Hello all,

I've been lurking on this bulletin board (and ApolloHoax) for quite a while.

Every so often, I notice a few members wonder if it's worthwhile to even argue with HBs, since they trudge out the same 'ol arguments, and they either (a) don't listen, (b) don't understand, (c) ignore evidence, or (d) call you names (or all of the above).

Then, I'll see others reply that you continue to make your points for the sake of the lurkers.

Well, I just wanted to say that, indeed, the lurkers do watch and listen. Because of all of you (particularly Bob B and JayUtah), I understand the sheer complexities of the Apollo missions and the magnitude of the supporting detail provided. I learned so much about how to debate a point and analyze evidence.

For instance, I would've never thought of first asking someone, "What level of proof do you need? Preponderance of evidence? Beyond reasonable doubt? Beyond all doubt (which is impossible)?"

I would've never known that documents are presumed authentic until proven fake, because you can't 100% prove authenticity. Thus, even when you don't detect any fakery, you can't be sure that you've ruled out every single method.

I would've never known that the statement, "If you eliminate all false conclusions, whatever remains, no matter how impossible, must be the truth," really doesn't apply to the real world, because you can't map out every single possible scenario (except, perhaps, for some math equations).

I would've never known that analyzing photographs is such a science. I now understand that what you see in a photo is not necessarily the exact thing you'd see in person, due to focus, light collection ability, and other factors I can't think of right now. I also learned that lens flare has properties, such as symmetry around the center point. Also, I learned that pictures released for publication are not primary source, are often adjusted (cropping, changing shades, etc.), and cannot necessarily be used for investigative purposes.

And I'm really, really glad that this bulletin board exists and is so polite. I can't stand most internet bulletin boards or chat rooms, where I see rude people who can't type, and they're always making snotty or offensive remarks. I love reading posts by JayUtah and others and being amazed at how much I learn. In fact, I'm even starting to understand HUb'! (He's somehow involved with a college and making a Gravity Wave Detector, correct?)

And one more thing, my name is really an homage to JayUtah. I not only appreciate his knowledge, but also his completeness, competence, and patience with anybody wanting to learn. Jay, if the nickname is objectionable, let me know and I'll change it.

Thanks all,

--Ali

Welcome to the board AliCali!

And congratulations on such a gracious first post. =D>

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"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day." - Douglas Adams

Indeed. May the board live forever.

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Freedom For Fission A breath of fresh Iodine-131

Hi and welcome, Ali. You said it, brother!

I for one am heartened to know that this board isn't just (a) a way for us to gang up on the occasional hoax proponent, or (b) a mutual admiration society. It's great to know there are some quiet watchers who lurk and learn... really learn, not just learn about the ways of this BB, but about actual real-world things too.

One thing I like about this forum, in particular, is the way its regulars will jump in and attack a puzzling problem, and discover the reason for some non-intuitive Apollo-related phenomenon. My favorite gem of this kind is the strange "dark plume" of exhaust gasses that extends a few feet below the F-1 engines on a Saturn V, between the engine bell and the beginning of the very bright incandescent plume of exhaust gasses. Jay (and others) tracked down the answer: the turbine exhaust, which is incompletely combusted (and therefore sooty) is dumped into the main engine bell in a circumfrential ring, and acts as a coolant to protect the nozzle from the much hotter main combustion products. It hides the "real" plume for a short distance, until the latter starts to show through. Wow!

There's one person you forgot to credit in your comments, though, and he's the real reason this BB is so well-behaved: our fearless leader, the Bad Astronomer himself. Thanks again, Phil.

As a fellow former lurker turned poster I agree.

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The proceeding post was brought to you by NASA, the National Association of the Sellers of Alcohol.

Welcome to you too, erisi!

BTW, in your sig line, I think there's a typo ('were' should be 'where').

As a fellow lurker, I wholeheartedly second AliCali's post!

...And as a former poster turned lurker, I also agree.

Aporetic

AliCali,

Agreed here too, I was a long time lurker, slightly concerned with posting because I felt ill equipped to post with the other people here. However, as you have mentioned, everyone here is logical, gracious, even handed etc.

So once I had posted once or twice, I felt happy to post whenever I feel I can add a little bit of value, often with a Futurama related reference...

Hello and welcome, by the way.

