I'm not holding my breath waiting for Cosmic Dave to tear himself away from his ictheology(sp?) texts and answer the Apollo questions. (You ain't gonna learn 18 years worth of ichthyology fast enough to fool anyone here, CD.)
However, I think many of us here can remember being immature and idealistic, so I don't begrudge him his opinions on government spending priorities. My priorities wouldn't be the same as his, but we can all have an opinion - and I doubt any of us would see the pattern of government spending to be precisely as we, as individuals, would choose.

I am curious, however as to why countries that didn't have, and still don't have a space program still have poverty, disease, crime and drug addicts. I know the UK space program didn't suck all the money out of the National Health system! Gee, CD - if only all the time you spent building and maintaining a website or typing posts into a forum such as this were spent on community service, imagine how much better the lot of the old or disadvantaged would be. PRIORITIES, man.

Exactly. Things like bacterial and fungal spores are much more of a concern due to being able to live something like 40 years in soil and survive boiling temperatures.

I know you have been involved in the making of spacecraft Jay, are you familiar with all the precautions taken to keep them microbe free? K. Venkateswaran (can't remember his first name for the life of me) gave a talk at the symposium about the microbe diversity in assembly facilities. Quite amazing the precautions they take to keep microbes to a minimum.

[quote]
On 2002-06-27 20:09, RalphVanDyke wrote:
I am just guessing .... Kasthuri ?? [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[quote]
On 2002-06-27 20:18, Solar Flare wrote:
lol, yes! Venkat! That's right, its all flooding back to me now. You'll have to forgive me, it was a busy week. All the seminars I attended seemed to mesh together.

Jay said: ‘You want us to believe that NASA just grabbed $30 billion that had been earmarked for what you believe were worthier causes and ****ed it all away. In fact, the American public spent $30 billion on Apollo because that's where the American public wanted that money spent. If they had wanted $30 billion or $50 billion or $100 billion spent on cancer research, they would have made it happen’

That’s the biggest load of crap you’ve written so far Jay. So there was a referendum of the American public and the majority voted to spend the money on the Apollo missions did they? What a load of toss… Am I to assume that this so-called interested American public were the same people complaining about the Apollo missions interrupting ‘I Love Lucy’?..

How exactly would the American public have made the Government spend the money on Cancer research if the Government are the ones holding the purse strings?

Jay Quote: ‘You want it to sound like the Big Bad Government is taking our money away and spending it where we don't want it spent. (Which is rather a silly point of view for you, being a subject of the U.K.)’

What are you trying to say?

Jay Quote: ‘The preparation to travel through space necessitates engineering advances which have already been applied -- and continue to be applied -- to the field of medicine. If medical advancement is your yardstick today, the space program was there to carry its share of the weight.’

What the hell are you talking about? What has space exploration to do with the field of medicine? Tell me one single cure that has been the result of space travel.

Jay’s response about flu coming from space: ‘Perhaps that was the belief among conspiracy theorists. In fact, epidemiologists and microbiologists consider the possibility of spaceborne infection to be extremely low. Microorganisms must evolve alongside the complex organisms they are to affect, therefore organisms from space are not likely to have any effect on earth biology. Nevertheless there is a great deal of unfounded public hysteria over the thought of infection from space, and conspiracy theorists sometimes use that to continue fostering fear, uncertainty, and doubt in their audiences. The influenza virii mutate easily and occasionally produce extremely virulent or contagious strains (e.g., the 1917 pandemic). Particularly acute outbreaks of influenza are not evidence of extraterrestrial origin.’

