All of this, of course, is why you shouldn't smoke in the shower on a carrier.

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"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - William Thompson, 1st Baron Lord Kelvin

"If it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be, but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic!" - Tweedledee

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. - Wolfgang Pauli

Mr. C, have you ever seen some poor soul, ignorant of the immediate consequences, light up a cigarette on the flightdeck? With God watching? Especially a civilian? (Its funnier, believe me)

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"The beauty of that discussion of averages is that you don't have to be an expert in Apollo or in photography in order to see where this time study "analysis" breaks down. You just have to be, well...not an idiot." -JayUtah

They can, and part of the weather briefing is (was? it's been a while since I was in the air force, not as a pilot tho') at which altitudes contrails are expected, and those are generally avoided. Contrails are a little to convenient for opponents to get a visual on you

Can't say as I have since most of my ship riding has been done since the Navy essentially banned smoking on ships in the early 90's. I still remember my first trip out, though, on the ancient USS Coral Sea back in 1989. The already dim atmosphere in CDC was made even spookier by the smoke hovering around the lights in the overhead. I do recall, however, that the water on Kitty Hawk had a distinct tang of jet fuel. That's where I first heard the gag about smoking in the shower.

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"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - William Thompson, 1st Baron Lord Kelvin

"If it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be, but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic!" - Tweedledee

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. - Wolfgang Pauli

That's right, I got out in '83. Good. A lot less fires I bet.

(I'm just two seconds from leaving for a nature hike to this incredable frog pond up north near Lake Berryessa or I'd write a story. I'll see how I feel when I get back.)

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"The beauty of that discussion of averages is that you don't have to be an expert in Apollo or in photography in order to see where this time study "analysis" breaks down. You just have to be, well...not an idiot." -JayUtah

They can, and part of the weather briefing is (was? it's been a while since I was in the air force, not as a pilot tho') at which altitudes contrails are expected, and those are generally avoided. Contrails are a little to convenient for opponents to get a visual on you

That's what I was thinking about that Air Force commercial featuring a tight turning F-22 that appeared to be pulling a lot of contrails. Sure didn't look visually stealthy to me.

We have frogs in our garden pond, no need to hike anywhere

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'The eye can only see what the mind is prepared to accept'

I don't think that those are actually contrails like those created from exhaust particles. They occur during high G turns, and you can see them sometimes during demo flights (if we're talking about the same thing). I don't know exactly how the vapour comes about but I suspect it has something to do with radically different air pressures.

Anyway, my point is, if an opponent is close enough that such turns are needed, a little more visibility doesn't matter all that much, and within visual range, stealth doesn't matter much. Contrails however give clues from distances where the aircraft itself isn't even visible yet.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin

"Ignorance convinces" -- slang's dad

I live 5 miles from Patrick AFB. At an air show several years ago, a B-2 was scheduled to make a flyover, and there were two F-117s (1 static display and 1 to fly.) When the B-2 flew over at ~1000 ft, a woman standing next to me indignantly proclaimed "I knew that plane was no good, I can see it just fine!" The F-117 crews got a big kick when I repeated that.

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"I want to write about people I love, and put them into a fictional world spun out of my own mind, not the world we actually have, because the world we actually have does not meet my standards." Philip K. Dick
No matter how strong, or brave, or pure of heart you may be; sometimes the dragon wins!

I posted a comment on that pointing out that it was the contrail's shadow. My comment was deleted and for some reason I can't post another one.

I guess the truth and facts aren't allowed to cloud up the issue.

tbm

Here is the message I got from the poster of the video on Youtube after he deleted my post:

"New Reply to Your Comment

ozobezleeb has replied to your comment. To read the reply, go to the comments for "The black chemtrail.."
Comment from ozobezleeb:
Don't talk bollocks, The sun is behind me, also what is it cast upon in the all but clear sky?
Twat...
- The YouTube Team"

VERY scientific,

tbm

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Paddle faster!! I hear banjo music!!

They are a different type. From here
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/...a-wr-l-474.pdf
we can see contrails classified into three different types, exhaust, convection and aerodynamic. What we can also see is that way back in 1942 the science behind contrail formation was well known and that science said even then that given the right conditions contrails can and would persist. "Chemtrail" proponents main argument is that contrails always dissipate quickly. This paper and many other disproves that quickly.

i can also confirm that the contrail altitudes are still briefed for fighter pilots before every sortie. At least they did for F-15s just 2 years ago. As already mentioned, the formation of a contrail makes the plane visible at much greater distances than without. If the enemy can tell where you are visually before you are even in his radar range than he doesn't have to search and can get a lock more quickly. Of course this can also be used against the enemy. Have one set of fighters conning and making themselves visible but staying out of range while the other set comes in and takes out the enemy fighter from a different vector.

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"Eternal vigilance is the price of supremacy"
------------Mark Twain

"Women are like Voltron. The more you can hook up, the better it gets."

Right, those are just condensation. The same as you see coming off of wingtips or when you're landing on a commercial jet and they hang out the flaps, on a humid day. As far as I know they come from having the water vapor bashed out of the air by fast moving objects and it just condenses and blow off.

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You're a coward and a liar and a thOOF - Bart Sibrel

Ooh! That's delightfully sneaky. What was the name of that Vietnam War mission where a group of Phantoms pretended to be Thuds? Similar kind of low, dirty, underhanded cheating so devious that even the enemy has to applaud you. :-)

I don't think that those are actually contrails like those created from exhaust particles. They occur during high G turns, and you can see them sometimes during demo flights (if we're talking about the same thing). I don't know exactly how the vapour comes about but I suspect it has something to do with radically different air pressures.

Most of the time, the trails you see during high G turns comes from the wingtips as seen in this photo, not the engines like they did in that commercial. If the conditions are right, the wingtip trails can happen in level flight.

Perhaps what I saw in the commercial was a smoke generator like for an airshow or perhaps they were deliberately pulling contrails for dramatic effect. It sure didn't look stealthy to me but it was pretty cool.

Operation Bolo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bolo

ha!
I have never heard the term "Chemtrail" until today. But i would venture to guess that some of the contrails that seem to linger for hours have barium oxide in the exhaust.
in 1989 the Air force experimented with barium oxide to reduce the amount of NOx in the exhaust of jets.

here is a paper outlining the research.
http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=...fier=ADA294773

furthermore, a U.S. Patent #: 5,003,186, titled `Stratospheric Welsbach Seeding for Reduction of Global Warming," also details how to add barium and aluminum oxides to the fuel to change the reflectivity of the atmosphere to mitigate global warming.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5003186.html

Apparently other added benefit of adding metal particles to the atmosphere includes better radio communications.

the initial research was started in 1988 so who knows what is being done now.
I am sure that some people think this is bad.

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Disclaimer: I have no theories, I am not smart enough to come up with theories. I only have a hypothesis. So anything I may write, statement or otherwise is just a hypothesis based on what I observe...

The difference between a correlation and a causation... Everyone who drinks water dies... Water makes things wet...

In high humidity conditions, you can get the same effect off prop tips, but they don't hang around very long.

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I am Mugs, of the Alien clan of Usa, Nordamerica, a Terran, of Sol.

Perception isn't reality. It's merely an abstraction thereof, and quite often not a very good one at that.

I am human. Fully human.

I don't suppose you could find a link to that commercial? I'm getting a little curious now

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin

"Ignorance convinces" -- slang's dad

I updated my last po