Here's a question about a photograph that has been annoying me for quite some time now. The picture in question is AS14-67-9367 and was taken from the Apollo 14 ALSEP site. It shows LM in the distance with the reflective MET tracks leading up to where Shepard and Mitchell are working.



HI-RES version: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/Hi...-67-9367HR.jpg

Here's a magnified view...



My question is basically: "Where is the flag?" The flag was raised prior to the astronauts heading West of the landing site to set up the ALSEP, so the flag should be visible in this image. Compare this photo to AS14-66-9305 in order to see the location of the flag in relation to the LM and the high-gain antenna:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/Hi...14-66-9305.jpg

I'm not 100% convinced that the flag is hidden by the undulating terrain, but I could be wrong. What does everybody else think about this?

Judging from other pics its sitting behind the parabolic dish.

Edit: Ok I goofed. Judging from this pic and this pic it actually looks like the LM is in a small gully and that the perspective prevented the flag from showing.

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I think you're right, from the picture links you have shown, it does look like the US Flag is facing directly away from the camera, thus it should appear only as a vertica(ish) line.

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:-k I dunno:

- 9305 has the flag roughly parallel with the front face of the LM and partially obscuring the high-gain antenna. The zoom and normal shots of 9367HR don't show any obvious obscuring of the high-gain at all.

- Even if the flag is pointing directly away from the camera, it would have to be perfectly flat to just disappear like that, unlike what's shown in 9305.

- In 9305 there's somethin' like a box or bag under the left landing strut hinge where it mates to the desent stage that is not readily apparant in the zoom shot of 9367HR.

I'm wondering if maybe-just-maybe the flag just fell over while the guys were out and about? 9305 kinda shows the flag mast leaning in an odd direction and if it fell into the gulley in the direction of the LM it may be below the camera's line-of-sight? :-k

Check out 9338. You can see from this picture that the flag is pointed away from the LEM, and you can see the wheel tires of the MET.

It looks more to me that the flag would be backdropped by the LEM from the spot that 9337 was taken.

That seems like a possibility. Note that after EVA-1 the flag is pointing toward the LM, while after EVA-2 it's pointed away from the LM.

EDIT: I have to retract this as the photo in question was taken during EVA-1.

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Seems the wind direction changed between the shots... :P

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I'm now leaning more toward the "flag pointing directly away from where the photo was taken" hypothesis. Look at this post-EVA 1 pan. The image in question was taken from the ALSEP deployment area, which can be seen here as some little white dots near the horizon toward the center. It's obvious that the flag would be almost edge-on from there and against the noisy background of the LM.

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Could this be it?

(post deleted)

sorry, but those two photos don't convince me. I can't see the shapes you've outlined.

I'm not saying it's not there, just I can't see it

I think you might be right, Bob.

The "stars" appear to be that lighter shade in the (apparent) upper right of the "flag", and I can see what appears to be a reasonably defined line extending below to the ground. There does not appear to be a continuation of that line above the "flag".

I can definitely see a line there that could be the flagstaff. I'm not positive about anything else.

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That's pretty much the way I see it as well. I drew in an outline of what may be the flag and staff, but I'm certainly not positive of it. This topic is also being discussed at Apollohoax.com. People there seem to think the line we see as a possible flagstaff may be a film defect. They may very well be right but I wouldn't rule it out yet.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a14/images14.html#9233h
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a14/AS14-66-9324.jpg

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a14/as14-66-9338.jpg

Clearly the flag has changed orientation between these two photos. All pictures from EVA 1 indicate the same orientation as 9324, flag toward the LM.

9367 was taken during ALSEP deploy on EVA 1. The flag should be pointed almost directly toward the LM from that vantage point.

Bob B., the line you highlight is imaginary. It does not exist in the 9367HR image. I have opened that image in Microsoft Photo Editor and played with balance.

