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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 21-April-2005, 06:41 PM
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JayUtah JayUtah is offline
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Cosmic Dave doesn't understand the first thing about computers, especially embedded systems. An embedded system is different than your typical laptop or desktop. Very different.

In the AGC one doesn't "load" a program into memory as what is done in a general-purpose computer. The program is already in read-only memory and can run from there; there is no disk. It just has to be identified to the operating system as a program that needs to be run in the regular rotation. That was the reason why programs were activated and deactivated through the various phases of the flight.

Now in truth the erasable memory was allocated and deallocated. And one of the 120x program alarms had to do with the allocation of an erasable memory block. But the allocation scheme was a combination of dynamic and static assignments, as well as shared memory. The mix of programs had to be carefully controlled ahead of time so that the static assignments wouldn't stomp on each other.

But obviously the landing and takeoff programs could use the same allocation because they would never be run simultaneously.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 21-April-2005, 06:57 PM
sts60 sts60 is offline
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The simulation programs on today's PCs require so much hardware because there is a whacking great bloated operating system (Windows, for all that CD is familiar with), which by itself consumes enormous resources, and a program that must drive all the fancy graphics and sound effects.

Computers like the AGC don't really have much in the way of an operating system, and don't need to make pretty pictures. I've written spacecraft code on a system that had no OS at all. It had, IIRC, 128K each of EEROM and static RAM, and we didn't use all of either, and the code wasn't optimized for space (memory, that is) at all.

So, just to pile on to what's been said - no, CosmicDave's arguments about Apollo computers are based on sheer, shared ignorance - his own and that of those who buy into his blitherings.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 21-April-2005, 08:48 PM
Jason Thompson Jason Thompson is offline
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OK, I know I'm coming in late, but here's a few points I could come up with:

Quote:
2) The pure oxygen atmosphere in the module would have melted the Hasselblad's camera covering and produced poisonous gases. Why weren't the astronauts affected?
No attempt is made to explain why a pure oxygen atmosphere at 5psi would have melted the camera covering. There is no sensible reason for it.

Quote:
4) When the LEMs were supposedly leaving the Moon, they should have produced a large bright exhaust flame from the rocket propellant. Instead, zero exhaust. (I have turned this one around and have found evidence of a flame on one ascent of the LEM... just to prove the sceptics wrong!)
What Dave doesn't seem to realise here is that he has undermined his entire argument. His parenthetical statement boils down to his having found a piece of footage that satisfies a condition he says was not satisfied.

Quote:
10) How did the fibreglass whip antenna on the Gemini 6A capsule survive the tremendous heat of atmospheric re-entry?
The same way the parachutes did; by being deployed after re-entry.

Quote:
1 The astronauts in these "pressurized" suits were easily able to bend their fingers, wrists, elbows, and knees at 5.2 p.s.i. and yet a boxer's 4 p.s.i. speed bag is virtually unbendable. The guys would have looked like balloon men if the suits had actually been pressurized.
Firstly, the sapecsuits were pressurised only to about 4psi, not 5. Secondly, a boxer's speedbag is designed to be unbendable, whereas a spacesuit glove is designed to bend at the knuckles.

As for the balloon men argument, obviously he does not know what a restraint layer is.

Quote:
19) How did the astronauts leave the LEM? in the documentary 'PaperMoon' The host measures a replica of the LEM at The Space Centre in Houston, what he finds is that the 'official' measurements released by NASA are bogus and that the astronauts could not have got out of the LEM...
This one never fails to amuse me. I don't care what measurements of replicas were made after the event, because the EVA TV footage and photographic record is replete with images of the astronauts going in and out of the LM! If I see lots of TV of someone moving in and out of a hatch, I reasonably conclude it is big enough for them to get through.

Quote:
Quote:
26) The Apollo 1 fire of January 27, 1967, killed what would have been the first crew to walk on the Moon just days after the commander, Gus Grissom, held an unapproved press conference complaining that they were at least ten years, not two, from reaching the Moon. The dead man's own son, who is a seasoned pilot himself, has in his possession forensic evidence personally retrieved from the charred spacecraft (that the government has tried to destroy on two or more occasions).

