OK, you seem to be so upset with my use of the term "hypocrite" with regards to Stern on this particular issue, so I've revisited my original thread on this to actually remember what we were arguing about:

Stern said this after the IAU decision:
When the Stern-Levinson paper clearly said this:
The paper goes on to categorize the 8 classical planets (but not Pluto) as uber-planets, and even includes a footnote to point out that the trojans are "locked into mean motion resonances with Jupiter". In other words, Stern clearly understands the concept of the "clearing the neighborhood" terminology used in the IAU decision -- even with respect to Trojans and Plutinos.

Here is my original complaint about Stern in the post you link:
And that is my beef with him. Not that he has changed his mind, but that he is feigning ignorance about the meaning of the IAU decision, demeaning the organization, its members and its process. It is petty, unprofessional and, given what we know he already knows, hypocritical.

Hypocrite: a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he does not hold

While I have a tremendous amount of respect for Stern and his contributions to planetary science and astronomy, he really diminished himself in the eyes of a lot of people with his bizarre reaction to the IAU decision.

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"Barbarism is the natural state of mankind. Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph" -- Conan

Thank you for the reasoned post baric, that's the sort of thing that keeps me here at BAUT.

However, I disagree. I can see where things might have been interpreted differently by the different parties.

It wasn't just the use of the word "hypocrite" that prompted me to press the issue. That usually means that someone (Stern in this case) is being accused of saying one thing and doing another--which I find rare in public forum, since the record is there for all to see. Unless the perp is of low morals--and no one seems to be accusing him of that. So, there's usually a story behind the story.

From my point of view, it looks like statements of Stern were interpreted, and when his actions didn't fall into line with that interpretation, some people were surprised. Clearly, there is an alternative interpretation--one that Stern himself seems to hold.

I, for one, would like to hear a reasonable interpretation on how Stern can assume contradictory positions to two statements with almost identical wording.

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"Barbarism is the natural state of mankind. Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph" -- Conan

guys guys guys. Please. Let's not get too worked up over this.

As regards "hypocrite", I have a rule. Never post anything about someone else on an open forum you wouldn't want that person to read. In other words, don't use words about someone you wouldn't use to their face.

Alan Stern is a great guy. I can tell from his interviews. He's also managed to fulfil the childhood dreams of every geek on this forum and is taking a trip to Pluto. Even if that trip fails, he has a flawless Jupiter flyby to his credit.

Yes, his stance is perhaps a bit hypocritical. But this issue isn't just about science; it's about emotion, and in the realms of emotion things can get contradictory. I think, of all people, he probably deserves a little leeway to get emotionally involved. This matters to him.

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It's gotten to the point where careful investigation is needed just to tell parody from reality. I think that means reality is broken.- Noclevername.

I'll try, but I have to say up front, just to make it clear, that anything I say about his thought or motivation is speculative. And if I'm wrong, that's me being wrong not him.

The crux of the issue seems to be his lambda calculation, is that fair to say? He uses it to differentiate the eight major planets from the rest of the crew, in his paper, and you find that hard to reconcile with his current stance.

Is that a fair summary? or is there more that we should add?

I agree completely. You might want to pass that advice on to Stern, as well, with regards to some very public and unflattering comments he has made about his peers.

Personally, I would have dropped this a while back if not for the inference that I was using "shoddy" logic and therefore could not defend my original statement. Do I not have a duty to respond to ad hominems like that? And as I have said before, I do not consider being called hypocritical about a particular position to be the grand slur that others make it out to be.

I am not going to flog this dead horse anymore. Anyone who wants to discuss with me further can do so through IM.

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"Barbarism is the natural state of mankind. Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph" -- Conan

OK, then, I'll start here.

The paper that is referenced calculates a lambda, which depends upon many parameters. But the lambda calculation for a given planet does not depend upon how many bodies are in the planet's orbit. In other words, you could dump the entire asteroid belt into Jupiter's orbit, and that would not change Jupiter's lambda. So, I think it is unfair to characterize Stern's calculation of lambda as Stern saying that such and such a planet has cleared its orbit, especially when it seems Stern himself denies it.

To be hosest, as i'm of the 10 planet camp. I don't honestly don't mind the defination that led to demotion all that much.

They are still called Dwarf -Planets- after all.

I still think Belt Planet would have been a better term for them, as that implies they are part of simmilar group. And IMHO they should of left the Double Planet catagory in the definition they they had origionaly voted on.

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