exactly, and it was well above 18000 ft...

Have you tried learning instead of just believing?

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"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Reading this thread from the start would be a good education in debunking 'Chemtrails'

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Not that it will change anyone's mind, but here's a cool picture taken by an astronaut, showing a contrail as seen from space.

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Meet the OOONG TOE.

cool pic, slang!

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This is an example of the texas sharpshooter fallacy, or, perhaps, more akin to the anthropic principle. Basically, some flights will have the right conditions at certain times, and these are the ones that will leave the trails.

Your incredulity is strange here, it is as though I told you that the lottery would be won most weeks here in the UK, and you said "Are you telling me that in every case, the person just happened to guess the numbers in advance? I don't think so!"

Why are you struggling with this? When conditions are right, persistent trails form, when they are not, they don't. The null hypothesis is not ruled out by their existence, no matter how sarcastic or snide your comments are, or how much bold you use, I'm afraid.

Oh, and what's an "associate degree"? I don't think that we have those here.

The Associate's Degree is a two-year degree.

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

Thanks, I did not know that such things existed.

Ignoring the obvious, one could easily assume the changes we have seen in the past 20 years in the appearace of jet contrails was a result of the recent reformulation of jet fuel and changes in engine design and the increase in air traffic. There is no question that lingering contrails have existed since the beginning of high altitude aviation, but what made me wonder is how a sunny day can be observed by time lapsed photography morphing into an overcast one , the causitive factor being spreading and lingering jet contrails. I had never seen anything like that before 1998. Most of us here can remember a time when the sky appeared a different shade of blue entirely on a clear day, these days are now almost gone forever. EVen on the clearest of day, a blueish haze can always be seen toward the horizon when the line of sight is 10 miles or more, Ther is no exception, yet this was not always true. To claim nothing has changed would be dishonest or ignorant, or perhaps a lack of observational skills and memory. So is there anything to the chemtrail 'hoax'? Having researched this phenomenon for 10 years now I can confidently reply YES. The primary methodollogy was a reformulation of aviation jet fuel and the operation is known as 'operation cloverleaf'. There is absolutely no doubt that this is real, and the conspiracy theories are simply a result of ignorance on the part of the 'believers', who tend to think in terms of everything being a plot against humanity. What I have discovered (and compiled extensive correlating evidence of) is an ongoing attempt to mitigate global warming by altering the reflective properties of the atmosphere.

I am testing a theory to determine if I will be a participant here any longer, and if it si worthwhile to do so. It seems certain phrases are blocked here
test

operation cloverleaf

test

So I guess that wasn't it. Why did my last post require the approval of a moderator before it could be posted?

Well, anyway, I have no idea why my post was censored, but if I do not see it posted I can assume that no effective arguement will be allowed here.
Basically, what I said was that I had been researching this phenemenon for ten years and determined that it was real, and that I had extensive co relating evidence that proves its methodollogy, purpose and the evident changes that can esily be observed in the atmosphere. Not allowing one side of a debate to present ther evidence is suspicious indeed. I see I will need to copy my posts henchforth before I post them here.

If you put a link in a post, it will be approved before being posted. This is to prevent spammers from plaguing the site. After a handful of posts (what, 10? something like that?) you'll have shown not to be a spammer and this "restriction" will be lifted.

Don't worry, no conspiracy going on.

There were no links in either post that was blocked. I simply stated the purpose of chemtrails and how they were implemented, along with the easily observable evidence.

I personally think it is obvious what happened and why. Any game can be won if the referees are in your pocket. Prove me wrong and replace the posts in they order they occured.

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You believe the moderators are removing your posts to prevent you from making a case for your argument? I don't know the moderators that well, but I doubt it. However, I can say that if you refer to this thread, Link, you'll find that the conspiracy-theory section is being limited to astronomy-related ones.

Perhaps that's something to do with it.

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Ah, alright. =). I'm new around here too. :P

I take it that it was the length of the post? I see it has been posted now.
I have no agenda here other than telling you and the others here what I know, and maybe learning more myself.

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Not that I was that concerned with the sky when I was a lad, I certainly knew when someone had flown abroad for a holiday. It was not exactly cheap and it was Porthcawl or Bognor Regis or Blackpool for most families. But I would not say nothing has changed, I would say air travel is more than affordable and the skies are crowded compared to yesteryear. No research on my part for that, just an observation.

I would also question the clarity, one could drive over a hill towards Birmingham (UK) and see a purple fug surrounding the city. I assume that it was not aircraft but traffic. Birmingham surrounded by roads.

So I would ask what research you have done and how have you ruled out the two above.

CONSPIRACY REALIST are you a believer in chemtrails? The chemtrail conspiracy is the theory that contrails are not actually water vapor condensation but are actually entirely composed of chemicals. You seem to believe that contrails are condensation, not chemical - but that they are being created on purpose. That's a very different thing than what chemtrail believers believe.

