Here's a claim I haven't heard before, any responses? I'm not entirely sure what they are going on about so I can't answer it straight off, it does sound wrong though.

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Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

What are these experiments? If not done with an original glove, they are pretty pointless.
And while the cabin pressure was 5psi, suit pressure was 3.5psi, that's a lot less than claimed.

Harald

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That's from the late William Cooper. Given the rest of Cooper's statements on the subject, which are pure fantasy and ignorance, I think it's safe to say that no such experiments were actually done and he's just making it up.

Since Cooper died a number of years ago in true militia fashion (a hail of police bullets after he shot an officer in the head who tried to serve him with papers) it's safe to say that he had no knowledge of Ralph Rene's experiment, which was wrong for many reasons.

The notion that no mechanical or design aids were provided to increase dexterity and mobility is pure hogwash. Obviously Mr. Cooper never studied any kind of space suit. If you take away the outer covering, the suit is nothing but mobility aids.

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No they don't. The pressure was more like 3.5 psi.

That's correct, the gloves had no mechanical, hydraulic, or electrical devices. But they did have bulbous "constant volume joints" at the knuckles. When a normal glove is bent the volume is reduced, thus increasing the internal pressure and resisting the bending. The constant volume joints allowed the glove to flex while not significantly reducing the volume inside the glove, thus providing little resistance to the movement.

What experiments? By whom? Using the actual Apollo gloves? This might be a reference to Ralph Rene's "glove box" experiment. If so, the experiment is invalid because he uses a regular "tubular" type glove without constant volume joints.

They used their hands and fingers, but not normally. There were some limitations to what they could do.

And what evidence do they use to reach this conclusion? Do they say the gloves are not pressurized because the astronauts can be seen bending them? If so, then this is circular reasoning.

This is just a bunch of meaningless fluff that's not applicable to the problem.

If you get the NASA Special Publication "Bioenergetics of Space Suits for Lunar Exploration", NASA SP-84, you will see that mobility are clear part of the design. BTW, published in 1964.

Here's a photograph of someone using the glove box at JSC.

Thanks for that all.

I guess the reason it didn't make sense to me was because it really was senseless.

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Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

Keep in mind too that shuttle and space station astronauts work in gloves in the vacuum of space. It is tough work, no doubt, but not impossible.

That's correct, the gloves had no mechanical, hydraulic, or electrical devices. But they did have bulbous "constant volume joints" at the knuckles.

That, in my mind, qualifies as a "mechanical device" since it is the mechanical engineer who invents it. Mechanical engineering doesn't just mean mechanisms. A non-moving part with exactly the right properties of elasticity and geometry is as much a "mechanical" solution as anything else.

This might be a reference to Ralph Rene's "glove box" experiment.

Perhaps. Rene did the experiment on television in 2003, but Cooper (the author of the original quote) died in 2001. Rene might have done the experiment in one of his traveling lectures earlier.

They used their hands and fingers, but not normally. There were some limitations to what they could do.

There is a great video clip (the mission number eludes me) of an astronaut trying to pick up a fairly large rock and being unable to grasp it. He has to "roll" it up his leg and torso.

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It is likely that they are trying to say that there is no form of servo-movement aiding device. Such devices could conceivably be actuators based on any number of energy sources, for example electric(or rather electromechanical), hydraulic(hydromechanical) or pneumatic(phneumomechanical). or perhaps something based on springs, levers and wires. Though I to would call constant pressure joints on different spacesuit parts a mechanical aid, and quite ingenious, a simple and effective solution. Of course mechanical assisted or remote controlled devices are cool, but they would be a problem if they failed. It might not be easy to get inside and get your suit of if you could not grip anything.

I wonder how they can say wether the gloves are pressurized or not... Perhaps they have been blowing up normal rubber gloves and think all pressurized gloves would have to be like balloons. I expect that with the proper restraint one might be able to inflate even normal gloves to quite high pressure above ambient without them turning into balloons.

I would guess one could quite comfortably use un-pressurized gloves on spacesuits, as long as they have enough mechanical pressure. Perhaps it would even be possible to use gloves without even mechanical pressure for short times, though they probably need a suit that is made so that it do not leak, and it would probably not be very good for ones health for long.

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Pure mechanical pressure suits have been experimented with - i.e., from the neck down use only strength of the material to provide pressure to the body.

Related to the gloves, take a regular round balloon, put it in a sock, and try to blow it up. I bet you run into problems as soon as the balloon reaches the dimensions of the sock. The gloves did have mechanical aids. Outside the rubberized pressure bladder layer, there is a layer of cloth that has laces on the back of the hand of the glove, under the outer garment. These laces allow the glove to be cinched tight to the palm of the hand. This prevents glove ballooning. The constant volume joints allow the fingers to bend without increasing pressure and therefore resistance. The restraint layer keeps the pressure layer restrained.