First of all this is just slanderous non-sense without proof. Secondly, you haven't mention what Gus's son actually has and how it prooves ill-will on anyone's part. He just has it in his posession.
Firstly, it is no more than speculation that the Apollo 1 fire killed the first crew to walk on the Moon. All that was certain at that point was that they would be the first to fly Apollo hardware in Earth orbit.

Secondly, Scott Grissom possessed a small piece of metal that he contended was used as a 'tripper' to short out some wiring and make the spark that started the fire. An investigation concluded that this piece of metal was part of a asupport bracket for the instrument panel, cut from the bracket during the disassembly process after the fire, and therefore could not have been used in the manner suggested.

Quote:
Over the past few months I have been having a debate with several members of the 'Bad Astronomy' website. Bad Astronomy is a website that is a general meeting place for people who think that they can explain the hoax theories concerning the Apollo program and the site also goes into detail on other anomalies that show up on space footage that they think is easily explained. During my time debating on their site, I was issued several challenges by sceptics who said that if I could show 'official NASA footage' showing certain anomalies, then that evidence MAY make them think that something is definitely amiss with the NASA Apollo footage. Needless to say that, as at the time of writing, none of them have come forward and changed their stance.

The three main challenges were

1. Produce pictures showing stars that are taken on the Moons surface. They say because of the very bright conditions on the Moon, stars would not be visible from its surface!

2. Show an example of Movie footage that was taken aboard the Lunar Rover whilst it is in motion. (I asked the site how could the satellite dish at the front of the rover relay the video signal to a satellite or Houston if it was moving all over the place?). I was even told that this footage does not exist?... see below

3. If I could provide film footage of the LEM producing a flame on the Moons surface (This would prove that the movie was not taken on the Moon because the Moons atmosphere and vacuum would prevent such a flame).

That was the challenge... and here is the evidence... Enjoy ;o)
1: Dave produce some images with some spots in the sky. They could not be stars due to the previously explained and well-known limitations of exposure time and film sensitivity. He simply observes some white dots in the sky of some photos and presumes they are stars.

2: There is a very short section of TV footage of the rover in motion, when the camera was inadvertently left activated during a traverse and a brief section of the travel aligned the antenna with Earth. There is also at least one shot of the rover driving before the camera was mounted on it, when the camera was still wired up to the LM communications system. All other footage of the rover in motion, and I'm willing to bet the footage Dave has provided (though I confess I cannot play the clips so may be wrong there), was captured on 16mm film and was never transmitted from the surface.

3; If he met that challenge he debunked one of his own arguments.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 21-April-2005, 09:09 PM
JohnW JohnW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Thompson
Quote:
19) How did the astronauts leave the LEM? in the documentary 'PaperMoon' The host measures a replica of the LEM at The Space Centre in Houston, what he finds is that the 'official' measurements released by NASA are bogus and that the astronauts could not have got out of the LEM...
This one never fails to amuse me. I don't care what measurements of replicas were made after the event, because the EVA TV footage and photographic record is replete with images of the astronauts going in and out of the LM! If I see lots of TV of someone moving in and out of a hatch, I reasonably conclude it is big enough for them to get through.
I know I'm wasting my time applying common sense to this nonsense, but here's something I just thought of. So we have this vast conspiracy to fake the lunar landings. And they're prepared to keep it secret for ever, even if it means killing many people off. Meanwhile, a museum run by the conspirators displays a copy of the landing craft, demonstrating conclusively that it's impossible to get in and out of said craft. And it remains on display for years and years.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 21-April-2005, 09:17 PM
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Part of my point is that the extra memory required for liftoff claim made by cosmic dave is meant to apply to the modern pc in the argument. If he doesnt understand how the pc works how can he make a meaningful comparison with the AGC? Even then the AGC and a modern pc are very differnt beasts and comparisons are of little relevance. One is designed to be general purpose and one designed to be efficient at performing a small number of tasks with little overhead. I'm rather familiar with the requirements of simulating a 3d lunar lander on the pc as im kludging together one myself and i agree the AGC isnt upto simulating a landing like a pc does, but thats not what it was in place to do. The comparison is meaningless even excepting the misuderstandings.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 22-April-2005, 01:39 AM
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In debate you run into this all the time. Often an argument will have both a faulty inference and an untenable premise. It's not always wise to point out both. It's usually better to pick one. In this case I would point out the difference between a general purpose computer and an embedded system and omit the argument that Dave doesn't understand computers -- any computer.
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Old 22-April-2005, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob B.
I haven't looked at the video but, if it's the one I think it is, I may have an explanation. Remember that the space suits are pressurized, thus the limbs of the suits naturally seek a straightened position. It takes effort to bend at, say, the knee. In the video I recall, the astronaut gave himself a little push with his hand and then straightened out his legs and quickly popped up to his feet. He could have been using the pressure inside the suit to give himself a little boost (like a coiled spring).