I recommend you start a new thread either way. It's free you know.

And for the record, it's a well-known and undisputed fact that the number of contrails has increased dramatically in the last several decades. It's also a well known and undisputed fact that these additional contrails reduce the amount of sunlight that makes it to the Earth's surface. The result is that temperatures don't climb as high during the day, but they also don't fall as low during the night.

All of that is well known. Nobody here is going to argue any of that. If you're suggesting that the government is doing this on purpose, that's going to be very difficult to prove. I'm going to want to hear what additives they are putting into jet fuel. And I'm going to want some explanation of how these additives cause more contrails than would otherwise be created. And I'm sure that if I ask the airlines about these additives, they will tell me that the additives serve some other purpose, perhaps increasing fuel efficiency, so I'm going to want to see you address that.

I hope that you have more than simply, "I had never seen anything like that before 1998" because that's an incredibly weak argument.

In summary:
1. you say there are more contrails.
My response: yes that's true. It's because there are more jets in the air.

2. you say the additional contrails affect the weather.
My response: yes that's true. Nobody doubts that.

3. you say fuel additives contribute to contrails.
My response: a) please prove it. b) please tell me what the airlines claim the additives are for (example: improve fuel effeciency) c) prove that the airlines are lying.

4. you say there is a government program to create contrails
My response: prove it.

Good luck. Again, I really recommend that you start a new thread because it looks like your ideas are different than what's been discussed in the rest of this thread.

Actually I think Conspiracy Theorist is supposed to be preparing answers for his other thread...

Certainly contrails affect the weather, but this is an unintended consequence rather than an intended consequence; and on balance they increase global warming rather than decrease it (because of the vast amounts of CO2 the airplanes pump out, and because high hazy clouds can trap heat as well as reflect it back into space).

So as attempt to mitigate global warming, increasing the number of contrails seems singularly ill-advised.

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Due to anonymous sources being cited as evidence of the existence of the so-called "Operation Cloverleaf," I would remain highly skeptical if I were you -- too much of a chance that this is a "fabricated reality."

An excerpt from "Playing God with the atmosphere - the 'Shield Project' or 'Operation Cloverleaf'" (2003), originally titled, "Playing God with the weather," by Bruce Conway:
Mr. Holmes linked to Clifford E. Carnicom's site:
Mr. Carnicom posted "An Airline Manager's Statement" to his site on May 22, 2000. On August 20, 2003, Carnicom issued a general statement concerning "Cloverleaf."

"Chemtrails Said Part Of Top Secret Military Maneuvers," by Mike Blair - The Spotlight (print edition), October 9, 2000.

Related: "Operation Raindance"

Additional reading:
Unilateral Geoengineering

As someone with several thousand hours flying more than one type of large aircraft (wake cats c through e), I find the chemtrail allegations ridiculously silly and utterly without merit.

I have.

Not in my country.

There is in my country.

Except in Los Angeles, but that was back in the 70's. The mandatory use of catalytic converters and slow phase-in of cleaner-burning engines solved that problem.

Aside from the mistaken beliefs of the volumes of people behind it?

No.

I love research. Please tell me - who supplied your grants? Have you published your research like 99.9% of others who conduct research, formulating hypotheses, testing, and find conclusions? If so, what's the title of your paper? Where may we obtain a copy so as to contribute to the science-based peer-review process?

Odd that a scientist conduction research would misspell "methodology..."

Aviation Jet Fuel is available to anyone who wishes to walk up to the pump and purchase a gallon. Here in Colorado Springs, it'll cost you $3.99 a gallon at Cutter Aviation, but you can get it from Colorado jetCenter for $3.92.

Among the CT's. Among the rest of the community, including most of the scientific community, we have yet to see any basis in fact behind these speculations.

Such as this gem: "...keep the prisoners – preoccupied with their health and the day-to-day grind, genetically incapable of making the jump into
hyper-space. Voila! --the chemtrails."

Actually, the types of clouds produced by contrails, and the resulting translucent layers of cloud haze, serve to increase global warming, not reduce it. Solar influxe is comprised of many different frequencies, and those layers allow most of it in. Some of the influx is reflected directly, while the rest is converted into heat, which radiates outward in IR, and those clouds are large IR reflectors, acting as a nice, warm blanket to hold that heat in.

It's the reason behind the phrase "cold, clear nights." When the sky is clear, the Earth's heat is free to radiate away. The least reduction between evening temps and early morning temps occurs during periods of all-night haze and overcast, just as the greatest 24-means for temps occurs during periods of light haze which let in most of the solar influx while blanketing most of the IR.

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If I set the budget, we'd have Ares and more. Unfortunately, I don't set the budget, and Ares is just too expensive and too far out for us to accomplish our goals within the budget we were given.

If we halt the ISS, all versions of Ares, and transport Orion and Altair aboard DIRECTv3's Jupiter family of Shuttle-Derived Launch Vehicles, we just might make it back to the Moon by 2020.