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There we were in the park when suddenly some old lady says I stole her purse..... I chucked the professor at her but she kept coming..... So I had to hit her with this purse I found.
-- Bender

[DELURKING> I've said before, but thanks to Phil for hosting the board, and Jay Utah and all the other regulars. Reading posts here recalls for me those great college lecturers from manny years ago.... And, YES, debating the points here, even over and over again, is necessary. The HB'ers haven't given up trying to sell their wares, so the antidote is constantly needed.... We can't let the Western world (heck, the entire world) fall to a point where the general public takes it for granted that we didn't go to the moon. I don't think we're there yet, but it is getting scary when a few people I respect at work, and even friends, shake their heads and go "...I don't know...." So, again, this is most needed.

Regards,
cjc36
[/DELURKING>

Chalk up another WTG from me, too!

=D>

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Dave

Anyone seen my marbles? Anyone ... ?

I have also learned much just lurking here. Please keep up the good work.

Ranb

Welcome Ali, I'm glad you decided to turn from lurker to poster. There is certainly a great deal of fascinating information hidden in the pages of this forum. Hardly a week goes by in which I don't learn something new. Please don't be bashful about chiming in when you have something to say (that goes for the rest of the lurkers out there as well).

hehe, I see all the Lurkers are out in number tonight.

*sends out heaps of welcomes*

Ali, well said, and yeah, I'm a big fan of Jay's too. If I knew where in Utah he was I'd sit him down and squeeze him for every bit of Apollo knowledge he has, it'd be worth the coffee bill

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Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

Done, and done.

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The proceeding post was brought to you by NASA, the National Association of the Sellers of Alcohol.

Welcome, lurkers!

I don't own the patent on the "first name and where you live" method of inventing nicknames, so there's no need for my approval. "AliCali" is short and catchy -- great nickname.

I'm glad I've been able to help. Ultimately that's all the reward I get: people saying they see more clearly now because of what I've said or done.

I've been an advocate of lifelong learning since shortly after graduating from college. My goal is to learn a new thing every day, and a new major skill every year. This year's major skill has been wood-turning.

Keep up the good work, everyone.

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"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Remember, when you are patiently explaining things to someone who is a seagull (swoop down, drop a bomb, and fly off) and will probably never respond, we are the people who are reading the responses.

We learn stuff, then in turn we are better able to respond to 'Joe in accounting' who believes the moon landings were a hoax.

It all flows downhill, gentlemen :wink:

Well as someone who use to lurk around this place, I agree its got a lot of very good people and everyone works very hard to keep it polite. It is really great to see so many people get together and make a concerted to keep the discussion centered, polite, and professional.

I should also add that for all the jokes about JayUtah and carpet bombing... his posts are great. They are detailed, well researched, and very readable...

( and how the man keeps his temper through so much I'll never know!! :wink: )

I'll second that. One of my favorite pastimes is learning new things. In fact, my entire Web site is nothing more than one of my self-teach projects. Most of my other endeavors have yet to produce anything quite so tangible. I tend to jump around from one area of interest to another so often that I sometimes find it difficult to complete anything. Then of course there's this thing called a job that keeps getting in the way.

I also like to learn something new every day and that's why this is a great place to come. I can usually learn something about my favourtie subject, Apollo, but also about many other subjects. The few days on which I don't learn much are often made up for by others when I can learn heaps. My thanks, also, to those who help me do that.

I don't know whether it's true or not, but through observing the elderly in my small village back when I was a teenager, I decided that the day you stop learning is the day you start dying.

Thank you all for your welcomes, and for the nice comments about my initial post. It shows that this group is not only welcoming, but happy to hear various points of view, and above all, to learn through discussion and sharing.

(Oh man, I'm starting to sound like a Hallmark card.)

I notice one myth that's hard to overcome. I see some posters believing that if they have a different point of view, that they will automatically be shunned or banned. So long as they bother to read the various posts, they will see that this is not the case. I see those who believe in astrology or that the Big Bang Theory is incorrect. One of my favorite parts is when the proponents of astrology or opponents of Big Bang don't just say, "You're stupid, just believe me," but rather show WHY. Heck, we even have people who believe the Earth is the true center of the universe, and everything rotates around it. I have not seen anyone with those beliefs banned just because that's what they believe.

I'd like to see smart Apollo HBs that use evidence to back their claims, but I'm not surprised that I don't see it. There is just too much overwhelming evidence that you have to conclude a 99.99% chance that the missions actually happened.

How many other historical events have as much evidence as the Apollo missions?