Bad Astronomy readers scary encounter with Hoagland fan

SpaceCadet1969 · #1 (**permalink**) 17-March-2005, 11:09 PM

....... and the Hoagland fan is actually our friends co-worker .......

http://www.livejournal.com/users/zorkfox/83730.html

A few weeks ago, one of my co-workers--whom I shall call Ron--discovered that I am an amateur astronomer. (How he did this is a side story which I won't relate at this time.) He gave me the URL to a Web site he said was full of good information supported by people with doctorates and degrees and experience. I thought, . o O ( Well, that sounds great, but I'll give him the URL of a site I like in return, then we can both talk about it. ) Ron pointed me at Enterprise Mission (warning: high image content and poor site design--everything is right on the front page). I pointed Ron at Bad Astronomy (a few site navigation issues, but basically a sound place).

Now, being a regular Bad Reader, I knew something of the (dodgy) Enterprise Mission already, but being that I like to know both sides of a situation or argument, I thought I'd go have another look. At least, I thought, I can brush up on the most recent nonsense and thus be better-equipped to speak with Ron when next we met at work. To his credit, Ron DID actually have a look at Bad Astronomy. But, when he approached me over the next few days, he was almost shouting--as though I had, in some way, insulted his personal hero. He talked about how Bad Astronomy didn't actually PROVE any of Enterprise Mission's claims wrong, but instead just SAID they were wrong (which isn't true).

(....................................)

For a little while, I tried talking to Ron on my own, rather than relying entirely on the Bad Astronomy information, but I discovered that debating things with a pseudoscientist is next to impossible. Not only did Ron actually swear at me and raise his voice, but he seems to know the ins and outs of the "theories" pretty well, while my knowledge of the nonsense is pretty minimal: therefore, it's impossible for me to argue against every point he might bring up. This single-minded behavior puzzled me. I agree with the Bad Astronomy pages because they make the most sense. Would I LIKE for the solar system to be strewn with the leavings of previous inhabitants? Sure! That would be amazing! But in the face of so much evidence to the contrary, how can a pseudoscientist maintain his religious fervor?

It took me a while to figure it out, but I think I've got it.

(................................................. .......)

This, I think, is where the psuedoscientists are getting their energy to continue fighting. I'm not prepared to say that everything they spout is incorrect--there's an excellent debunking of the "Apollo Moon Landing Was A Hoax!" theory, written by the Enterprise Mission's "principal investigator," Richard Hoagland. My view of the universe is it's sufficiently strange that anything might, in fact, be waiting out there. But I want to see some evidence before I believe it, and I think it's plenty strange already without our having to see aliens behind every surface feature of every non-terrestrial worldlet.

Peter B · #2 (**permalink**) 18-March-2005, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceCadet1969

....... and the Hoagland fan is actually our friends co-worker .......

http://www.livejournal.com/users/zorkfox/83730.html

To his credit, Ron DID actually have a look at Bad Astronomy. But, when he approached me over the next few days, he was almost shouting--as though I had, in some way, insulted his personal hero. He talked about how Bad Astronomy didn't actually PROVE any of Enterprise Mission's claims wrong, but instead just SAID they were wrong (which isn't true).

(....................................)

For a little while, I tried talking to Ron on my own, rather than relying entirely on the Bad Astronomy information, but I discovered that debating things with a pseudoscientist is next to impossible. Not only did Ron actually swear at me and raise his voice, but he seems to know the ins and outs of the "theories" pretty well, while my knowledge of the nonsense is pretty minimal: therefore, it's impossible for me to argue against every point he might bring up. This single-minded behavior puzzled me. I agree with the Bad Astronomy pages because they make the most sense. Would I LIKE for the solar system to be strewn with the leavings of previous inhabitants? Sure! That would be amazing! But in the face of so much evidence to the contrary, how can a pseudoscientist maintain his religious fervor?

G'day SpaceCadet1969, and welcome to the BABB.

In response to your sad story, I'd suggest a couple of things. Firstly, if you have the inclination to keep chatting to Ron, ask him if he thinks that raising his voice and swearing at you makes his arguments any stronger. Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, ask him if there's any evidence he can think of which would make him change his mind. If he says there's nothing, he's lost the argument and you needn't discuss things any further. Otherwise, explain to him the sort of evidence you think would make you change *your* mind. Thirdly, you might as well do some research. I know from personal experience that I've spent many pleasurable hours at the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal site, learning about Apollo to debunk the Hoax Believers.

The Supreme Canuck · #3 (**permalink**) 18-March-2005, 03:28 AM

Welcome to the board, SpaceCadet1969.

You may want to take a look at www.clavius.org

Maybe point your friend there too.

W.F. Tomba · #4 (**permalink**) 18-March-2005, 03:47 AM

Just to clarify, SpaceCadet1969, is that your blog, just something you ran across online, or what?

Psi-less · #5 (**permalink**) 18-March-2005, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.F. Tomba

Just to clarify, SpaceCadet1969, is that your blog, just something you ran across online, or what?

And if it is your blog, you can always point "Ron" this way to discuss things. Well, you might advise him to read the FAQ first--swearing won't get him anywhere here but a quick boot off.

Psi-less

tbm · #6 (**permalink**) 21-March-2005, 04:00 AM

Excuse me for a minute, I must do a Google search on hydrogen hydroxide antidotes as I think I got some on me when I was washing my hands a few minutes ago............... :roll:

tbm

AGN Fuel · #7 (**permalink**) 21-March-2005, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbm

Excuse me for a minute, I must do a Google search on hydrogen hydroxide antidotes as I think I got some on me when I was washing my hands a few minutes ago............... :roll:

tbm

Speak to my pool man. He did a chemical analysis of my pool last weekend and apparently I have got quite a bit of hydrogen hydroxide as well as measurable quantities of Dihydrogen Monoxide.