Sorry but your completely wrong… not only in your beliefs that flu cannot come from an extraterrestrial origin, but also with your date of the 1918 pandemic. Perhaps you’d like to read the following from The Guardian Newspaper. Don’t you yanks get any decent news over there? No conspiracy theories here I’m afraid, just scientific fact – hey it was from Sir Fred Hoyle, the famous astrophysicist too! Hmm…. Guess you might believe him then! I think an apology for your ignorance is in order here…

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Distributi...4154%2C00.html

Flu comes from outer space, claim scientists

Flu epidemic: special report

Stuart Millar
Wednesday January 19, 2000
The Guardian

It made the festive season a misery for many and threw NHS policy into crisis. But the flu may have worse in store, according to scientists who claim to have discovered an alarming explanation for the epidemic - a virus from outer space.
Dismissing as dogma the conventional medical wisdom that flu is a virus passed by human contact, the distinguished astrophysicist Sir Fred Hoyle, and his colleague at Cardiff university, Chandra Wickramasinghe, warn that we may be on the brink of a global epidemic.
In a report to be published in the journal Current Science, they claim the outbreak was caused by dust deposited high in the atmosphere by passing comets being forced down to earth by energy generated by cooler patches on the sun's surface, known as sunspots.
They reach the peak of their activity, the maxima, every 11 years, coinciding, the scientists say, with all major flu outbreaks since 1761, including the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic blamed for 20m deaths worldwide. The latest cycle began to peak in September and the maxima is due sometime this year.
__________________________________________________ __
Jay Quote: ‘The answer, of course, is that none of these "miracle" cures actually works. You get anecdotal evidence that proves nothing and gives false hope to cancer patients. ‘

And your information about this came from where? As I have said, I have seen many claims both on the internet and on programs such as ‘Unsolved Mysteries’ of cures for cancer. It’s obvious that you haven’t, but would rather fob off my claim rather than check it out. I have many friends in the medical industry and know for a fact that some things the scientific community just doesn’t want to know about – lets remember that scientists and their discoveries are all about funding, if you don’t stay in line then the funding is simply cut off! We have a really good radio show here hosted by James Whale (similar to Rense and Bell) who has had at least 2 people on his show with cures for cancer that have been proved to work. Don’t ask me why they are not openly marketed – write to your local Government.

Jay Quote: ‘ Personally, your emerging ideal of a welfare state where my hard-earned tax dollars go to keep some crack addict supplied with drugs is a pretty frightening prospect.’

And again you are making accusations without even knowing me personally or my political stance. Actually I am 100% against any drug use – so stop making assumptions.

Dave C Quote: ‘(You ain't gonna learn 18 years worth of ichthyology fast enough to fool anyone here, CD.)’

Are you calling me a liar! My family has been studying and selling ornamental fish since 1972. It’s a family business. Of course you know me personally, I forgot – idiot.

Dave C Quote ‘I am curious, however as to why countries that didn't have, and still don't have a space program still have poverty, disease, crime and drug addicts.

Its called the facts of life – Those Countries I assume you are talking about are Africa and Asia I suspect, and have the above mainly due as a result of the hot climate and over breeding. Us Brits should know because our Government is always sending aid packages to them. They don’t have a space programme because of poverty. They have a drug, crime and disease problem because of poverty too. The drugs are an escape from reality and money gained from crimes buy the drugs. America does have a space programme however, and it still has poverty, disease, crime and drug addicts – in fact it probably has the worst cases of drug and crime in whole world.. so what’s your point?

I really like how America tries to tell everyone else how to live – get your own house in order first mate before criticising other countries. Yeah, we get ‘Cops’ over here too!

That’s the biggest load of crap you’ve written so far Jay.

You can call it whatever names you want, but it doesn't make your point of view any more realistic.

So there was a referendum of the American public and the majority voted to spend the money on the Apollo missions did they?

That was not my claim. The American public exerts its governmental authority through several means, not limited to referenda.

That is all I'm going to say on this point because I want you to address the Apollo questions.

What the hell are you talking about? What has space exploration to do with the field of medicine?

Because technology developed for one purpose can be adapted for other purposes. And NASA is quite active in medical research because manned space exploration requires an extensive medical understanding.

Tell me one single cure that has been the result of space travel.

Straw man. That is not my argument. My argument is that money spend ostensibly on space research produces broad-spectrum benefits that include advancements in medical understanding.

I think an apology for your ignorance is in order here.

Not in the least. You have the opinion of one astrophysicist speaking outside his field of expertise, offering speculation which the article admits runs contrary to medical knowledge.

Far from being "completely wrong," as you imply, I am reflecting the prevailing opinion of the relevant scientists, which is confirmed by your article. To wit:

"Dismissing as dogma the conventional medical wisdom that flu is a virus passed by human contact ..."

Vector studies of viral epidemiology and immunology are not merely "conventional medical wisdom", they are conclusively documented scientific findings. The rest of the article goes on to establish a correlation but does nothing to address causation. That's not complete science. Where is Dr. Hoyle's vector study? I can point you to reams of vector studies for the influenza virus that confirms beyond any reasonable doubt how it is transmitted.

That's all I'm planning to say on the subject of space virology. You have heard the opinions here of people who have training in that area. Now please address the Apollo questions.

I have seen many claims both on the internet and on programs such as ‘Unsolved Mysteries’ of cures for cancer.

So now the uncontrolled internet and a tabloid television program are sources of scientific data? You are really quite amazing, Mr. Cosnette. You have absolutely no concept of what constitutes a rigorous examination.

Since cancer can spontaneously go into remission, simply correlating some arbitrary action to the remediation of cancer without establishing causation is insufficient. This is why anecdotal evidence is not proof.

That's all I'm going to say on the subject of "miracle" cures for cancer.

Actually I am 100% against any drug use – so stop making assumptions.

Perhaps that was Mr. Gant's argument. If so, I apologize for attributing it to you.

I really like how America tries to tell everyone else how to live – get your own house in order first mate before criticising other countries.

If this is your belief, why are you trying to tell us how to spend our public funds? If laissez-faire is your philosophy, then laissez alone our space program and mind your own business.

You have now made several posts which contain nothing whatsoever applicable to your claims regarding Apollo. I am forced to conclude you have no answers for the objections raised concerning them.

[edit to remove most of post - Jay beat me to it! [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif[/img] ]

C-Dave - How about addressing the Questions you've been asked about Apollo.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SpacedOut on 2002-06-28 14:25 ]</font>

I see ZERO data there other than a vague correlation of sun spot data to flu epidemics. There is also a correlation between ice cream sales and murder, does ice cream make one homicidal? Show me data.

Besides, he is an astrophysicist, not an astrophysician or biologist, or even better a MICRO biologist. Being preeminent in one field of science doesn't make you an expert in all of them. Stephen Hawking is a preeminent cosmologist, maybe I should ask him for diet advice huh?

Like biology, paleontology, geology and a number of other "ologies", ichthyology is a branch of science. I'm not calling you a liar - but being in the retail ornamental fish business isn't what you implied in your earlier post in which you claimed to be an "ictheologist". My apologies. It still doesn't bring you any closer to answering the questions you've been asked about Apollo, though.

My point is your silly argument that the world would somehow be a better place had the U.S. not spent money on a space program. Paraphrasing your arguments: some countries don't have a space program because of poverty: America has poverty because of a space program.
The UK has poverty and doesn't have a space program. Clearly there's no connection between the two, despite your desperate handwaving to show there is.

Why won't you answer the Apollo questions you've been asked, and why won't you correct the obvious errors, to which your attention has been drawn, on your website?

Can ornamental fish be eaten by the poor? If not, why would you and your family be diverting wealth away from such a worthwhile cause (looking after the disadvantaged) by giving the wealthy something totally useless and unnecessary to waste their money on.
(See how silly your arguments look when they are turned back on you?)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DaveC on 2002-06-28 14:42 ]</font>

Dave,

In response to my post concerning...
<blockquote>Your assertion that Kaysing was "head of advanced research" at Rocketdyne
Your claim that rover film footage was shot by the video camera shown in the film footage.
Your claim that Van Allen Belt radiation would have killed the Apollo crews.
Your claim that moon rocks gathered in situ are indistinguishable from meteoric moon rocks.</blockquote>
...you provided the following substantive evidence:
<blockquote>[sound of crickets chirping]</blockquote>

I am tired of going through this thread and deleting inappropriate words.

If you cannot communicate with each other without using name-calling and bad words, then stop trying. Got it?

This thread is locked.

__________________
Phil Plait
The Bad Astronomer
http://www.badastronomy.com
badastro@badastronomy.com