Does everyone agree that this is the one we are sticking with,or does anyone whant to ad something 8-[
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Old 22-April-2005, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazzard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob B.
In the video I recall, the astronaut gave himself a little push with his hand and then straightened out his legs and quickly popped up to his feet.
Does everyone agree that this is the one we are sticking with,or does anyone whant to ad something
No that's not the video in question. In this video the astronaut is helped up by his buddy, essentially as Nicolas noted he has his hand on the other astronaut's shoulder, and people mistake his chest mounted camera for his left hand.
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Old 22-April-2005, 10:10 AM
Rockytech1 Rockytech1 is offline
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Thanks !

That site is annoying me rather then entertaining me for some reason. Most others I just laugh at but this one is boring me because it is the same old same old arguments.
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Old 22-April-2005, 11:13 AM
Johnno Johnno is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockytech1
Most others I just laugh at but this one is boring me because it is the same old same old arguments.
Well, at least he noted that there was video footage taken while the rover was driving, and since you can only tape the live feed from the tv camera on the rover, clearly it was a hoax since the rover has to be standing still for the tv camera to operate.

the fact that he failed to note that the tv camera is actually in view in the footage, and that this shows that it was footage from one of the handheld video cameras and not the live tv feed is kind of mindboggling.

but hey, whatever it takes, eh?
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 22-April-2005, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnno
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazzard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob B.
In the video I recall, the astronaut gave himself a little push with his hand and then straightened out his legs and quickly popped up to his feet.
Does everyone agree that this is the one we are sticking with,or does anyone whant to ad something
No that's not the video in question. In this video the astronaut is helped up by his buddy, essentially as Nicolas noted he has his hand on the other astronaut's shoulder, and people mistake his chest mounted camera for his left hand.
Correct. In the video I was referring too there was only one astronaut. Obviously you guys are talking about a different video that I haven't seen yet (or if I have, I don't recall it).
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Old 22-April-2005, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazzard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob B.
I haven't looked at the video but, if it's the one I think it is, I may have an explanation. Remember that the space suits are pressurized, thus the limbs of the suits naturally seek a straightened position. It takes effort to bend at, say, the knee. In the video I recall, the astronaut gave himself a little push with his hand and then straightened out his legs and quickly popped up to his feet. He could have been using the pressure inside the suit to give himself a little boost (like a coiled spring).



Does everyone agree that this is the one we are sticking with,or does anyone whant to ad something 8-[
I already said that at the end of the footage, I see that the astronauts holds his left hand on the other astronaut's shoulder. And that during the first part of the footage, people think they see his left arm, but it's the cam. I think the left arm already is on the shoulder the, but the footage is in too low quality to see. to do the first part of the move, he appears to use is pressure suit indeed. I think the total covers it. Maybe some more research into the usage of the suit as an "air spring"?
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