Guy was really good though - he only charged me $250 to fix it up so that I could swim safely again. Nothing in there now but good old fashioned water.......

The Supreme Canuck · #8 (**permalink**) 21-March-2005, 05:21 AM

Boy, it must have gotten in there from contaminated rain! Make sure you use that pool cover...

BTW, did you know that Dihydrogen Monoxide is also a greenhouse gas?

jfribrg · #9 (**permalink**) 21-March-2005, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Supreme Canuck

Boy, it must have gotten in there from contaminated rain! Make sure you use that pool cover...

BTW, did you know that Dihydrogen Monoxide is also a greenhouse gas?

And a major component of acid rain.

Nicolas · #10 (**permalink**) 21-March-2005, 04:24 PM

About your pool: do you use ground water, or water from a stream to fill it? Because dihydrogen monoxide is found in almost all waterways and lakes of the Western world. (I LOVE that site! that pic with the dihydrogen monoxide contaminated industrial waste

.)

die Nullte · #11 (**permalink**) 21-March-2005, 06:58 PM

SpaceCadet1969: When arguing with a pseudoscientist/conspiracy believer (choose any conspiracy or pseudoscience topic) you will forever be at a disadvantage. These people concentrate on minutia, much of which will be unfamiliar to you, since you never thought the things they point at were potential sources of controversy. So they are forever bringing up little things and challenging you to "Explain this if you can!" In the Apollo Hoax arena, it often takes the form of photographic anomalies. As soon as you explain one to the satisfaction of most bystanders, the HB will produce another photo of a funny shadow and demand that you explain it. It just goes on and on. I'm no expert on the Hoagland phenomenon, but most of the "tools" and "artifacts" these people see on the moon or on Mars elicit from me a "You've got to be kidding!" reaction. But people build careers with this stuff.

AGN Fuel · #12 (**permalink**) 21-March-2005, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolas

About your pool: do you use ground water, or water from a stream to fill it? Because dihydrogen monoxide is found in almost all waterways and lakes of the Western world. (I LOVE that site! that pic with the dihydrogen monoxide contaminated industrial waste

.)

Yes, it's a serious problem. We recently had a drought here in Australia and according to this expert, the reservoir on our property was chock-a-block full of dehydrated dihydrogen monoxide. Then, after a couple of days of solid rain, the reservoir apparently became contaminated with the re-hydrated dihydrogen monoxide. Looks like we are going to have to pump it all out and start again......... #-o

JayUtah · #13 (**permalink**) 21-March-2005, 11:57 PM

DHM in its solid form is even more deadly.

Gramma loreto · #14 (**permalink**) 22-March-2005, 12:32 AM

I think this DHM hype is way overblown. Prudently used in reasonable quantities, it poses minimal health hazards and is, in fact, quite beneficial. In fact, I have tapped an underground source of it near my home and utilize it on a daily basis. I use it as a thermal conductor in my home's heating system. I find that it greatly improves the performance of many household cleansers. In my kitchen, it's absolutely essential to gourmet cooking.

Better living through modern chemistry!

die Nullte · #15 (**permalink**) 22-March-2005, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gramma loreto

I think this DHM hype is way overblown. Prudently used in reasonable quantities, it poses minimal health hazards and is, in fact, quite beneficial. In fact, I have tapped an underground source of it near my home and utilize it on a daily basis. I use it as a thermal conductor in my home's heating system. I find that it greatly improves the performance of many household cleansers. In my kitchen, it's absolutely essential to gourmet cooking.

Better living through modern chemistry!

Are you exposing your children to this highly dangerous chemical? If so, the authorities may wish to have a word with you. You know, people can die from carelessly ingesting large amounts of dihydrogen monoxide. I suppose large quantities in the liquid state are uncommon in Alaska at this time of year.

Edited to add: I just remembered: there's a vast reservoir of liquid dihydrogen monoxide off the Alaska coast. Worse -- the stuff is contaminated with all manner of salts and other chemicals. The peril is extreme!

Van Rijn · #16 (**permalink**) 22-March-2005, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by die Nullte

Edited to add: I just remembered: there's a vast reservoir of liquid dihydrogen monoxide off the Alaska coast. Worse -- the stuff is contaminated with all manner of salts and other chemicals. The peril is extreme!

No kidding! At those temperatures, a short exposure to that stuff can easily be fatal. Meanwhile, we are still in our DHM season, and it is FALLING FROM THE SKIES AS I WRITE. So far, our defensive barriers are holding and we live on high ground, but ....well, I'm pretty sure we'll make it.

Kaptain K · #17 (**permalink**) 22-March-2005, 12:01 PM

Quote:

DHM in its solid form is even more deadly.

Saturday, a friend's car was severely damaged when 1-2 cm pellets of the stuff fell out of the sky!

Astronot · #18 (**permalink**) 22-March-2005, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van Rijn

Meanwhile, we are still in our DHM season...

We will be coming into the most dangerous part DHM season on the Gulf Coast in a few months. In a bulk liquid form, when mixed with salt and heated, the stuff is implicated in the formation of dangerous cyclonic storms. These storms transport DHM onto land where it has been proven to cause severe property damage* and even death. The government should act immediately to remove all DHM from tropical areas.

* Although to be fair, driving your car into a filled underpass can hardly be blamed on the presence of DHM!

Rue · #19 (**permalink**) 22-March-2005, 04:28 PM

If you have ever seen how DM reacts to high tempuratures you'll know it's enough to boil an egg!

Sigma_Orionis · #20 (**permalink**) 22-March-2005, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayUtah

DHM in its solid form is even more deadly.

specially during a hail storm......