website design), has this about Noever:

It looks to me that the number of failed attempts at replication are enough to explain why the effect doesn't seem to gain traction with the mainstream. That occasionally some experimenters get odd results, makes me think that people who are interested in the topic should continue to invest their time, resources, and efforts to figuring out what is going on.

I await the persuasive data. I don't believe I shall go seeking it though.

You may enjoy Against the Mainstream topics Allais effect casts doubt on GR? and The Strange Disappearance of Maurice Allais.

__________________
0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 ...

Thank you for these links, quite interesting and a lot of reading ahead of me, especially the links in the letter from Noever.

I think you misunderstood. It did happen but it was never published. He suddenly left Nasa taking all his data with him. Nasa seems to not totally discount it otherwise they wouldn't bother to have the page on their site.

One thought that occured to me as to the ability to repeat it. It may be more and less noticable at certain declinations and certain latitudes.

Thanks again,
Connie

Sorry for giving that impression. Perhaps I am less trustful of the sourcing site I referenced than you might be. By "Noever's look appeared not to have happened" I was including the publishing of the report on the data collected as part of the look.

It's clear there was no report published, or it would be easy to find. It's less clear that the look happened, or that meaningful data was gathered. If they did actually and didn't report, that's as good as not looking to me.

It's pretty hard to tell what NASA may or may not discount by measuring what they bother to include in their websites' contents. Sometimes PR happens for PR's sake.

__________________
0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 ...

I see, thank your for clarifying. I guess I'd have to know under what circumstances Noever and the others left. I suppose it could be just coincidence in the timing but it seems that his notes would have belonged to the boss and someone would have been there to use or discard his work when he left. It wouldn't surprise me if there is really something they discovered that it might have military value and be suppressed. There seems to be more that just the one group who support Allias and his findings. I didn't see any sign of Noever mentioned at Mobular Tech either.

Such simple -- some very inexpensive -- experiments don't seem to me to be very good fodder for theories about suppression of results because of military value. Any nation, indeed almost any individual with a travel budget, can perform similar rock-on-a-rope experiments.

Noever was counting on volunteer efforts at several museums. Does the suppression keep those mouths in Germany, Austria, Italy, Australia, UAE, France, Belgium, Russia shut, too? Whose military is it that would be doing the suppressing?

__________________
0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 ...

Using the equation for the period of a simple pendulum T=2.pi.sqrt(l/g) where l is the length of the pendulum (let's say, one meter) and g is the acceleration due to gravity (close enough to 9.8 m/s/s), we can see that the period of a one meter long pendulum is 2.00 s. If gravity were (for example) reduced to 5.7 m/s/s the period for the same pendulum would be 2.7 s, which is a longer time. Hence, if gravity is reduced the period increases, which means the pendulum slows down. This is opposite what the effect would suggest.

You know, I looked at that and thought that it couldn't be right, getting a nice round number for the period. After all the pendulum problems I worked through as a student and TA, I never noticed that pi and sqrt(g) are equal to better than half a percent. It must be because calculators became commonly available before I started doing physics, and we just punch the numbers in. That's a shortcut one might readily recall if doing everything by hand or with a slide rule.

__________________
"I have a cunning plan that cannot fail."
S. Baldrick

I suppose you're right 011, unless someone thought of something the other's didn't. It just occurred to me that during that same 1954 eclipse Jupiter was completely occulted and in alignment with earth, Moon and Sun. Haven't they learned that Jupiter plays an important role in the area of gravitation happenings on earth? I wonder if this has to play into the equation.

Crux, what if the gravity were being increased rather than decreased? With Jupiter anywhere around things tend to expand. I noticed with each of the eclipses observed on this page: http://home.t01.itscom.net/allais/bl...decrypting.htm
either Jupiter was close by or his ascending node was within conjunction or at major angle to the ecliptic. Also, with each eclipse listed to have observed the Allias effect usually the node of the Moon was within 4 degrees, except in 61 when the ascending node of Jupiter was near 0 degrees Cancer, thus 90 degrees from the ecliptic.. I feel really out of my league here with you guys, so thanks for your patience.

No, in fact, they haven't. Jupiter hardly plays any role at all, because it's so far away.

Oh, and don't worry about feeling scientifically out of your depth with all of us. There are quite a few (including me!) who aren't actually scientists at all.

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Exactly what Gillianren said. Here's a good page (by the BA himself) nicely explaining & illustrating the relative effects of gravity & tidal forces of the solar system bodies on the Earth:

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/planets.html

As you can see, Jupiter contributes only one hundredth of the gravity (maximum) than of our own moon, which itself only has a force on us of 3 millionths of Earth's!

Oh, forgetting my manners; welcome to the board AquarianEssence, I hope you stick around & learn many things about Astronomy here, I have

(Incidentally, that particular page has personal significance for me since it was by finding this, while attempting to allay a friends fears about May 2000, that I first discovered Bad Astronomy! was that really over 7 years ago?!).

__________________
N6MAA10816
'Forensic anthropologist! That's why no gun'
Are you a Bright?

Um, no, it wasn't. It's only February 2007; you've a couple of months to go before it's over 7 years later!

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

But he may have attempted to allay his friend's fear before it was May.

__________________
"I have a cunning plan that cannot fail."
S. Baldrick

The gravitational effect of the Sun on the Earth is undiminished by the passage of the Moon between the two...otherwise you'd see a change in the orbital mechanics of the Sun/Earth system.. (check with Celestial Mechanic)
There is however a way to effect the motion of the pendulum locally without "touching" it. A Foucault pendulum set up near a nuclear reactor which has been offline for refueling, will show a slight bu