The current case of the faked Bush files again shows:

-Stuff can be faked that will get approval by "experts" (btw, who were the experts in the Bush file case?)

-As soon as the faked stuff is given to a broader audience, some smart guys will sooner or later find some flaws to proove the stuff was faked.

(Some 20 years ago we had a similar scandal in Germany of much larger scale with the faked Hitler diaries, if some of you remember. They were said to be genuine by "experts", but after they were published, flaws were soon found by others)

Documents about Apollo are now in the public since some 40 years and until now, not even Jay *) found something odd in them. :-)

Harald


*) or me 8-[

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"Flying in space is risky business, but just staying on this planet is risky business too." - John Young, astronaut

well DOH! so calkled " experts " who have degrees / diplomas /industry experience and especially first hand aceess or experience in the appllo programs are automatically ignored by HBers

" experts" must be self taught trailer parkers with mental health issues

see once you ` tighten ` your criteria all experts can see the falacy of the appollo program


YRS - APE

Yeah, this came to my mind too. Secrets are tough cookies to keep to yourself. A few sheets of paper get figured out in days yet it's been how many years and nothing's leaked about the Apollo missions? That in itself should be a major argument.

I'm waiting for a similar argument from the HBs that is now being batted around about these documents. "Well they may be forgeries, but the information they contain is so grievous that it still needs to be investigated!" -> "The Apollo missions might have happened, but on the extreme possibility that they were fakes, we must investigate NASA for faking them!" #-o

Sometimes I think we need a good apocalypse to get rid of the idiots.

Disclaimer: The above in no way was meant to be a political statement. I just find it abhorring that people can take what is quickly becoming realized as fake information yet loudly proclaim that even though it is fake, the charges are so grievous they must be investigated. Kinda like people using 30-40 year old information to 'prove' that modern-day nuclear power plant designs are dangerous.

I remember this well. My recollection is that they were declared genuine by "experts" who had a financial interest in the diaries being accepted as genuine. Very shortly after they were scrutinized by true experts, they were proven to be forgeries. I also remember an article in Time magazine about it. In the articles the true experts mentioned how stunned they were at the ease in which the diaries were proven to be fake. The binding or the ink or something like that was found to contain a type of plastic that had not even been invented in 1945. Handwriting analysis also showed many discrepancies, but the chemical analysis was conclusive. This was not a case of some experts being fooled. This was a case where the people who committed the fraud tried to deceive the public by presenting co-conspirators as experts. The Bush memos appear to be the same thing.

Yup. The (so-called) Hitler diaries were sold to Der Stern by a middle-man employed by the forger. Der Stern declared their provenance and (I believe) even went to press with the first installment before the historians and document experts had the chance to cry foul.

The forgery was a second-rate operation, relying solely on copying Hitler's "hand." The paper, bindings and ink were all easily proved to be of post-war manufacture and (IIRC) the forger accidentally quoted commentary (not Hitler writing first-person) from a Reich historian which lead to the discovery of the actual source document.

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In the progress of this discussion I shall endeavor to give a satisfactory answer to all the objections which shall have made their appearance, that may seem to have any claim to your attention.

Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 1

It cost Der Stern a lot of its reputation. It's not a pure newsmagazine like Time, more like Look or Life. They run one issue with the first part of the diary before the roof came down. The guy who forged the diaries came through the whole thing pretty well. He went to jail for some three year, but became some celebrity as the man who managed to fool this magazine in such a simple way. He died in 2000 on cancer.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal...x.html?sect=27

In 1992, some kind of screwball comedy was made, basing on what had happened. One of the rare good german comedies. It's title was Schtonk!
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0105328/

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"Flying in space is risky business, but just staying on this planet is risky business too." - John Young, astronaut

The thing is. If CBS had come clean immediately, it wouldn't have warrented even a footnote in history. But their dogged resistance in the face of all the responses hyped it beyond all reason.

PS For those who care, here's a side-by-side analysis of CBS's documents versus an 'actual' memo by the supposed author. It's actually rather humerous to read, using the wrong lingo, 'billet' an Army term that the AF does not use, for example.

Yet again, if experts are so quick, even eager, to tear into the slighest inaccuracy here and other such examples, we should be seeing that with the Apollo missions too.

I think you're witnessing a bit of the same with CBS. They are really taking a beating over the current document scandal. Not a lot of thought was put into forging the Bush documents - surely The Eye (CBS) would have done a bit more research. I suspect that, like at Der Stern, the feeding frenzy started at CBS before their own document specialists could be heard.