I do note the following, evident in the posted image of 9367 and the zoom. The LM is directly facing the camera, with the front landing leg and ladder straight down the front, not standing out against the background. Just to the right of the outer left leg is visible on the LM the flag on the gold insulation. See the 9305 image to verify. Just to the right of that flag is a strange bar along the front of the LM. It is a vertical row of bright and dark patches. This does not appear to correspond to anything on the LM as shown in 9305. I admit the angle is different, but nothing matches.

That stripe is just about the correct placement for the flag, between the LM shadow on the ground and the antenna. The shadow falls slightly to the right in the image, given by the sun visible in the picture. That stripe has the correct vertical position to match the flag height - just below the top edge of the antenna. The alternating brights and darks resemble the stripes on the flag. I'm not sure if the stripes run together or are obscured by the rise of ground, and the star field is not evident, but otherwise it seems to fit. I suggest that the striped bar is the flag.

My other approach was to search the transcripts to see if there was mention of the flag falling over or being replaced. Anyone wishing to do so be my guest. My quick scan for "flag" on each page was fruitless, but I was less than comprehensive.

Clearly the flag has changed orientation between these two photos.

I had a look at the (fuzzy) video clips from ALSJ and I think you can see the flag actually turning from pointing almost towards the LM to not being visible in the frame at around 131:10:27 (about the time Mitchell says "Okay. Turn PLSS feedwater On."). This is while the crew are waiting for the pressure to drop enough to open the hatch for the 2nd EVA.

That's about 1:08 into the video clip at 131:09:18.

The flag is visible in the other ALSJ clips before that point but not afterwards.

The ALSJ video frames are truncated on the right compared to the SpacecraftFilms DVD video frame. But unfortunately this part of the video is not on the DVD (which starts after Shepard is on the surface). It would be useful to see how this part of the TV appears on the JSC videotapes.

In the Apollo 14 lunar lift-off movie taken by the DAC, one can see the flag heavily fluttering, but not tumbling.

Harald

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This is possible, as maybe the slight breeze from the escaping oxygen was enough to turn the flag when it's orientation was unstable enough.

You may send your observation to Eric Jones of the ALSJ for inclusion into it. Send an email to honais at austarnet dot com dot au

Harald

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"Flying in space is risky business, but just staying on this planet is risky business too." - John Young, astronaut

Oh, Boy! That'll Be the Day. There's some horrible stuff here. It reminds me of Hoagwash looking at a few pixels and deciding they are the remains of a big glass (or was it crystal) tower on the moon.

There is muddlement about perspective, dimensions, the orientation and height of the flag, when different photos were taken, and even about whether the flag was standing or not. Just like the HB's with their "analyses of anomalies."

In AS14-66-9305 the flag is pointing almost up-sun, not "roughly parallel with the front face of the LM..." And although in that photo it's partially obscuring the high-gain antenna, there's no way it would do that in AS14-67-9367.

So, the flag is pointing away from the camera in the distant photo, and its pole is similar in thickness to the cable running to the high-gain antenna, the rungs of the ladder and the antenna's tripod. Are they visible? No. About the finest line visible is, due to perspective, the dark one at the lowest part of the antenna's dish, and that's possibly a combination of things.

Those large vertical bright spots in the zoomed-in version could not be from such a dull, skinny flag pole -- compare it's thickness with that of the LM's legs. And Bob B's suggested flag is too high.

My guess is, like others, that the flag is hidden against the LM at roughly the position of the fiducial or a little to its left. But the simple answer is, it's just not visible.

quote : " Clearly the flag has changed orientation between these two photos. "

did the astronauts habitually twist the flag when taking a photoshoot close to the LM so that it was ` more visible `

just a thought , having spent billions on the moon shots the NASA brass egged on by politicians would want the stars and stripes clearly visible where ever possible

but in long range shots if it was left at a ` bad ` angle driving back to realign it would be a waste of time / fuel / oxygen and cut into the science / survey missions hence i was left where it lay

YRS - APE