Also, the gloves are custom items. (Actually, all suits prior to the Shuttle suits were custom, but now only the gloves remain custom.) The rubber pressure bladder layer is made from a mold of the actual astronauts' hands. These ensure that the glove truly does "fit like a glove"*.

*I've always been confused by that statement. It's supposed to mean it fits well, but whenever I get gloves they always have misshapen fingers and such so they inevitably rub someplace. I mean, fingers don't really conform to any set standard - some people have really long middle fingers while others are almost even with the others, some have the same length for first and third fingers while others have longer third fingers, etc. I myself always seem to have trouble with the pinky. Either the finger is too long (with empty fingertip extended), or the seam at the crease between pinky and third finger digs in to my hand. Finding gloves that are comfortable off the rack is an inevitable nightmare of trying them on and picking the set that least annoys. Fits like a glove. Yeah, that's comfortable.

There is a great video clip (the mission number eludes me) of an astronaut trying to pick up a fairly large rock and being unable to grasp it. He has to "roll" it up his leg and torso.

Scott uses the technique when he collects Great Scott.

But the video that really springs to mind is Duke collecting Big Muley at Station 1.
And check out the nice spray of soil from the scoop as Duke stands up.

There was one research program in which one guy parachuted off a helium balloon that flew very high. He had to use a pressure suit at that altitude, and the pressurization of one hand failed. Not really vacuum, but close - his hand was somewhat swollen, numb and unusable until he returned to higher atmospheric pressure in his dive. Not very workable as a design feature for a spacesuit, obviously.

That would be Joe Kittinger who parachuted from a height of 102,800 feet in 1960. (At that altitude the air pressure is about 0.14 PSI.) In this Web page he describes his ascent as follows:

There has been quite a bit of work on mechanical counter pressure suits over the years. They have enormous potential over conventional gas pressure suits - they are lighter, more flexible, safer, leak less, more comfortable, require less consumables, more easily repaired. Hybrid suits are also possible - gas pressurised torso, MCP limbs, or simply MCP gloves. MCP technology will probably be essential for the exploration of the moon and Mars. The Apollo suits were good enough for the task , but still tiring and painful for extended use. Modern gloves are not much improvement.

Cheers

Jon

The irony of this is that designing a good spacesuit glove is especially hard and the Apollo ones just weren't very good. They were bulky and the "constant volume" wasn't all that constant. As others here have mentioned, they WERE a challenge to use - exactly what you would expect given the pressure issue.

NASA has tried to put through a "Centennial Challenge" program with a prize for (among other things) a better spacesuit glove. A glove box is easy to build, and this sort of thing would be a great engineering project for a University. Unfortunately, NASA hasn't had much luck in getting approval for the prize scheme. I think it would be a great way to get the public involved, would be very cheap, and could turn up something useful.

One of the possibilities is a hybrid "skin suit" glove with a conventional pressure suit. The skin is exposed to vacuum, but the glove material applies extra tension to the skin. The human body has the "constant volume" trick down cold, so this effectively sidesteps the issue. The "skin suit" concept is great, but is difficult to apply to the rest of the body. The gotcha is that you would have to keep the main suit pressure down to 5 psi or below. To avoid bends, that means you either have to stay at low pressure in the spacecraft, or have a lengthy prebreathing period.

NASA's current suits, along with the gloves, are a bit better than the Apollo models, but still pretty hard to move in. The other possibility is a full "hard suit" design, somewhat like the ones used underwater:

http://www.onr.navy.mil/focus/blowba...mersibles3.htm

They can operate at higher pressure, but again, at high pressure glove design is a challenge.

Anyway, the point is that pressure is basic to and one of the primary problems for spacesuit design. There's no way you could hide the use of fake gloves. Also, don't forget other evidence - such as falling dust spray, which did NOT move like it would in an atmosphere.

Jon, I hadn't seen your comment before I posted mine - hence some of the duplication.

For anyone, if you search Google for "space skinsuit" you'll turn up quite a bit on the skinsuit concept. It has been used extensively in science fiction, but is a real concept. The big issues currently - it is difficult to get one to fit well EVERYWHERE, it has to be fitted extremely carefully (don't gain weight!) and is only practical at low pressure.

My bet for advanced suits will be a mostly hardsuit design. The gloves may be soft with an active volume adjustment scheme (computer controlled pressure bladders or some such).

I wonder if one could make a suit like that and make it adapt to its user if one used something like those electrically variable fibers used for robotics...

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Read any biography by a Gemini/Apollo era EVA astronaut, and they will describe how tough the gloves were on the hands and fingers. They trained by carrying tennis balls around for months, squeezing them to strengthen their fingers. I believe Dave Scott (A15) had his nails blackened from bruising due to working for hours in the gloves. The gloves were hard to use, but not impossible.

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