Anyone familiar with military documents and orders of that period would probably look at them with suspicion. The existence of kerning and the signature block are especially strong arguments in favor of a forgery.

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In the progress of this discussion I shall endeavor to give a satisfactory answer to all the objections which shall have made their appearance, that may seem to have any claim to your attention.

Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 1

Do any of the major HB players claim media participation in their hoax scenario?

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In the progress of this discussion I shall endeavor to give a satisfactory answer to all the objections which shall have made their appearance, that may seem to have any claim to your attention.

Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 1

I'm putting on my HB Cap now.

Taking off my HB cap now because my head hurts!

It looks like CBS has cut its losses as well.

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In the progress of this discussion I shall endeavor to give a satisfactory answer to all the objections which shall have made their appearance, that may seem to have any claim to your attention.

Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 1

What this incident shows is that those who should know better can be fooled by truly amateurish forgery if the payoff is big enough.

CBS wanted so badly for the story to be true that they ignored (possibly unconsciously) any signs the memos might not be all they were supposing them to be. This was their chance to take a political figure they hate down a few notches, and they took only the flimsiest measures to verify the memos before going to broadcast.

Most hoax believers are exactly the same way. They want so badly to be right that details not conforming with their world view just slide by them unnoticed.

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"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

It is a general truth that people will examine evidence opposing their claims much more closely than evidence favoring their claims. I've even seen debunkers (whom you would think know better) make claims that don't bear five minutes' examination.

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Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

This sounds like the situation that developed in the tabloids over here regarding mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners during the war.

For those that don't know, following the publication of the photos of American troops mistreating prisoners, a series of photos appeared seeming to show British troops doing much the same thing. The one most frequently used depicted a British soldier supposedly urinating on an Iraqi prisoner with a bag over his head in the back of a van. They were splashed all over the front page of The Daily Mirror (a paper not renowned for its impartial reporting style) with suitably appalled-sounding headlines.

Very soon afterwards it was suggested that the pictures might be fakes. The prisoner showed no sign of any kind of injury that might be expected on a maltreated man. The gun was not the right type of gun. The van was traced and found to be a vehicle that had never left these shores, etc. etc. Nonetheless, the editor of the Daily Mirror, a slimy git by the name of Piers Morgan, publicly stuck to his guns, insisting these photos were genuine and that his paper was absolutely right to print them so quickly, before even attempting to verify their authenticity.

A week or two later the pictures were conclusively shown to be fakes, staged by some sick goons. Naturally Piers Morgan came under heavy fire for so prominently publishing such emotive material before verifying the source. His defence?

The pictures may be fakes, but they accurately represent the sort of things that would be going on if British troops in Iraq were maltreating the prisoners.

Unsurprisingly, he was fired. An occurrence not greeted with great sadness by anyone outside the Daily Mirror offices, it must be said....

An argument along the lines of 'this proof shows that this awful thing happened and we must investigate!' 'Er, OK, the proof turned out to be wrong, but this awful thing could have happened, so we still have to investigate!'

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"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views." The Doctor, Doctor Who: The Face of Evil.

The unfortunate thing is that there are many who will still believe that these documents are the real thing, just as there are those that disbelief the Apollo Landings and the Jewish Holocaust, or who claim that the Hilter Diaries or Protocols of the Leaders of Zion were indeed real documents.

Wierd as it is, that all these theories have been shown to be catagorically wrong, just makes some believe them all the more. :roll:

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Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

I've never heard claims that these Hitler diaries are indeed real documents.

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"Flying in space is risky business, but just staying on this planet is risky business too." - John Young, astronaut

CBS had four experts inspect the documents. Two of these, Linda James and Emily Will, said they raised serious questions about the documents but CBS ignored them. Another, Marcel Matley, said he could only authenticate the signature and could not say that it hadn't been pasted in. The fourth, James J. Pierce, said he was upset CBS used his PO (professional opinion) memo as proof of authenication, when it was only preminary (This as of the 17th, I don't know what he's done since).

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When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror, like his passengers.

According to one account I read the Piltdown remains were pretty seriously questioned by some of the experts of the time. They snuck past mostly on the basis that they fit the preconceptions far too well (sounds familiar). They stayed in mostly because they were kept very close and few scientists were allowed to examine more than a plaster cast.

I'm sure I remember reading that someone stuck a narwhle horn on a horse skull and caused a bit of an arguement over whether it was real or not.

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Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran