Time Speed & Gravity


LINK
Copyrighted material deleted by The Bad Astronomer (see my post below)

The above is from an other web site, that I copypasted here.
There's some things that support this theory, like a book by Wernher von
Braun called Space Frontier, which consists of his articles written for a
certain American popular science magazine in 1963, 1964,1965, 1966 and 1967.
In the chapter where he writes about manned missions to Mars, he lists
several requirements for the spacecraft sending men to Mars. Two of the
requirements are:

- place for the crew that is rotating around its center, where the pilots
can be trough their journey in artificial gravity.

- if the aforementioned cannot be produced as a permanet, throughout the journey functioning system, there must be available at least a device
based on centrifugal force, in which at least from time to time can be
achieved the same.


So, if gravity inside the spacecraft would be necessary for sending man
to Mars, isn't it necessary for sending a man to the moon also?
I think it is.

So you're saying that "life processes" are somehow related back to earth-time, and away from that they stop?

Acccording your first premise, about the relationship between time and gravity, wouldn't the living organism simply age at a different rate than a counterpart on earth?

Keep in mind that we have numerous spacecraft at varying distances from earth, and in greatly varying gravity fields. All signals and telemetry from them is at the rate expected. It also appears their internal clocks are still keeping "earth-time". Surely this would affect them also, and not only living things?

Also, astronauts in orbit experience "Free fall", while not technically zero-g gives the same result of no gravity. According to your theory, they should al be dead.

Gravitation is more or less appropriate for life
processes only within 1,000 kilometers from Earth. At longer distances,
gravitation decreases, time flows more slowly, and life processes slow
down.
In orbit they are within 1000 kilometers from earth. Also, astronauts can survive small periods of time in zero-g or near zero-g.

Define "small period". There have been astronauts/cosmonauts in orbit for periods of longer than one year with no major or unexpected medical problems resulting from weightlessness.

That is surely enough time to go to the moon, and perhaps Mars. If you are going to back this up, you need to be a little more precise.

Not to earth time, but the earth gravity.

It seems that you didn't fully understand the post. Read it again. It has nothing to do with time measured with clocks and calendars.

Welcome Voyager!

Could you provide a website reference? Anyway, the flow of time on Mars or on the moon is essentially the same as on the Earth. It sounds like this fellow has a wildly distorted view of general relativity. There can be noticeable time slowing effects in an extreme gravity well (such as near a black hole) or at extreme velocity (near the speed of light) as viewed by an observer "at rest" in deep space. You won't find those extreme effects at normal velocities or with the modest gravity wells of the planets of the solar system.

I think you came to some incorrect conclusions.

On page 61 (chapter 2) of the paperback copy of the book, he begins the section "The Strange World of Zero Gravity." He points out that gravity isn't actually gone, it is more complex than that. He points out that is quite possible to live in "weightlessness."

On the bottom of page 64, starting at the bottom of the next to last paragraph, he writes:

When this was written, there wasn't much experience with long stays in space. That isn't true today. There is some loss in bone density and muscle mass in the long term. It can be a long term health issue in multi year stays, and research continues on various methods of control which could include drugs and special exercise. Centrifigul spacecraft designs increase complexity greatly, and may be helpful, but aren't a requirement. In any event, it has nothing to do with any supposed radical "time flow" issue that the website you quoted mentioned, it is spefically a physiological issue when exposed to weightlessness anywhere, and is not important in the short term.

Looks like the text is from here:
http://www.weeklyuniverse.com/skies/skies6.htm

Further down the page is a link to a story claiming to prove the existance of a "communist vampire conspiracy".

Von Braun was a smart man and a great rocket scientist and engineer with a tremendous public presence. His authorship in a general circulation magazine could draw readers to somewhat obscure subjects and broaden the public understanding of the issues in space travel. However when writing about the physiological effects of space travel he was not writing about a subject that was within his field of expertise. Undoubtedly, von Braun was familiar with the issues at that time and probably reported the then present state of knowledge, but that does not make him a good source for supporting any current theory.

__________________
Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes an annual free trip around the Sun.

The author of the article in the above link is our old friend Der Voron, author of other such articles as “How to distinguish a real UFO photograph from a fake?” and “Were Cro-Magnons Bio-Engineered By E.T.'S?” Well that explains a lot.

__________________
Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes an annual free trip around the Sun.

Voyager, posting copyrighted material (even from someone like Der Voron) is strictly against the rules here, and is a banning offense. Read the FAQ.

Also, Der Voron is well-known on this board as someone who cannot get within a glancing blow of reality. Try the board search engine on his name to find out more.

__________________
Phil Plait
The Bad Astronomer
http://www.badastronomy.com
badastro@badastronomy.com

Der Voron, by his own admission, has no scientific or technical education. Nor does he seem to be especially teachable. English is not his first language, so that makes it hard to converse with him. But I spent two hours a day for two months trying to teach him the basic principles of rocketry via e-mail, and he never got any closer to a proper understanding of it than he did to start with. I have never seen anyone so frankly determined to remain ignorant.

But if you can get around his prolific pen and his complete lack of understanding of, well, just about everything, he's very humorous. Great entertainment value.

__________________
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams
Clavius Moon Base

Interesting. Very interesting. So, you're insinuating that time stops in a null gravitational field.

So, what happens in an infinite field?

Or how about just a really, really strong one?

I think you're talking about gravitational red/blue shifting. Only you're doing it as well as I could in talking about the finer details of a fungal infection. Or the Jewish calendar.

You need to learn the word "relative". As in time differences observed due to gravity or speed are relative to the observers. Two people in a constant, strong gravitational field will observe time to pass for each other at the same rate as if they were in a field of zero strength together. You only notice an issue with the passage of time when the two observers are in gravitational fields of different strengths. In that case, the person in the stronger field will observe time passing more quickly for the person in the weaker field, and the observer in the weaker field will observe time passing more slowly for the person in the stronger field.

Now, to me, this seems to imply the opposite of what you're claiming.

But still, let's give you the benifit of the doubt here. Now, let's consider the person in a low gravitational field. Time is passing slowly for them. Time. Not their life processes, but rather time itself. Metabolism still takes place at the exact same rate! The only difference is that the temporal ruler is a different size.

Let's pretend I stop time for you. You have absolutely no way of knowing that time has stopped for you. No time has passed for you to observe this. Even if time was passing very slowly for you, you'd observe everyone else to be aging at a remarkable rate. Your body processes, to you, have not stopped nor have they been retarded. There's no reason that you would stop living.

Now, keep time going at the same rate and then slow your metabolic processes and suddenly your body chemistry goes haywire, and you drop dead.

I'm going to guess at this point that you've not considered why such "artificial gravity" might be considered important. You've concluded already that gravity is needed for your heart to beat, so being where there is "no gravity" means you drop dead. Anyone saying that some sort of gravity will be required is obviously doing so for the reasons you already believe.

But spinning a body in no way creates gravity. When you spin a bucket of water around, so that it's upside down above your head, the water does not stay in the bucket because you've created gravity in the opposite direction. Rather, you've already flung the water in the bucket upward. It stays above your head because it's trying to move in the direction you've thrown it. It doesn't keep going up because the bottom of the bucket is in the way.

The reason why such resistance is required on long space trips for people is because muscles atrophy when not in use (your legs do a lot of work fighting against gravity on Earth), and bone has been found to breakdown while you're inactive in space. These rotating chambers are there for exercise purposes. You don't want to land on Mars after 18 months and discover that you're incapable of standing.

Why was this not required during the lunar missions? They weren't in space long enough to really care.


And I think a proper lunch break is required between my classes, but this semester my timetable seems to disagree. And since it knows when my classes are, I guess it's boss.

__________________
"I'm making wheatloaf. It's like meatloaf, only with wheat"
"Isn't that just...bread?"

The reason spin gravity has been suggested for Mars missions is to counter the effects of zero gravity, not to keep time going!

Jon

So, do you have any evidence or theory that supports the assertion that time works in this way?

What you are saying requires Relativity to be wrong.

Of course he's right. Der Voron is smarterer than Einstein.

Actually with really good "atomic clocks", such as a Cesium Fountain, we can measure the time dialation between two floors of a building. Albeit it's very tiny! :-)

The equation is: The square root of one minus V squared divided by C squared, Where V is your velocity and C is the speed of light. Don't forget Einstein's Principle of Equivalence.

http://www.phy.syr.edu/courses/modul...uivalence.html

Yeah. According to Einstein's theory, the speed of light and the speed of gravity are the same. This has now in 2004 been proved that Einstein was right by two scientists. I don't have a link to this but I read it from some science website.

So, one could think that, when the moon has 1/6 of earths gravity, also the speed of light on the moon is 1/6 (or something like that, but definately slower) of that it is here on earth (Einstein: Speed of light and the speed of gravity are the same). And since the speed of light is a measure of time, time "flows" slower on the moon than on earth.